The Dominance of Slash and Hunter Munitions

[RichardKam]

52分钟前 , (PSN)Joylesstuna 说:

Show me where they said the game is balanced around regular start chart. Absolutely nothing points to this.

In one of Pablo interview, I think.

But just look at how new contents were added to the game, it should be very obvious to you the game was designed around regular star chart. The highest level enemies DE hand pick into the game are the Archon hunt at level 150 with no extra scaling. Next things are veil proxima, sortie and zariman bounty. The newest stuff DE hand pick into the game are all accessible in regular star chart, including the Duviri arcanes. 

The only stuff that are arguably exclusive to SP are gun arcanes and new incarnon genesis. Gun arcanes can be brought dirt cheap with plat. The last wave of incarnon genesis can be brought with plat. 

SP is just a lawless land, and should not be a consideration when trying to balance the game. 

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, RichardKam said:

DE stated explicitly, the game is not balanced around SP. It is balanced in regular starchart.

I do recall DE stating they won't be looking to balance around SP back when SP was released, but that ship sailed when they decided to add weapon arcanes, as it was released as a balancing measure for SP content. 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I have no especially strong positive or negative opinions on the dominance of Slash and Hunter Munitions, Viral etc. As in, if there was a small meta shift, or a large one, I wouldn't mind, but also if nothing changed too much, I also wouldn't really mind. It can get a little... There are a lot of us, with different play styles, ideas, expectations on why and how the game should be balanced and whats good. To side step a bit, I tend to make small mental notes when people make suggestions about Warframe... Like a few weeks ago, was a thread where someone wanted Faction/Bane mods to be buffed, because at current they didn't feel motivated enough to use them. I thought it was a bit of an odd sentiment, because to many, thats an advantage. They are powerful mods, but not absolutely necessary. You can manage fine by ignoring them and pretending they don't exist, because having to constantly change config slots or mods... that would be annoying to many. If you enter the territory where such mods are buffed, that people who don't use them, are seriously falling behind those that do or content thats released... Except then you still have people like that player who wanted them to be so buffed, that they would feel obligated? Forced to use them? 

So, not in all, but in some ways, I can see similarities with certain other elements of the game. The reason I don't mind too much, is because, sometimes I think its not the worst, for a game, with so many weapons, options, modes, enemy levels, challenges etc and ways to play in Warframe, to have something of a meta element. Something that might be a bit boring, but dominant, thus becoming a bit of a safe choice, a lazy option. "I just got a new weapon, I want to test it and use it and level it? Well I will slap Viral/Hunter Munitions on it to start, to at least level then go from there, etc". I mean, ideally, for variety sake and to make things more interesting, there wouldn't be such a huge gap between certain element/damage types, but ehh... I think the recent Puncture, Cold etc changes are a decent start. 

I also think its very viable for players to mess around with different mods, elements, etc too and still use weapons effectively in most places including Steel Path. I have a few weapons that are are fun and I like them because I don't just build Viral/Slash or Hunter Mumu. Granted some may require more set up as far as Warframe abilities for synergy, but eh. So I have some Electric, Heat only, Slash only (no other modded elements), Gas, etc weapons. Mind you, I also remember a lot of guns struggled a bit in Steel Path, prior to Galvanised Mods and Gun Arcanes... not even Hunter Mumu could help them much. At the time. In combination with Galvanised Mods and Gun Arcanes, well yeah but... Same with Internal Bleeding and Hemo. For myself, their ability to become a bit more competitive was a bigger positive than say slash being so dominant.

Again, not that I'd be against changes, just.. For example, I really like a lot of the incarnon weapons, and small neat tricks and gimmicks, which can allow for more build variety. I also like some of the new Decrees from Duviri. I think it could be interesting if newer weapons, had small interesting innate or inherent tricks which could promote and encourage different modding/builds, whilst not making players feel like they are undermining their own effectiveness. 

Its also why I think certain weapons, like Cedo, Epitaph, are quite popular and well liked. They aren't super OP, but they have interesting gimmicks but are also effective (though you also run the risk of weapons like Alternox and Steflos which are more... polarising). 

[taiiat]

for Circuit specifically, Slash is inevitable to be of high value because you're guaranteed to be against Enemies with Armor, without being able to pick all of your Gear.
though Overguard is a significant presence too.

elsewhere in the game, you can pick all of your Gear and so it's pretty easy to obliterate things without Slash.

 

 

but it's pretty fine, most Weapons will perform fine with other Mod Loadouts anyways. the only Gamemode you're really crunched for DPS tbh is Defense, followed by Survival. but the Kill rate needed for Survival isn't that high. and Defense is only because you're probably going to have ass for CC so you have to just Kill them faster instead.

Edited August 22, 2023 by taiiat

[FiveN9ne]

15 hours ago, nslay said:

This video sums up my experience (with an exaggerated cohort of enemies)... now I don't have a nice Riven for Glaive Prime so I did an initial demonstration with Cerata's Riven. Then I did it with the Riven and even though it's one of the milder Riven with no negatives, it does make a big difference!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Notice how Glaive Prime Slash procs seems to be slower at removing the Overguard for some reason. Maybe I shouldn't have the Viral mods on the Glaive Prime because I have my priming weapons doing that. Or maybe it has to do with the 0.35 multiplier on the Slash DoT math vs Toxin's larger 0.5 multiplier... or both.

