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AFKframe is an alternative playstyle that should be considered for balance, not removal


NezuHimeSama

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I don't think the OP genuinely is promoting AFK playstyles ,

I think he is confusing minimal effort (which is already possible) with AFK ,

Cause if he is actually supporting a means to automate gameplay i think he will be on the list of people to ban pretty fast.

DE already actively discourages players by denying regards if you have had no inputs for more than 2 minutes. Pretty sure being able to bot your way to rewards is never going to be on the approved agenda.

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On 2022-08-31 at 7:23 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Every time there's a nerf to AFK style players, there's always a batch of players who are against it.

Are they really wrong for that?

aaf.png

 

Now, in a non-facetious tone:

On 2022-08-31 at 7:25 PM, Drasiel said:

AFK, away from keyboard means the game is playing itself that's not a play style it's a setup that allows for the absence of a player while they reap the same or greater reward than someone engaging with the content. Let it burn in a tire fire.

Indeed. The priority always is to incentivize engagement by rewarding skill and active play. That is flat-out incompatible with the concept of allowing for AFK to yield similar rewards or results.

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Le 01/09/2022 à 01:23, NezuHimeSama a dit :

Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self? Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action.

I think the problem is your definition of AFK, as many others have already noticed.

To give you an exemple, sometimes I use a full range Sound Quanke Banshee for some Intercceptions, Mobile defenses. Also, I use sometimes a full range Nyx to some Defenses, Mobile Defenses. Also, sometimes I use a full efficiency Inaros for Mobile Defense or Defense... All these exemples can also be used by people that are AFK.

When I play like this, I'm not AFK, I'm in front of my screen, ready to stop my channeling ability to take my weapons and kill an Eximus or a Nullifier. It's not AFK, but the game considers this kind of gameplay as AFK (your summonded Crew member will stop moving) and you can also lose your rewards at the end of the mission (it happened only once to me). To be honest, I think it's normal, as the game cannot make the difference between a present player using a certain strategy and an AFK player abusing from some mechanics.

The better, in my opinion, would be to rework some channeling abilities, so no AFK would be possible. As an exemple, (it's just an idea) if we were able to go on operator mode while channemeing Banshee's Sound Quake or Nyx' Absorb (it's already possible with Assimilation) it would give the present players the possibility to keep movement while the warframe is channeling an ability.

Sorry if I haven't talked about Wukong : it's my less played warframe, but what I've said above also applies to the Wukong Twin. I gave the exemple of channeling abilities, because they are the ones I use more often.

The most interesting part on your comment, in my opinion, is that you've noticed that there are two different kind of players using the same mechanics, but one group is perfectly legit and the other is AFK, but both are getting "punished" without distinction.

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vor 41 Minuten schrieb (NSW)AegisFifi:

I think the problem is your definition of AFK, as many others have already noticed.

To give you an exemple, sometimes I use a full range Sound Quanke Banshee for some Intercceptions, Mobile defenses. Also, I use sometimes a full range Nyx to some Defenses, Mobile Defenses. Also, sometimes I use a full efficiency Inaros for Mobile Defense or Defense... All these exemples can also be used by people that are AFK.

When I play like this, I'm not AFK, I'm in front of my screen, ready to stop my channeling ability to take my weapons and kill an Eximus or a Nullifier. It's not AFK, but the game considers this kind of gameplay as AFK (your summonded Crew member will stop moving) and you can also lose your rewards at the end of the mission (it happened only once to me). To be honest, I think it's normal, as the game cannot make the difference between a present player using a certain strategy and an AFK player abusing from some mechanics.

The better, in my opinion, would be to rework some channeling abilities, so no AFK would be possible. As an exemple, (it's just an idea) if we were able to go on operator mode while channemeing Banshee's Sound Quake or Nyx' Absorb (it's already possible with Assimilation) it would give the present players the possibility to keep movement while the warframe is channeling an ability.

Sorry if I haven't talked about Wukong : it's my less played warframe, but what I've said above also applies to the Wukong Twin. I gave the exemple of channeling abilities, because they are the ones I use more often.

