Newest Wave Of Incarnons Will Be Purchasable With Platinum

[bl1te]

Plat Geneses are not pay-2-win. It is pay-2-skip. As always have been in Warframe.

21 минуту назад, Corvid сказал:

I'm fairly certain that mastery locks apply to plat purchases as well. It's PA and nemesis weapons that bypass them.

Nah, https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Mastery_Rank#Bypassing_Mastery_Locks

[Pakaku]

It's misleading to call it P2W, because Warframe is a collectathon with no other win condition other than the personal satisfaction of collecting all of the things. So by paying to skip, you "win" the goal of the game, even though it doesn't amount to as much as it could in a more competitive game.

There are also so many other alternatives to "end-game" equipment, and almost nothing to use it on unless you intentionally level-cap, that I really personally couldn't care if someone gets access to some new toys quicker than normal, that will perform about as well as stuff I've already had for potentially months or years

[AegidiusF]

It seems ok to me (unless some other elements come into knowledge and changes my mind).

Those who want to farm will still be able to farm.

Those who don't want to wait will be able to buy.

Just the same way it happens with weapons, Forma, Warframes and many other stuff.

And it's not even sure they will do that. But if they do, I'm pretty ok with and I would even ask to make all Incarnons purchasable for those who wants. A F2P needs to get some founds from somewhere. It really seems legit to me.

 

Citation

These will be added to the Circuit reward rotation, but for those who want instant access to them, we are discussing making these 5 Incarnon Geneses also purchasable from Cavalero for Platinum. Our goal is to simply offer this as an alternative option to players should they wish to skip the wait -- not to make the grind so prohibitive that purchasing is the only option. Only these 5 Incarnons would be available from Cavalero directly, should we take this direction for the Echoes of Duviri update. To be determined!

 

[Pakaku]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Our goal is to simply offer this as an alternative option to players should they wish to skip the wait -- not to make the grind so prohibitive that purchasing is the only option.

This is what I really don't like, intentionally padding out the time you're forced to wait, classic FOMO move. The grind is nothing special with the decree system, the major hurdle is the wait times, especially now that five extra weapons will be added to pad the cycle out another week. And the alternative is to pay. Figures...

[Genitive]

It doesn't make it any better. Literally nothing stops DE from changing the system so we can pick 2 adapters per week from all the available weapons. The weekly rotation is unnecessary.

Archon shards are enough for rotating weekly content, I don't think we need any more of this nonsense.

[SneakyErvin]

What is the difference between selling a few incarnons compared to selling frames, weapons and other stuff? 

My personal take on the incarnons here is that anyone who will spend money on them has no sense in their head to begin with, since these arent even RNG items, they are guaranteed simple short grinds, taking just a few hours per week to unlock.

[Zakkhar]

17 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

So by paying to skip, you "win" the goal of the game, even though it doesn't amount to as much as it could in a more competitive game.

It is a not a collection game at all, it is a grind shooter. Grinding is the whole gameplay. You get some gear to get more gear to bet better gear and be more efficient at farming some other gear.

You do not win it at all. You pay for losing it. Imagine if you could just start Elden Ring and imidiately finish the game with a press of a button. Seems fun and satisfactory accompllishent. Same as there is no satisfaction of having something, if you only had to literally press a button. People get bored with the game very quickly if they play it with their wallet, because there is no dopamine mechanism here.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Ah, had a feeling the classic "that one person" will defend DE to the end topic will start.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

I'd rather wish the game was pay to win than be forced to wait several weeks of rotations to get equipment I would actually like to have fun with.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 9 minutes, Pakaku a dit :

This is what I really don't like, intentionally padding out the time you're forced to wait, classic FOMO move. The grind is nothing special with the decree system, the major hurdle is the wait times, especially now that five extra weapons will be added to pad the cycle out another week. And the alternative is to pay. Figures...

