DE should just go ahead and put out rules for how the game has to be played.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just put out rules and set builds and loadouts and tell us how you expect us to play so that we can finally figure out what fun is.  Obviously we can't do that on our own because they're doing everything they can to herd us into and away from things.  

 

Loki with all movement and defensive mods, with the wall latch set so I can hide up in the rafters away from the scary level 15 enemies that I'm not supposed to kill too fast?  Latron, right?  Can I at least use the prime?  Don't worry, I still have my damaged serration mod.  And impact damage, I can out that on so that I'm not using the bad ol viral slash meta,  right?

People will say troll post, but for the mods:  I'm trying to make a point.  People are having fun but all DE can do is tell us we're not having fun the right way.  It's their game, not ours, and we need to play it how they want.  They won't address that the reason these metas exist is because most of the alternatives are utterly useless in comparison.  No one but a new player or a bored meme artist is modding for puncture over slash.  But they won't adjust anything to make alternatives better.  Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind but they won't adjust the grind or the weapons.  They'll only nerf the methods people use to go faster.

 

They'll listen to players crying they can't keep up in a meso fissure or universal medallions in conclave, but they won't look at mountains of negative feedback or bad reviews.  It's not obvious there's a specific way we're supposed to play.  Just go ahead and spell it out already. 

[Leqesai]

[ReddyDisco]

What has been evident with player feedback is that DE shouldn't listen to it and do what they feel is right

[ant99999]

I like how each and every one of those AoE complainers think their take to be so unique. But it ends up being all the same tired points which were commented upon a thousand times.

I am sure there's a real discussion to be had on this topic. But it's always about how the OP's only reliable option was AoE and now they are sad because it's a tiny bit less reliable.

Kind of disappointing tbh.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 minute ago, ReddyDisco said:

What has been evident with player feedback is that DE shouldn't listen to it and do what they feel is right

And how exactly is that evident?  There's no counterpoint there.  You aren't adressing anything, and not a single one of you has.  Your only arguments have been "dev's game, they can do what they want."  

 

2 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

I like how each and every one of those AoE complainers think their take to be so unique. But it ends up being all the same tired points which were commented upon a thousand times.

I am sure there's a real discussion to be had on this topic. But it's always about how the OP's only reliable option was AoE and now they are sad because it's a tiny bit less reliable.

Kind of disappointing tbh.

It's almost like people are talking about AOE because that's what DE is nerfing right now.  Where's your talking point, outside of staning the devs?  How is nerfing meta while not addressing the glaring flaws in most of the non-meta gear not DE telling everyone how they need to play?  It will shift to the next crowd clear meta after this because they won't address any of the root issues, and all you can do is go "complaint bad."

[Reitrix]

4 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

I like how each and every one of those AoE complainers think their take to be so unique. But it ends up being all the same tired points which were commented upon a thousand times.

I am sure there's a real discussion to be had on this topic. But it's always about how the OP's only reliable option was AoE and now they are sad because it's a tiny bit less reliable.

Kind of disappointing tbh.

What keeps me laughing at all these AoE complaints is that damage per shot wasn't changed.

They're basically just mad they need to think a little about whether not a single Lancer is worth that Bramma shot. 

[Traumtulpe]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And how exactly is that evident?  There's no counterpoint there.  You aren't adressing anything, and not a single one of you has.  Your only arguments have been "dev's game, they can do what they want."

Don't bother. There is a curious kind of creature inhabiting this forum, some call it troll or white knight (I prefer vulture). You see them flocking to any form of discontent, deriving pleasure from stoking it. For example when people were locked into the new war and asked for help, DE merged all of those cries for help into one single threat to be ingored, and about 10 people just kept making fun of each and every one of them for 20+ pages.

[ant99999]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It's almost like people are talking about AOE because that's what DE is nerfing right now.  Where's your talking point, outside of staning the devs?  How is nerfing meta while not addressing the glaring flaws in most of the non-meta gear not DE telling everyone how they need to play?  It will shift to the next crowd clear meta after this because they won't address any of the root issues, and all you can do is go "complaint bad."

My talking point is that you repeat the same damn complaint thinly veiling it as an arguement.

What should I reply to you if your whole point boils down to "single target bad because I don't know how to use it, and also DE are evil"? There's no discussion to be had, you're just venting and pretending to make a point.

 

For the love of god, update your builds, learn to prioritize groups over single targets, and actually try modding a single non-AoE weapon - then you at least will be able to present an actual arguement, you know, with examples, suggestions, comparisons, all this stuff.

