AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Fairwing]

I like self damage as balance mechanic on aoe weapons.  It provides a risk/reward mechanic that would make players use aoe more carefully rather than spamming.  Nerfing aoe weapons will just push people to use aoe frames instead.  There are a bunch of launcher type aoe weapons that are not in a good place e.g. torid, penta that will be hit hard by the nerfs.  Secura penta is effective at landing aoe headshots because you can detonate the shell over mobs heads.  DEs response seems like a knee jerk response to kuva bramma while failing to address the relatively weak launcher weapons that will also be adversely affected..

[(PSN)rexis12]

Just now, ThommiX said:

You should watch latest devstream which proves everything you said completely wrong.

Have fun!

Did they talk about how they made a game where enemies range in the hundreds on every mission?

Did they talk about how each of those hundred enemies can all deal enough damage to kill you unless you have the absurd DR that most of the Frames have (You know how insane it is that every DR in the game is 90%?!)

Did they talk about how killing enemies is the only way to move forward, with certain missions failing you if you DON'T kill fast enough?

Did they talk about how enemies, when not grouped up, are all spread out in every direction under the sun and the only weapon that can go through walls by base is AoE with single target weapons needing an expensive Mod Slot to have a gimped version of it?

No, they didn't. They talked about automation, and how needing to use AoE feels like the only/correct way to do things but did not delve into Why people want Automation and why people think it's the right way.

Like the Dev stream was still better than last time, the dumb 'CC is the problem' while AoE still reigned supreme due to Overguard. But they didn't talk jack about the actual issues about why people use AoE so much.

[MekaDovah]

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I just discussed this with a friend as well who really enjoys where AoE gameplay has gone (old players all know there's always been a flavor of AoE in our major builds). I asked them a simple question.

Do you really enjoy the gameplay, or just reducing the time between loading into a mission and seeing an extraction/mission results screen?

I think many players who favor specifically playing this way are likely to admit that the game in between nuking entire tilesets at a time is not interesting to them anymore, but they are still stuck in the hamster wheel of rewards, dopamine, FOMO, and sunk cost fallacy about the game. I know it's a broad stroke to apply to many opinions that want the current AoE situation to be untouched, but I feel this same observation was made by Brozime in his Devstream 163 overview. He talks about how the situation is heavily influenced by the recycling of defense/mobile defense objectives. When you introduce a mission like Void Flood, Void Cascade, or Disruption, things like Wuclone abuse or random AoE weapon spam just aren't as compelling, especially in the scaling department, because other options will actually be better suited for the objective.

Is it possible people also crave the efficiency of killing hordes quickly to avoid dying to said hordes? Or perhaps the matter is one of efficiency? One fight is a novelty. Hundreds is more of a chore.

I just feel the question has more to it than "love it or hate it."

[trst]

Honestly they might as well bring it back in a further nerfed state just for good measure. Making it hard capped at some % of your hp while having access to things like shield gating, Cautious shot, self-immune abilities, and Last Gasp would make it not instantly punishing and avoidable if built for. But would discourage running through a mission aiming at your own feet.

 

19 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

this is most of the time why I'm glad DE doesn't take forum opinions seriously

self damage was crap, and was shot dead for good reason. no need to bring it back from the dead

33 minutes ago, mycroft_ said:

You're right.

If DE didn't take forum suggestions seriously then we would still be using damage 1.0 rainbow builds with Puncture based weapons, still have movement 1.0 (stamina, wall running, no bullet/double jump), frame reworks wouldn't happen for non-problematic frames, alerts would still exist while Nightwave wouldn't. vacuum would still be Carrier exclusive, and self damage would still exist.