I can be wrong, but it has always been like this in Warframe : Harrow farm, Nidus farm, Akarius farm and many others have always let the player had the possibility to skip the farm and get the stuff with Plat.

And we always could pay to skip the crafting time.

We always could skip the waiting time of a next rotation Prime Vault (now Resurgence) by spending plat on the Market.

These Incarnons are not even necessary to do anything in the game.

I'm really ok with it.

il y a 4 minutes, Zakkhar a dit :

It is a not a collection game at all, it is a grind shooter. Grinding is the whole gameplay. You get some gear to get more gear to bet better gear and be more efficient at farming some other gear.

You do not win it at all. You pay for losing it. Imagine if you could just start Elden Ring and imidiately finish the game with a press of a button. Seems fun and satisfactory accompllishent. Same as there is no satisfaction of having something, if you only had to literally press a button. People get bored with the game very quickly if they play it with their wallet, because there is no dopamine mechanism here.

Excellent remarks ! I totally agree.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

I've only seen 3 people claiming that it's p2w on the forum, most people know it's not p2w, what most are upset about is the acquisition of incarnons.

Removing the rotation would be good enough, let people pick the weapon and keep the 2 per week limit, if we keep getting new incarnons it's gonna get to the point of someone having to wait 10 weeks for their Incarnon Stug, that's too much.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It is a not a collection game at all, it is a grind shooter. Grinding is the whole gameplay. You get some gear to get more gear to bet better gear and be more efficient at farming some other gear.

You do not win it at all. You pay for losing it. Imagine if you could just start Elden Ring and imidiately finish the game with a press of a button. Seems fun and satisfactory accompllishent. Same as there is no satisfaction of having something, if you only had to literally press a button. People get bored with the game very quickly if they play it with their wallet, because there is no dopamine mechanism here.

Yep that is my view. Pay-to-rob-yourself-of-gameplay more or less. And it isnt like genesis adapters in the cash shop is different from any other weapon or frame in the cash shop, things that have been part of the game since release. I said this in the other thread about this. Anyone that pays for these adapters have no sense in their head since these items arent RNG based, they are guaranteed to get very easily and without spending much time per item. Plus there is likely something else you want from the circuit ranks anyways that you cannot buy, like rivens, free exilus adapters, arcanes or something else. So all the people do that pay is remove two reward tiers that wont get replaced with something else.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

pretty sure its not P2W, just Pay-to skip, which is how Warframe has always been. Steel path Circuit will be just as easy without these new adapters as it would be if you had one, it's not going to make that much of a difference.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

These weapons are leagues ahead of anything else short of tenet or kuva weapons which are locked behind a helluva grind,

you cited Liches/Sisters as an example, but even they have parts you can skip: namely via Lich trading. instead of farming endlessly until you get a Larvling with the weapon you want (and still having to pray to RNGsus it has a good roll and/or an Ephemera), you can directly buy a Lich from someone who captured it and immediately start the murmur farming.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

WIth incarnons being plat items a new player only has to craft lets say a latron bp from the market and then buy an incarnon adapter and bam they have one of the best primaries in the game as soon as they start duviri and finish duviri.

this doesn't hold water either. MR requirements are bypassed if you purchase a weapon with plat, so this is no different than a new player buying a an Arca Plasmor for example. 

6 hours ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

This feels very not warframe, warframe has always been about fair grind.

give me a second to stifle my laughter there... pfft... nope I can't do it AHAHAHAA!

ok, timegates are not ideal, but think about this; were it not for that mess-up with the Incarnon rotations, we would've had to wait another 6 weeks for the Dread/Despair/Hate/Sibear/Zylok rotation, but instead we got to have another crack at it. not a single soul at that time complained about having to wait the six weeks for that rotation to come back, because that's what was expected to happen. I'm not sure why you'd expect the new Incarnons, being added to the rotation, to not be timegated. 