[fo3nixz]

meta will always exist, its like a hydra

[PrimalordialBob]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And how exactly is that evident?  There's no counterpoint there.  You aren't adressing anything, and not a single one of you has.  Your only arguments have been "dev's game, they can do what they want."  

 

It's almost like people are talking about AOE because that's what DE is nerfing right now.  Where's your talking point, outside of staning the devs?  How is nerfing meta while not addressing the glaring flaws in most of the non-meta gear not DE telling everyone how they need to play?  It will shift to the next crowd clear meta after this because they won't address any of the root issues, and all you can do is go "complaint bad."

Problem is there is just no middle ground to be had most of the time. Most of the people supporting these could care less if AOE burned, so there is no reasoning with them about why these nerfs are bad. They see AOE burning and thus they are happy.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

22 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

What keeps me laughing at all these AoE complaints is that damage per shot wasn't changed.

They're basically just mad they need to think a little about whether not a single Lancer is worth that Bramma shot. 

I do not think I have seen a better worded summary for the issue at hand. 

This is basically the issue. Heaven forbid, DE wants people to actually play the game and have a Sliver of skill and critical thinking while doing so.

[RazeLandale]

I heard you won't be able to use Wukong, Vauban, Octavia or the original poster anymore because they have too much passive aggression.

[Hayrack]

 

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

Heaven forbid, DE wants people to actually play the game and have a Sliver of skill and critical thinking while doing so.

Best joke today so far.

The only skill you need is trading, so you can buy primes, railjack and mechs for plat. If you pay money, you don't even need any skill.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean, the framing here is that DE doesn't listen/address the mountain of negative feedback or bad reviews. Except, for myself, I feel that overlooks a really important element of player and fans interaction and messaging to DE and developers in general, in that, players/fans aren't a hive mind. There are lots of issues we are split on, even if some people like to imply or suggest otherwise, also, there are some issues, we may actually be a majority on, but may still have complications involved (like technical, which many of us may understand). 

I personally get tired of drama easily. Posting on forums is something done in spare time. I consider myself pretty neutral. I encourage criticism, critiquing, because I view that as a net positive system. I also personally like to value, thoughtfulness and consideration over venting/over emotional style positivity or negativity, which can be highly subjective, and warp individuals perceptions. Like there are certain human behaviours that you have to consider. Especially around conformity. One hypothesis/theory in general, for example, is often after big updates to games, places where communities of players to that service, can gather, will take on a relatively negative stance/mood. Relative to what the overall group experience is, because those enjoying it or neutral, will be less vocal, and partaking in activity. Those more negative, or with negativity, will want to complain/criticise, and make their disappointment known, to the Dev, to other players and consolidate/seek affirmation, which can feed into itself. I can't emphasis how general this is though, because there are also many many people like myself, that like to document and express my appreciation and joy with the stuff in updates I do like. 

Though in many situations, initially, I find myself seemingly outnumbered by those who have issues, and often? Many of the issues raised, I do agree with. For example, Angels of Zariman had a lot of bad bugs, that really seemed like they sucked. I experienced a few, but eh, overall I was really enjoying the overall update. Lots of negativity in the forums though (at the start), "worst update ever" sentiment, "this is what kills Warframe" sentiment, but like... thats a reoccurring pattern, a lot of people who make such claims don't really address when you point out some people felt that way about their own personal fav update. Then a few weeks later, surveys may be had, people have time, more people who enjoyed the update are visiting forums more, and then more positive and neutral comments about Zariman (as an example), I find, including, with that survey, that those within, the majority found the update in the positive categories, by a significant degree. So weighted towards positive, then neutral, minority of negative. 

Take the recent review bomb situation. I was more aware and knowledgeable on review bombing in other mediums, and for more directly political reasons. I did brush up some on game review bombing methods, tactics, results, etc I remember one sincere user, upset, because they seemed really worried for DE, but they were also taking review bombing at face value, unaware of the more complicated and nuance aspects. Including how review bombing can sometime be counter productive (have the opposite intended affect of one unhappy with the product/those critical or unhappy etc). I saw many users, who believe "DE needs to take action", but when you discuss the complicated and nuanced aspects, they aren't interested. Often, its more like they needed a message or signal of some sort to validate their personal beliefs, and will continue to double down on the narrative they are invested in. To be clear, this applies in both the positive and negative aspects. 

So then, for many, sharing your more middling, relatively neutral takes and opinions, in a sea of venting or negativity, or positivity... eh. Also, its not like I am against self expression, the forums should have all those sincere expressions of positivity, negativity, neutrality, venting etc, the tiring bit can be people, because we are often bad at communicating and interacting with each other, in many circumstances for various reasons.