I could go on but I think you get the point. The community has dictated the majority of the game's development decision.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Fairwing:

I like self damage as balance mechanic on aoe weapons.  It provides a risk/reward mechanic that would make players use aoe more carefully rather than spamming.  Nerfing aoe weapons will just push people to use aoe frames instead.  There are a bunch of launcher type aoe weapons that are not in a good place e.g. torid, penta that will be hit hard by the nerfs.  Secura penta is effective at landing aoe headshots because you can detonate the shell over mobs heads.  DEs response seems like a knee jerk response to kuva bramma while failing to address the relatively weak launcher weapons that will also be adversely affected..

and ignis wraith needs so much skill. and you can hold the left mouse button here and not pay attention to the ammo display.
skill without end.
Yes Yes Yes.....
great fairy tales here. and hf in arbi

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb MekaDovah:

Is it possible people also crave the efficiency of killing hordes quickly to avoid dying to said hordes? Or perhaps the matter is one of efficiency? One fight is a novelty. Hundreds is more of a chore.

I just feel the question has more to it than "love it or hate it."

not even a top aoe weapon with riven like kuva zarr can save a warframe with low armor on sp against ranged.
such warframes die here after 3-5 seconds. and with single target???? lol... no need to even try.

[(PSN)rexis12]

4 minutes ago, MekaDovah said:

Is it possible people also crave the efficiency of killing hordes quickly to avoid dying to said hordes

Preach!

Like do you have any idea how many times I was having fun playing like Harrow with a single Target weapon, dying due to the fact while I was focusing on one shmuck the 15 others in the room blasted me dead at the time.

And I decided to say 'Screw it' and summoned my On-Call crew mate to deal with the massive hordes that can kill me unless I literally go invincible for like... 6 seconds to avoid dying immediately.

 

[Kaggelos]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

they don't even play the game. they have no idea about balance or whatever.
coder staring at program code 8 hours a day. and project managers stare at mindless statistics.

that's why you can only laugh at their decisions. because there is no clue or logic.
they don't even read forums...

Bruh. Most of your posts are aggressive towards everyone (Devs, Tenno etc).  

I hope you're doing ok.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

To address in reverse order... 

I mean, lots of players already play Warframe with non-AOE guns, myself included, and it feels proper. Why would DE Devs be a surprise? I was too lazy to swap my Eidolon hunting build the other day, and took Trinity + Rubico into Steel Path Exterminate and was fine. Granted if it were Survival, might have had to use my melee more or a gun like Phantasma, Tenora Prime etc

DE also nerfed the Glaive Prime. Yet I can still go into a Steel Path room and kill a small room of enemies easily. Nerf is a relative term. Lets not nerf our language and ability to communicate by throwing terms around to ill effect. 

DE designed the game to be a floof collector game. Stating this doesn't mean its true. Usually how accurate or valid our statement seems, requires the reasoning or information we surround it with, to support it. Personally I think its more complicated to try and explain Warframe, as far as what it is/should be, especially since unlike a lot of games, DE is a FTP with ongoing updates/revisions, and the game is very very different now than from launch. Its also a bit funny to me, to imply DE designed something as a past tense. the notion of adhering to that, and then also questioning DE in the present. 

[MekaDovah]

Just now, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Preach!

Like do you have any idea how many times I was having fun playing like Harrow with a single Target weapon, dying due to the fact while I was focusing on one shmuck the 15 others in the room blasted me dead at the time.

And I decided to say 'Screw it' and summoned my On-Call crew mate to deal with the massive hordes that can kill me unless I literally go invincible for like... 6 seconds to avoid dying immediately.

 

I remember in the early days of this game how "get to cover" turned out to be a pretty big lie when, no matter what I got behind, there was always someone behind me somehow. I think spawn mechanics have changed since then since that doesn't really happen anymore. For me, there always has to be a way to deal with getting hit, because it's going to happen, and the "meta" advice was useless to me so I had to figure out my own way to get by.

If we want diversity and variety in this (or any) game, we need to not only be accepting and encouraging of other styles of play, but be willing to actually use proper teamwork and give a little to cooperate with others of different styles as well. 

[Krion112]

2 hours ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

I see people commonly bring up shield gating will apparently protect you from getting one shotted. Yeah, here's the thing: shield gating won't do jack as it won't work if you're given a headshot or an explosive shot. Proof of that is that you try it on a Corpus unit or any other unit that has the luxury of shield gating, nearly all the time you can still one-shot them with a Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr, Sporelacer or any other AoE weapon.