6 hours ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

What happens in a year or two when suddenly the new frame or prime is locked behind an arbitrary time limit all while being offered for plat day 1.

bit of a stretch considering this has never happened once in 10 years and Prime Access is one of the primary revenue streams. DE won't timegate primes like this. not because of us, but because if they did, they'd be screwing up their own revenue, so they won't do that.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

*Duviri and particularly the circuit is not in a good place right now, as someone who has done so many runs in duviri and more then half of them end in the quest breaking, the host disconnecting or a mix of both which leads to hours of grind/progress being erased,

my experience has been different: public games are always a crapshoot but for the most part the worst I get are people that leave after one round. had very few host/connection issues, to me Duviri is more stable now than it's ever been. 

overall, this really isn't the crime you're making it out to be: DE have allowed players to pay up in order to avoid farming long hours (or in this case, waiting for several weeks) for years, and if anything, it also follows the trend of them adding shops for new content (Voruna, Citrine and Kullervo). 

[--END--Rikutatis]

9 hours ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

funny I remember before "She" took over way back when Steve was sitting at his desk showing the release of the Plains of Eidolon .. everyone was excited and it was so cool to see the look on his face when the Grineer started attacking the Eidolon .. It was so cool the game had purpose and direction, now "She" has made this into a useless money pit with no direction, purpose or future.. the 10 year anniversary, seems to have turned into a fleece new players, dont care about player retention, and completely forget the mainline game .. death knell is sounding unfortunately

Funny, because what I remember of Steve and Scott were different things: multiple years lost in Railjack development before realizing it couldn't be done in the way they wanted and announced; the bitesize content mentality that took over the game for years until they realized people loved Arbitrations and they were headed in the wrong direction; the absolute refusal to give us high level enemies even though we could already one shot them in Simulacrum; being shocked when eidolons started getting one shot on day one (goes to show how much he knew his own game) then proceeding to nerf all other subsequent world bosses like the orbs and making combat more and more irrelevant for them (just puzzle bosses). I mean, what direction was that? You're delusional. WF is still the same game. 

On the other hand with Rebb/Pablo we have a TON of new game modes including the best one this game has ever had (void cascade), zero fear of giving us high level enemies with super fast scaling. I clearly see the direction they are going for here, and it's one I actually enjoy a lot more than back in the days of PoE when Steve was too afraid to let us fight high level enemies. 

[TeaHands]

My only gripe with it is it sounds like that you don't even get the option to install the Adapter on your weapons and still need Cavalero. They may have adressed it but hopefully there's something that stops players from being able to buy these if they don't have access to Zariman. Because the Adapter is absolutely useless otherwise.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I personally don't consider this P2W either, but I also know my own definition of that term, and that a lot of people have different definitions. So I usually don't really invest too much when people use the term, unless I have to converse with them, and then I make it a priority that we both generally know each others general definition, so we can at least agree or disagree on the same general idea of the term, first, before we argue its other merits. 

Also personally, I would try not frame anything as far as others helping crybabies or not. People are critical? No, they are actually crybabies who complain and smell like yucky. Well, also some people get big cry sad over DE being criticised. Now they are also big cry babies, crying and being a babu for a big Canadian business. Oh you are posting on the forums? Also a big crybaby, why not go out to the club with friends, like a cool person, instead you are at home, typing on a website... like a crybaby. Okay so everyone is a crybaby now, especially those you disagree with, do we have to point it out? See what I mean? I think its fine to agree to disagree or disagree to agree, no need to try an antagonise others preemptively, otherwise their rhetoric also starts to use similar rhetoric techniques.

Also I see why some are frustrated or suspicious. This isn't necessarily just farming, but depending when they are made available to farm, this could be incentivising people to spend Plat, because the only other way is more than a month away, potentially. There is a lot to farm in the game, but not much thats time gated, but there are a few things that are time gated, but depending on what, the exact circumstances can depend. Like certain Baro weapons are time gated by his visits, but you can technically bypass that with Plat... but via player trade, and that player required to have had brought it. Also its relatively fair in the sense, they were roughly or generally available to people generally. Well, then thats a bit more complex, some may have been available through other means originally, I forget the history of some weapons and alerts, but I think I made my point? Same with Wolf Sledge, thats sort of time gated... i do not think what DE is doing with this, is the worst, greediest thing ever or anything, but if you potentially have a situation where those who do not want to spend Plat, may have to wait a month, but does with Plat can buy the thing right away, ehh... 