The most interesting part on your comment, in my opinion, is that you've noticed that there are two different kind of players using the same mechanics, but one group is perfectly legit and the other is AFK, but both are getting "punished" without distinction.

but it's very simple. afk is afk...
and that means:
away from keyboard

afk-fotc.gif

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il y a 36 minutes, Venus-Venera a dit :

but it's very simple. afk is afk...
and that means:
away from keyboard

 

Yes, I know, but I don't think the OP is talking about this kind of AFK. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think he is talking about some perfectly legit game styles that use some abilities (mostly channeling abilities, but not only) that are considered by the game as AFK, but in fact are not necessarily AFK : the exemples I gave with Banshee and Nyx are very clear.

Just a specific exemple : When I help some of my clan mates, I let them do the core of the mission and I only give them somme support. Many times, on some base level Steel Path missions, I use a high range and duration Banshee, to create a big area of CC with Sound Quake and, at the same time, I prevent Eximus abilities with Silence (has the same range as Sound Quake). This is to give them some "fresh air" when fighting the Eximus. I'm not AFK at all, but it can last a couple of seconds, sometimes one minute or a bit more (it depends on the time they need to kill the Eximus). I'm not AFK, but the game considers me as being AFK.

I think the OP is using a wide definition of AFK, meaning " in fact away from keybord" and "being considered as away from keybord (while you're not)" - but I'm perhaps wrong.

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On 2022-09-01 at 1:23 AM, NezuHimeSama said:

Do we have to hate on people who have a different idea of fun?

Yes.... Tenno are extremely Petty and Only Care about themselves so They won't miss am Opportunity to make Everyone else just as Miserable as they are ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 

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В 01.09.2022 в 02:23, NezuHimeSama сказал:

Is AFK not just another playstyle, focusing on optimizing a build to deploy it's self?

No.

 

В 01.09.2022 в 02:23, NezuHimeSama сказал:

Do you really need to tell the player how they should have fun with a videogame?

Yes.

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the question asked is not really correct since afk means someone isn't even actively sitting at their rig and at least watching what is happening on the display - those player are annoying somewhat insofar as they often die and waste other players time if those are running to revive them. but beside that, they are punished already by the game by getting flagged as 'inactive' and not getting some rewards (e.g. round and relic ones). ofc, that system can be tricked by simple scripts for some cases but still afk player mostly harm themself and tbh, if i play a pug-mission i go into it by knowing i can do it alone and don't need anyones help with it. my way of dealing with afk's is simply by ignoring them if they go down a 2nd time at the same spot and thus letting then die - end of that story...

the 'other' kind of players (and i guess that are what the OP meant) are those frame/builds that only appear as afk but still do their job, and more often than not better than the rest of the team in puncto kills/time... those frames still get the 'inactive' punishment from DE which i find a bit unfair since they don't cheat or abuse anything and simply get the kick in the butt for playing a legit build for something DE never though of themself (which is quite often the case with DE). forcing the player to run around and pressing buttons just so they appear as active is nice as cattle-prodding people waiting for the bus with the argument that they can already move by foot to the next stop.

imo, there are many more pressing 'changes' DE should do to the game first before even thinking of forcing any kind of playstyle on any players. and before any wisearse mention it: yes, there ARE some exceptions where DE need to intervent as they often had do in all the years of this game - but that's the proverbial exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

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1 minute ago, fr4gb4ll said:

the question asked is not really correct since afk means someone isn't even actively sitting at their rig and at least watching what is happening on the display - those player are annoying somewhat insofar as they often die and waste other players time if those are running to revive them. but beside that, they are punished already by the game by getting flagged as 'inactive' and not getting some rewards (e.g. round and relic ones). ofc, that system can be tricked by simple scripts for some cases but still afk player mostly harm themself and tbh, if i play a pug-mission i go into it by knowing i can do it alone and don't need anyones help with it. my way of dealing with afk's is simply by ignoring them if they go down a 2nd time at the same spot and thus letting then die - end of that story...