Enemy Shield Gating works different that Player Shield Gating; when an Enemy's Shields break, the gate only stops the rest of the damage in that single attack, but doesn't stop the next attack, which means it can be bypassed with Multishot.
By comparison, when a Player's Shields break, you are given momentary damage immunity from all sources, so even if you're hit by multiple attacks, Shield Gating stops all of the damage, not just the damage from a single attack.

Likewise, the headshot bypass I think only works on AoE weapons if your attack directly hits the target's head, which would be basically impossible to do in regards to self-damage. (I'm also not sure if the headshot bypass even works on Player Shield Gating at all)
However, even if the AoE itself can somehow cause that, during the latest devstream, they said AoE Weapons will no longer be able to score headshots at all, so either way, it's a moot point in regards to headshots bypassing shield gating.

[Voltage]

49 minutes ago, MekaDovah said:

Is it possible people also crave the efficiency of killing hordes quickly to avoid dying to said hordes? Or perhaps the matter is one of efficiency? One fight is a novelty. Hundreds is more of a chore.

I just feel the question has more to it than "love it or hate it."

There are many factors going into it, but the common theme I see is that many people enjoy efficiency even when said efficiency hits the point where the gameplay takes a backseat. This is the basis of clicker/automation games where you optimize to the point where you're actively removing as much human input for rewards. Warframe is not one of those games where it is healthy to encourage this level of efficiency. Optimization is certainly a part of Warframe and DE is very aware of that, but there is a problem when it becomes abusive and actively takes away from playing, especially when it has the ability to disrupt the game for others.

August 26th 2022 - DE's clip of the way Zarr is abused:

May 11th, 2018 (over 4 years earlier) - DE's clip of the way slide attacks were abused prior to Update 22.20 that removed the ability for melee to sweep through walls or objects. This gif was taken from this dev workshop (because the links were broken for Rebecca's post, I actually got the images from the translated post by [DE]Zorro):

This is the thing DE is tackling. Their planned changes also represent this perspective. Blowing things up is cool and always been a thing in this game. It's when you're allowed to optimize the gameplay out of playing that hurts the game long-term. Many players seek this level of efficiency, and everyone who does has their own reasons, but it's a major factor.

[(PSN)rexis12]

What's probably not shown is the massive HORDE of enemies that spawn in higher levels that suspiciously don't show up in these 'Test' images.

Like how is there only ONE enemy being hit in those gifs? In Kuva Survival, a level 30 non steel path mission by the by, you start the survival with a hallway filled with those cloned suckers. Like even when I saw the Devstream, I was confused how they were doing the shoot the floor to kill...

One Corrupted Lancer.

We don't do the AoE to ki one guy, we do it to kill the 20 others that fill the room.

 

[(PSN)Silver1593]

100% agree

[Tyreaus]

39 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

when an Enemy's Shields break, the gate only stops the rest of the damage in that single attack, but doesn't stop the next attack, which means it can be bypassed with Multishot.

I believe there are two kinds of enemy shield gating:

The one you described is used by Arbitration drones, behaving much closer to the player's form of shield gating. (Although I don't believe multishot matters; it's multihit, like from cluster munitions in Kuva Zarr and Bramma, that can "one-shot".)

The more common one, used by many Corpus units, doesn't negate damage entirely, but gives a 95% DR for a fraction of a second. So if you have something strong enough, it can break through the shield gate without multi-hit or a headshot.

Also IIRC you don't need to land a direct hit headshot: you can explode Bramma arrows mid-flight above enemies and catch headshots with the explosion. Other weapons could do the same in theory, they just lack the on-demand explosion to make it easier to do.

[bobojoeho]

I am fairly new, so I don't really have good ideas for this situation.  I hope they don't completely kill all AOE weapons, but at the same time it does get dumb when survival missions become: wait for the door to open once every 5 seconds then click with zarr.  To be fair, I hope if they do add self damage then you can't proc yourself with status.  Otherwise there will be so many people proccing themselves with radiation just to kill their teammates.