Imagine if Wisp Prime release date was similar, one for those who spend real money can get her on July 27th, but those who will use Relics, release date, will be August 27th. Similar arguments can apply. Some people have money to spend on the game, why not let them if they want to? Spending money helps the game! If you want it for free, just wait and grind it. I mean... sure?!? I'll probably be buying Wisp Prime access for example, I do have disposable income, but eh, that would seem off and a bit too predatory for more liking. If this is a solution to a problem, I'd think DE could come up with a more elegant solution, and or such problems should have been considered earlier. Incarnon weapons have been some of the most talked about and hype additions to the game for many. Many people are excited for the idea of more, its one of the more popular thread topics these last few months, I think DE needs to really think of a way to implement solutions to potential problems, and make it as smooth as possible. Whether its so SP Circuit offers two Incarnon adapters that can be slotted to any weapon, adding more selections per week, etc Current situation could be quite frustrating. Especially f they add more. It also increases the FOMO for many too, you miss this week? Wait 2 months. Well if you are poor, since other people can just buy the new Incarnons.

For clarity, I have mixed feelings. Its not that big an issue for me, I don't view this as a huge negative, or DE being greedy or devious, but I can also see why some are a bit miffed too. I also think as far as solutions to problems they created, this isn't the most tactful. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

if we keep getting new incarnons it's gonna get to the point of someone having to wait 10 weeks for their Incarnon Stug

we've waited YEARS for the Stug to be any good, if it actually got a confirmed incarnon genesis, ten weeks is a drop in the bucket lol, especially if it ends up being powerful. 

I get your point though, the main problem isn't whether or not it's P2W (it's not), it's that adding more incarnons pads out the rotation, making it take longer for a specific one to come around. I don't see any reason they couldn't just make Incarnon Genesis a resource, you get 2 a week for SPC rank 5 and 10 respectively, and then you can add it to any compatible weapon of your choosing: this would have been a better way to go about it IMO.

still, we're here now, so I guess I'll keep waiting for Incarnon Stug.. any day now.. *whistles*

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"They didnt plan it" 

 

The hell they didnt, says me anyway.

 

And they can milk this every time new incarnons get added.

 

Seems too profitable to be an accident.

There can be happy accidents, That's how penicillin was discovered.

And while they may have planned it , possibly , My experiences with DE have just ... not made me too trusting of DEs planning capability.

 

[Skoomaseller]

my only reaction is that they will do anything but improve the S#&$ timegate that is rotating incarnon geneses. and no, I am not saying "I WANT IT NOW NOW NOW," put down the pitchforks, contrarians and strawmen.

classic DE 👍🏽 not fixing the root problems. 10 years btw!

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What is the difference between selling a few incarnons compared to selling frames, weapons and other stuff? 

My personal take on the incarnons here is that anyone who will spend money on them has no sense in their head to begin with, since these arent even RNG items, they are guaranteed simple short grinds, taking just a few hours per week to unlock.

And some players might not have that opportunity to complete it each week (like myself) due to there schedule. 

And would rather not wait weeks or even months until it comes back in a rotation. 

How players want to spend platinum is entirely up to them, especially when it's not that hard to get in the trade market. 

 

[DebrisFlow]

I saw quite some embarassment from Rebecca and Pablo while they were trying to explain the possible rationales behind the release of the new incarnon adapters that will come with the Echoes update (Devstream 172, min 27:45). Understandably enough, the insertion of the new adapters into the current design of a 6 week cycle may disrupt player progression, and a solution they propose would be to make them available for plat purchase. Still, a lot of awkwardness just to explain how this little inconvenience is justified in a free to play game and not pay to win. After all, we have all base warframes and weapons immediately available for plat.