the 'other' kind of players (and i guess that are what the OP meant) are those frame/builds that only appear as afk but still do their job, and more often than not better than the rest of the team in puncto kills/time... those frames still get the 'inactive' punishment from DE which i find a bit unfair since they don't cheat or abuse anything and simply get the kick in the butt for playing a legit build for something DE never though of themself (which is quite often the case with DE). forcing the player to run around and pressing buttons just so they appear as active is nice as cattle-prodding people waiting for the bus with the argument that they can already move by foot to the next stop.

imo, there are many more pressing 'changes' DE should do to the game first before even thinking of forcing any kind of playstyle on any players. and before any wisearse mention it: yes, there ARE some exceptions where DE need to intervent as they often had do in all the years of this game - but that's the proverbial exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

DE doesn't like inactive playstyles or playstyles that take little interaction with the world becoming the meta.

Sorry if this bothers you, but that's the way it's always been - which you should know by this point, since you've had an account since 2015.

And honestly, these are barely nerfs for anyone that wasn't actually stepping away from their computer with Wuclone anyway. 

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On 2022-09-01 at 9:56 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Wow, people in warframe are super hostile towards people who favor non-action gameplay styles. Very sad to see such toxicity in the WF community.

I feel like this is a case of trying to be too inclusive and accepting of everything. While we can definitely see that there are a lot of people who want to automate parts (or the entirety) of gameplay, we really need to figure out if those people should get what they want: Does a lack of action in gameplay play to Warframe's strengths? Does DE benefit from less engaging playstyles? What does it say about player agency that little to no effort is required to complete missions and get rewards? All of these are questions you might want to consider about the particular playstyles you are trying to include.

I think @(PSN)slightconfuzzled made a good point about why we shouldn't be inclusive concerning everybody's way of having fun:

On 2022-08-31 at 8:17 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

So some changes to AFK play styles, may mean some players just quit and leave the game, but... with the sort of data they can access, knowing that players tend to leave generally, to relative degrees, wanting to avoid AFK play styles is probably seen as a net positive. 

To put it another way, I have a friend who likes to play games, and he loves "free speech" and having a laugh. What's wrong with a little bit of offensive and crude banter in the Chat eh? Why shouldn't he be allowed to get drunk and talk about his love making techniques with different ethnicities with blunt language? Well... that might be his "play style", but DE doesn't want that in the General Chat for its players to be exposed to. Their are rules and guidelines prohibiting such behaviour. Personally I don't care about random people talking about random inappropriate things, but I am not going to try and argue with DE over letting people use whatever language they want in chat. 

Also I like to hack for fun. Why should that bother people? Why is DE trying to ban me for having fun? Well... no, they are not trying to stop fun, they are trying to stop hacking. Bad argument to try and equivocate the two. 

And while you might see that and think that inactive playstyles don't bother others in the same way that toxic chatters and hackers do, consider the response this topic is getting: It seems like players aren't very happy with even the idea of coexisting with people they see as useless leeches.

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10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I don't think the OP genuinely is promoting AFK playstyles ,

I think he is confusing minimal effort (which is already possible) with AFK ,

I assumed it was just a troll thread.  Especially since they never clarified it. 

These days it's hard to tell for sure though.

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3 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

DE doesn't like inactive playstyles or playstyles that take little interaction with the world becoming the meta.

Sorry if this bothers you, but that's the way it's always been - which you should know by this point, since you've had an account since 2015.

And honestly, these are barely nerfs for anyone that wasn't actually stepping away from their computer with Wuclone anyway. 

it doesn't bother me per se. what does is that DE never seems to learn to think BEFORE releasing something how it will affect the users playstyle. really, after all those years they should know what to expect - to me it only looks like at lack of testing one owns product and THIS is what bothers me...

no matter what DE changes, meta-nerfs, weapon and/or game mechanic 'changes' they won't get the problem solved that people will always find a new 'easy' way to play the game, especially since the grind wished by DE is somewhat forcing the players to do this (or they just stop playing the game).

oh, and 'knowing' this doesn't mean i won't criticize it - if no one does, DE would simply claim people are contend with what they get.

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I'm of the opinion that AFK play isn't necessarily bad, but if you want AFK play there's an entire genre named for it, idle games.