[Joezone619]

22 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ok, so, there are game design reasons to include or not include self damage. But the traditional arguments aren't relevant this week. Instead we are dealing with a different set of arguments

The point of the upcoming AoE nerf isn't to actually balance explosive weapons. It's to make it harder for Wukong to play the game while AFK.

With that priority in mind, self-damage accomplishes nothing, and only frustrates everyone playing the game fairly

Mirage...

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Joezone619 said:

Mirage...

Elaborate on that please?

[Joezone619]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Elaborate on that please?

Pretty self explanatory, Mirage + AoE = Even bigger boom.

Even bigger boom leads to even more spam, this AoE nerf solves nothing, people are just gonna shift from Wukong easy AoE, to Mirage massive AoE.

[Surbusken]

"Automated", well isn't everything?

Any video game you play, based on memory, is repetition. Enemies do the same, spawn the same etc. You click the same buttons, aim at the same angle, use the same rotation of abillities, time the movement the exact same everytime.

Even games that have 'dynamic' spawns, left4dead, swat 4, FEAR, it is still just repetition, but with more variables.

Un-automated gameplay, is strictly about developers and engineers not being able to create AI, and so all video games are simple, relatively dumb, predictable... and automated.

You would need a true AI, that can improvise and re-write itself, for a video game to be dynamic. Until then, video games are the definition of automation.

Bots are stupid exactly because they are only automated, whereas the brain can adapt and improvise indefinitely. That's video games in a nutshell, per definition.

 

Then ruining a bunch of weapons, people spend time and money on, is going to change all that, and balance the whole game?

 

People just move on to the next thing that dominates all the subpar items, the developers are responsible for creating, in the first place.

Even if every weapon and frame ability and mod, were precisely balanced, someone is always going to be the better player anyway.

What are we doing here, comforting players that didn't get exactly 25.0% of the kills, because they play Inaros?

Isn't it "disruptive" to low MR players, that you have better stats through mods and weapons then?

What if you know the game better than other people, found all the caches, you are disrupting my game!!!!!1

And it isn't disruptive to grind out 5x versions of the zarr, re-level it 5 times with forma bought with plat, only to have it deleted? That is not disruptive?

lol...

It's a co-op game, where the objective is to grind.. a lot. How can anyone possibly be upset people are doing as much damage as possible, as fast as possible, except the developers, of course they'd like to forever increase the grind, because profits right.

But between the players the door swings both ways, sometimes you get carried and sometimes you have to put up with people, it's a give and take.

If people are that vulnerable, they have the option of making their own groups or playing solo.

Isn't that what the developer apologist always tell us, just play something else if you don't like it!!!!1

 

It all falls back on the developers, to create meaningful gameplay, that supports all weapons classes, frame classes, damage types, stances... amps, you name it.

What gameplay reason is there, to equip a pistol with 6 rounds in the clip? That's a developer created problem, or unresolved design concept, that should have been thought of, before adding pistols to the game.

Why are there pistols in the game?

Everything is - just damage - by lack of a deeper design, that isn't the zarr's fault, or the fault of the wuclone, or the fault of the players, trying to reduce the grind.

It's the developers' fault.

They need to face up to that reality, before the game can move forward. Deleting AOE, isn't magically going to add validation and depth to the game, where there isn't any.

 

You can lid your car on fire, but it doesn't mean you will be any happier taking the bus to work, does it?

Can't add by subtracting, that's Lego School math.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

3 hours ago, JinzouningenX said:

I decided it wasnt worth even trying to level the WF to unlock its number 4 meteor drop from the sky or whatever.

 

It'd be funny if you actually unlocked that ability and found it more fun and enjoyable than Ember in the past, and it reignited your passion and interest in Warframe. Not saying that its a realistic possibility, just a funny one to consider. 

Either way, I sympathise that an ability you liked was removed, that still sucks. 