Like I find it a bit funny, some players categorise each of us, into little groups/factions, based on what weapon types, they assume we prefer. "Over here you have the AOE heads Timmy, make sure you don't enter their territory without PSF equipped... those guys over there? Anti-Aoe'ers. Think they are all fancy with their single target weapons, buncha racists really... Over here you got the Beam Bois... these fellas only pursue beam weapons...  Over here you got the "The game is called Warframe" bros. These cats don't even use weapons, they just get by on Warframe powers... Well one day the Race War will start, and all these gangs will fight to the death for DE's sick amusement. Its a sad cruel world out here Timmy."

[taiiat]

but those Rules would have to be updated like, 12 times a Year.

 

53 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

What has been evident with player feedback is that DE shouldn't listen to it and do what they feel is right

what about when the nerfs/changes they make affect other parts of the game unrelated to the things that were being targeted?

[RichardKam]

I don't know, people that play the game with diverse arsenals never complain about "how the game was played". 

I have been using automatic rifle and semi secondary like k. Seer and tanky frames since like 2016. Hell even my regular hek got me through most of my early sortie years, and as of today there was no mysterious power forcing me to change how I play. I wonder why.

The more I see this kind of threads, the more I incline to think that it is an issue specific to AoE-only players. Jesus, even when glaive class was nerfed half way to the ground people were fine with it, at least your k. Zarr is still doing 20k damage per bullet.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

36 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

My talking point is that you repeat the same damn complaint thinly veiling it as an arguement.

What should I reply to you if your whole point boils down to "single target bad because I don't know how to use it, and also DE are evil"? There's no discussion to be had, you're just venting and pretending to make a point.

 

For the love of god, update your builds, learn to prioritize groups over single targets, and actually try modding a single non-AoE weapon - then you at least will be able to present an actual arguement, you know, with examples, suggestions, comparisons, all this stuff.

And there's still no argument here.  My builds are fine, I don't even main launchers.  My highest use primary is the basmu, which has a very small AOE.  One of my most used kitgun secondaries is rattleguts.  Y'all want so bad for me to be some bramma wielding cookie cutter wukong main, but I've got plenty of variety in my loadouts.  I'm not complaining because my only weapon was nerfed.  I'm complaining about options being nerfed into the dirt without anything else being addressed.

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind

If you've built them to be slow and to not exploit enemy weaknesses, then sure lol.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

they won't adjust the weapons.

Idk man, I'm currently enjoying that new 3x headshot multiplier. You should genuinely give it a try sometime.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just go ahead and spell it out already. 

They did. They want you to be less reliant on one singular weapon for e v e r y t h i n g, and to utilise your entire arsenal, your Tenno, etc. When they say 'is it dominant?', that's one of the things they were talking about. There's something wrong when a singular weapon is all you need for everything, meanwhile the rest of your arsenal, your Warframe, your Tenno, etc etc goes completely untouched.

[ant99999]

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And there's still no argument here.  My builds are fine, I don't even main launchers.  My highest use primary is the basmu, which has a very small AOE.  One of my most used kitgun secondaries is rattleguts.  Y'all want so bad for me to be some bramma wielding cookie cutter wukong main, but I've got plenty of variety in my loadouts.  I'm not complaining because my only weapon was nerfed.  I'm complaining about options being nerfed into the dirt without anything else being addressed.

Then I genuinely do not understand you. Because if your loadout is diverse like this, you shouldn't have an issue with the AoE nerf. Nearly all single targets received a universal headshot buff, and AoE wasn't really nerfed that hard. You just have to have a backup weapon in your loadout in case you aren't lucky with ammo pickups.

This way of balancing rocket launchers is a standart among games like Borderlands and Destiny.

 

And by the way I don't argue that all single targets are suddenly good, or that the balance is perfect now. Latron may very well be crap, but this balace patch wasn't about buffing the weakest single targets which are still an issue. It nerfed AoE moderately to prevent spamming them.

[PollexMessier]

The thing about how they treat the game that annoys me is that they'll make genuinely problematic changes like last time they reworked statuses and BUFFED viral slash which was already meta, and nerfed everything else that competed against it. Corrosive and gas use to be good. Now I only use corrosive on crit builds against enemies that have it as a weakness. and gas was just killed outright.
Or removing self damage....

And then instead of reverting an obvious mistake and trying something else, They'll leave the problem that they created in for years and try to bend the game around it. Giving players ample time to get use to it, and put a substantial amount of time and resources into it, before they smash it with a sledgehammer and piss everyone off for invalidating their time and hitting huge chunks of the game with the collateral damage.

And all they'd need to do to prevent this from happening is actually play test the damn game.