What i still fail to understand is why they don't apply the same standard of shame when describing the 6 (going to be 7) weeks cycle "working as intended", when it blatantly puts a much greater disconfort and frustration on player progression compared to any other progression system ever created in the game. Enough words have been spent in different other threads on how this new corporate-driven and unfriendly reward scheme is simply unhealty and marching against the enjoyment of the game, yet no problem with that.

Dear developers, if you are truly concerned about the honesty of your design ethics you should look into reworking this absurd time gate. A compromise system friendly enough for everybody, without taking away the concept of diluting the rewards over a long time in a weekly schedule, is possible and easy. A solution with a weekly limit of 2 earnable tokens to buy whatever 2 incarnons you want, from an omni-present shop, would both satisfy the requirement of diluting rewards over a long time span AND avoiding that frustrating idea of waiting up to 7 weeks for a missed opportunity while losing the progress of the previous week.

Do you remember how stupid was to chase the lastly released Kuva weapons into infinite Cassini runs? That was changed for a reason. Now does it make sense to you that Cassini runs became weeks to wait?

[SneakyErvin]

36 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And some players might not have that opportunity to complete it each week (like myself) due to there schedule. 

And would rather not wait weeks or even months until it comes back in a rotation. 

How players want to spend platinum is entirely up to them, especially when it's not that hard to get in the trade market. 

 

At that point I personally wouldnt spend, since I just wouldnt be able to justify it if I play that little in a game. Nor would I want to remove a piece of content for those moments I actually have time to play.

[MaxiTB]

I don't care about Duviri at all, in fact I hate casinos and that game mode is basically the worst you can throw at someone in terms of RNG.

However adding P2W is a new low. Sure, there are some young kids here which grew up with their gotcha games and think 5 weeks is an acceptable time to wait for good game design; honestly waiting 3 days is already borderline, 5 weeks is a joke. And hearing in the dev stream an argument like "you can trade plat so it's not P2W" is a little bit insulting honestly, nobody is that dumb to understand what a premium currency is.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

At that point I personally wouldnt spend, since I just wouldnt be able to justify it if I play that little in a game. Nor would I want to remove a piece of content for those moments I actually have time to play.

And that's your prerogative however what you value and what I or others value to spend platinum on is very different. 

I can only speak for myself but my schedule is 2 weeks on/off. When I'm at work, I only have so much free time as I'm also on-call. (I stay where I work). 

I can't get through a full Circuit with the time I do have. So generally, during this time is where I'm more active in the trade chat. 

In 30 minutes of time I'm making platinum. So in 30 minutes...I can bypass the 3-5 hour weekly Circuit and still get the incarnon that I may want this way.

So personally, I value this. Platinum isn't hard to come by and it's not coming out of my pocket. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

10 minutes ago, MaxiTB said:

I don't care about Duviri at all, in fact I hate casinos and that game mode is basically the worst you can throw at someone in terms of RNG.

However adding P2W is a new low. Sure, there are some young kids here which grew up with their gotcha games and think 5 weeks is an acceptable time to wait for good game design; honestly waiting 3 days is already borderline, 5 weeks is a joke. And hearing in the dev stream an argument like "you can trade plat so it's not P2W" is a little bit insulting honestly, nobody is that dumb to understand what a premium currency is.

Execpt you actually can trade for it. If you couldn't then I'd see your point but the fact is this game has a trade economy with the premium currency involved in it.

This isn't pay to win, more like Pay to Rush. Which has already been apart of the games market structure since the games inception.

The only way this would  really be P2W is if your a brand new player and buying an Incarnon grants you:

- The MR required for the weapon

- Completing the Star-Chart granting SP access

- Access to Angel's of Zariman.

Your not getting any of that.