 

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, JinzouningenX said:

Guess i should've done some research before coming back.  So my favorite WF got "reworked". Actually came back just to only play world of fire Ember. Anyway, i read some thing about afk afk with it. as long as i played i never knew going afk with and ember was a thing. it was just pure fun running world on fire. Okay thats over and the way game development is (not just this game) its not coming back.

Someone somewhere loves the Ember rework. Hats off to ya. This game to me has always been so unique because of the powers. I'm posting only after playing as a new Ember for like 6 hours so far. I've tried to find the fun. I've been shooting a gun. You know like a crappy call of duty game or something.  I shoot a fire ball. okay that was ok i guess. I did the flame ring that radiates out. that like lowers armor? I decided it wasnt worth even trying to level the WF to unlock its number 4 meteor drop from the sky or whatever.

Anyway, lesson learned. Look before you leap, and i guess expect a game to radically change how one of its components works.  I'll check in in another 3 years. Jeez. What the heck.

Uhhh ... This is a discussion on weapon changes , but ok , you are highlighting how changes will affect someone or the other no matter how benign it may seem and there will be some collateral damage.

I personally see the changes as very targetted unlike the ember rework which was very broad.

As to your current issue , May i recommend using hildryn ? She has an ability like embers old WoF , you might even enjoy it more.

Also ... Judging a frame without even levelling it fully ? That's really not recommended.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Back in 2020 or so, they changed the visual of the Catchmoon projectile. Gave it some tails and made it spin. Pretty sure it got a bit smaller in the process, at the very least visually so.
Viewing 2019-era video it definitely looks bigger, which matches my recollection.

Went through the patch notes , no actual changes to the size was observed. They did change how it interacts with surfaces at one time. 

 

 

 

[Joezone619]

I don't think these AoE changes are even gonna affect AoE at all. Ammo mutation fixes everything they're about to do, as does cautious shot, and even if you don't have room for both, yes you do, because carrier+ammo case exists. Worst case scenario, ammo pizza's exist, and there is a blueprint to make 100 large ones at a time.

What WILL work then?.... ADDING SELF DAMAGE BACK.

Why will it work? Because you won't be able to just go crazy shooting massive explosions everywhere without harming and/or killing yourself. The risk of harming yourself, makes you think and strategize about how to, and when to best use AoE weapons.

No amount of low ammo capacity, no headshots, or self staggering will fix AoE weapon usage, players already have contingencies for all of those problems, and almost all of those contingencies are easy to acquire without spending a single plat.

The moment these changes go live, people will likely swap from using wukong clones, to using mirage clones, rendering the firestorm changes utterly redundant, and making AoE an even bigger problem then it is now.

[Tyreaus]

4 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

"Automated", well isn't everything?

No, it isn't. Repetition =/= automation.

10 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

It all falls back on the developers, to create meaningful gameplay, that supports all weapons classes, frame classes, damage types, stances... amps, you name it.

Alright, to start with, let's:

1. Move all resource drops to end of mission rewards (as added rolls on a new loot table)
2. Grant affinity on enemy spawn / respawn, not kill
3. Have Defense missions operate off timers (no kill requirement)
4. Make only designated "Life support" enemies drop life support capsules in Survival
5. Retool Exterminate to have select priority targets (rather than mass extermination)
6. Have designated enemies / drones take over Interception nodes (ala Ambulas boss node)

That'll at least start to get weapon classes closer to par by removing the mass murder side of things, which tends to promote AoE above other choices. I might be missing something but, you know, general idea.

How's that sound?

18 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Isn't that what the developer apologist always tell us, just play something else if you don't like it!!!!1

It's a bit of a different story when applying that attitude to new players. You kind of want to be as welcoming as possible to them. The value of your investments, on the other hand, doesn't really relate to new players.

17 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Why are there pistols in the game?

Because pistols came first.

[ReddyDisco]

I wonder how much of an uproar from the aoe crowd would be if the devs add line of sight checks, nerf PSF and introduce self damage to some degree. People have become so dependent upon aoe guns that they don't know how to play without them. Imma make an popcorn for that day