Warframe is not an idle game, and your AFK play in Warframe is the extractors you get to harvest resources with. You shouldn't be idling inside an actual mission.

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Le 02/09/2022 à 13:00, BR31 a dit :

But her link transfer damage was indeed too powerful and mostly fixed.

Yes, it was too strong : they gave the official reason for the Link nerf by saying that a support frame is not supposed to make more damage than a DPS frame.

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Le 05/09/2022 à 09:24, 0_The_F00l a dit :

I don't think the OP genuinely is promoting AFK playstyles ,

I think he is confusing minimal effort (which is already possible) with AFK ,

Il y a 17 heures, fr4gb4ll a dit :

the 'other' kind of players (and i guess that are what the OP meant) are those frame/builds that only appear as afk but still do their job, and more often than not better than the rest of the team in puncto kills/time... those frames still get the 'inactive' punishment from DE which i find a bit unfair since they don't cheat or abuse anything and simply get the kick in the butt for playing a legit build for something DE never though of themself (which is quite often the case with DE). forcing the player to run around and pressing buttons just so they appear as active is nice as cattle-prodding people waiting for the bus with the argument that they can already move by foot to the next stop.

I also agree with both of you.

The OP is not really talking about AFK player strictly speaking, but he's talking about some other kind of play styles that can be considered by AFK by the game, while they are not (the channeling abilities I gave as an exemple before are in this situation.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb (NSW)AegisFifi:

I also agree with both of you.

The OP is not really talking about AFK player strictly speaking, but he's talking about some other kind of play styles that can be considered by AFK by the game, while they are not (the channeling abilities I gave as an exemple before are in this situation.

afk is understandable and simply defined... because I have far too often the impression that paramedics write for certain authors in the forum...
and when someone talks about cats, you can't fantasize and claim that it's about dogs.........

1738.gif

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Il y a 4 heures, Venus-Venera a dit :

afk is understandable and simply defined... because I have far too often the impression that paramedics write for certain authors in the forum...
and when someone talks about cats, you can't fantasize and claim that it's about dogs.........

 

 

I totally agree and your post is a perfect exemple of what you said.

In our world, we have figures of speech, wide definitions, strict definitions... Confusing both of these is a great problem. Not everything is unequivocal : some expressions are analogical and others equivocal. Many people in this discussion have understood that the OP is using the AFK expression in a meaning that is not the strictly AFK, but something else. And you're keeping repeating the strict meaning of AFK... That's exectly what we said the OP is NOT talking about. You are the one that is talking about dogs in a discussion about cats.

The whole discussion about AoE, just to give an exemple, are in fact a discussion about multi-target weapons (not all multi-target is an AoE), but people usually uses AoE in the wide meaning of multi-target.

What we three noticed is that the OP is not necessarily talking about strict AFK, but he uses AFK in a wide meaning.

He says : "There's lots of people who like strategy and build optimization over fast paced action. " And this is very clear : he is not talking about AFK, but about some gameplay where the player is not all the time jumping and running around.

He is talking about a funny and calm gameplay : and this is not AFK. The OP used wide definition of AFK or, if you want, he used the expression AFK in a improper way, or in a wrong way.

Understood ? or, better :  😺meow, meow ? or perhaps : 🐶 woof, woof !

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I mean minion builds are actually fun which generally end up promoting more 'AFK-like' behavior. It is indeed a playstyle and they're not actually AFK. There's a reason for example; Guild Wars 2 not only never nerfed/deleted minion Necromancer builds but added a new "summoner" class that lets their crazy strong robot beat everything to death. XD It just comes with the Pet Job territory a lot of the time.

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb m_a_r_c_h_:

Barring cheats/hacks, players should be able to do whatever they want in solo play. In a coop mission, AFK is just rude.

this cannot work at all, because accounts are usually created many years ago. a ban would ruin all progress.
and devs have actually optimized everything in such a way that too much daily gameplay is hardly rewarded...

Besides, nobody could prove to me that afk is worthwhile in warframe and that it's actually being cheated somewhere...

conanobrien-cheater.gif

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