The game's balance is a huge mess because the devs rarely ever correct their mistakes they just keep slapping layers of duck tape over it.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

You don't have to be a user of a thing that's being nerfed to be against it, or see the problems with how it's being nerfed.

I agree with the Original Poster on this.

[Skoomaseller]

22 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Then I genuinely do not understand you. Because if your loadout is diverse like this, you shouldn't have an issue with the AoE nerf. Nearly all single targets received a universal headshot buff, and AoE wasn't really nerfed that hard. You just have to have a backup weapon in your loadout in case you aren't lucky with ammo pickups.

This way of balancing rocket launchers is a standart among games like Borderlands and Destiny.

 

And by the way I don't argue that all single targets are suddenly good, or that the balance is perfect now. Latron may very well be crap, but this balace patch wasn't about buffing the weakest single targets which are still an issue. It nerfed AoE moderately to prevent spamming them.

dk why you're hyperfixating on "he's complaining about aoe nerf lole" when the problem OP has is DE's handling of the "issue" at hand and not the nerfs themselves.

you don't need to be a wuzarr user to take issue with it. I'm certainly not a wukong player, and I also think DE's not taking this the right way.

agree w/ you btw OP 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

 

It's almost like people are talking about AOE because that's what DE is nerfing right now.  Where's your talking point, outside of staning the devs?  How is nerfing meta while not addressing the glaring flaws in most of the non-meta gear not DE telling everyone how they need to play?  It will shift to the next crowd clear meta after this because they won't address any of the root issues, and all you can do is go "complaint bad."

They're nerfing it because they did a wittle ammo nerf and people said that was too much so now they are looking for alternative solutions. 

If you all would have kept quiet and used the kuva tonkor you would have been fine, but seeing as these ammo changes were apparently too much, you will have to deal with something that is probably going to be way worse and affect ALL of the AoE weapons.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

36 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Then I genuinely do not understand you. Because if your loadout is diverse like this, you shouldn't have an issue with the AoE nerf. Nearly all single targets received a universal headshot buff, and AoE wasn't really nerfed that hard. You just have to have a backup weapon in your loadout in case you aren't lucky with ammo pickups.

This way of balancing rocket launchers is a standart among games like Borderlands and Destiny.

 

And by the way I don't argue that all single targets are suddenly good, or that the balance is perfect now. Latron may very well be crap, but this balace patch wasn't about buffing the weakest single targets which are still an issue. It nerfed AoE moderately to prevent spamming them.

The fact that you can't understand why someone wouldn't like nerfs just because they don't affect large parts of their arsenal tells me everything I need to know.  "I don't have that problem so it doesn't exist."  

 

I despise that mentality.  The AOE nerfs effect me in multiple ways outside of launchers.  Self damage coming back to AOE amps that already shouldn't have self stagger.  Having it come to all AOE like self stagger did.  The Astilla never had self damage, but they stuck stagger on it because screw the handfulnof people that liked it, right?  You think that self damage isn't going to show up on literally everything that has self stagger that never had self damage originally?  My favorite, the Basmu is probably about to take off 75% of my health if something runs in front of me while I'm shooting, or a stray shot hits terrain.   

 

How much of the game has to get nerfed because a bunch of you can't handle that people don't want to play as slow as you?  Like I've stated, I can be disruptive with nearly anything in my arsenal.  You'd have to nerf pretty much everything into the dirt to stop that.  

 

If none of the pro-nerf people are the stragglers I see in every fissure with no kills, and you're all as good and "skilled" as you claim, then why aren't you in front of the cookie cutter build bramma boy, beating him to the punch?  You should be crapping all over pubs numbers if you're all so skill based and above it all.  Not on here gloating about how something you percieved as your issue getting nerfed.

[ant99999]

18 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

dk why you're hyperfixating on "he's complaining about aoe nerf lole" when the problem OP has is DE's handling of the "issue" at hand and not the nerfs themselves.

you don't need to be a wuzarr user to take issue with it. I'm certainly not a wukong player, and I also think DE's not taking this the right way.

Well, I don't know. I suppose if you try, you can extract some bits and pieces of sensible points from the OP's post.

Like yes, a lot of weaker options are still unusable. The damage system is still a mess and the game incentivizes speedrunning the missions above actually playing. This is all I can agree with.

But then all these fragments of a potentially reasonable discussion are mixed together with some conspiracies about DE wanting players to play how they like, stirred in a passive agressive way, and the resulting dish smells heavily of an angry Wukong main.

You have to have a particular attitude to be willing to find any sense in a post structured in every way like its whining about AoE nerf.