Related... which damage type generalizes better to all factions/types of targets? The Cerata needs a little help, but it's like night and day between the two weapons and it does manage to clear an exaggerated cohort of enemies... and this will will scale for a little while! It will break down when even 10% enemy armor is a relatively large number. I guess Glaive Prime could be helped with a Viral/Magnetic weapon... but the magnetic status does nothing to unshielded targets while Corrosive/Viral/Heat works the same for Toxin regardless of shield presence! Yeah, I don't think Slash is amazing though it is useful for one type of enemy.

Now imagine if those Guardian Eximus Techs' DR effects were affecting the Exo Gokstadt Officers? Yeah, Slash is painfully bad in that kind of situation with Corrupted enemies (where Guardian Eximus would affect their comrade Corrupted Bombards/Corrupted Heavy Gunners). So I tend to use Cerata, Phage and Catabolyst in all SP content since this single combo works well enough for all enemies.

Toxin formula:

Tick dmg = 0.5 x base dmg x (1 + toxin dmg) x (1 + faction) x other multipliers

Slash formula:

Tick dmg = 0.35 x base dmg x (1 + faction) x other multipliers

To clarify, it would be somewhat equal if you had 165% roar buff for slash because you had primed fever for toxin. And then still theres the 0.35 vs 0.5 difference

Edited August 22, 2023 by FiveN9ne

[nslay]

44 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

Toxin formula:

Tick dmg = 0.5 x base dmg x (1 + toxin dmg) x (1 + faction) x other multipliers

Slash formula:

Tick dmg = 0.35 x base dmg x (1 + faction) x other multipliers

To clarify, it would be somewhat equal if you had 165% roar buff for slash because you had primed fever for toxin. And then still theres the 0.35 vs 0.5 difference

I see, so while both use Primed Fever Strike, Cerata's Toxin Tic damage is amplified by Primed Fever Strike while Glaive Prime's Slash Tics have no such similar multiplier.

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, -Krism- said:

Go watch k engineers video on it then back to me. 

The math doesnt lie.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

8 hours ago, RichardKam said:

In one of Pablo interview, I think.

But just look at how new contents were added to the game, it should be very obvious to you the game was designed around regular star chart. The highest level enemies DE hand pick into the game are the Archon hunt at level 150 with no extra scaling. Next things are veil proxima, sortie and zariman bounty. The newest stuff DE hand pick into the game are all accessible in regular star chart, including the Duviri arcanes. 

The only stuff that are arguably exclusive to SP are gun arcanes and new incarnon genesis. Gun arcanes can be brought dirt cheap with plat. The last wave of incarnon genesis can be brought with plat. 

SP is just a lawless land, and should not be a consideration when trying to balance the game. 

Weapons can be equipped with two mods and beat almost all of star chart let alone the incarnons. I really don't see how that is proper balance for regular chart either. I guess what I'm trying to say is the game isnt balanced around either mode nor is DE capable of that.

Edited August 22, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[-Krism-]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Go watch k engineers video on it then back to me. 

The math doesnt lie.

I don't need the video of someone else to play with what I like, I do my own tests based on the content I play

 

If you want to play SP missions 5h at a time, then yeah, sure, keep your viral+slash build

For regular content, you know, the one I play to enjoy & have fun with the game, all elements have their uses in different situations

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

19 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

I don't need the video of someone else to play with what I like, I do my own tests based on the content I play

 

If you want to play SP missions 5h at a time, then yeah, sure, keep your viral+slash build

For regular content, you know, the one I play to enjoy & have fun with the game, all elements have their uses in different situations

Cold's CD buff is like a 12% more damage at max stacks. Flat +0.5 CD just doesn't do much when your CD mods provide so much more already. Puncture's CC buff is more impactful, but it doesn't change anything in the end. You simply won't mod for Puncture as the returns aren't worth it. There will be weapons that incidentally benefit from it sure, but not because you built into it.

The decision to mod for those elements would be tied to you simply wanting to, not because of the recent changes. Those changes did little to enhance their desirability.

[-Krism-]

23 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Cold's CD buff is like a 12% more damage at max stacks. Flat +0.5 CD just doesn't do much when your CD mods provide so much more already. Puncture's CC buff is more impactful, but it doesn't change anything in the end. You simply won't mod for Puncture as the returns aren't worth it. There will be weapons that incidentally benefit from it sure, but not because you built into it.

The decision to mod for those elements would be tied to you simply wanting to, not because of the recent changes. Those changes did little to enhance their desirability.

You completely disregarded my statement about the content played & only talked about the damage output

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

You completely disregarded my statement about the content played & only talked about the damage output

Because the other changes did little too

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Those changes did little to enhance their desirability.

Is referring to all the changes, not just the Crit related buffs

[-Krism-]

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because the other changes did little too

What?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, -Krism- said:

What?

... The topic of the chain was the changes to Puncture and Cold. I'm saying that none of the changes to them in U32.3 noticeably improved their desirability, not the increased CC buff from Puncture, not the increased CD buff from Cold, nor the increased debuff amounts on both.

[-Krism-]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

... The topic of the chain was the changes to Puncture and Cold. I'm saying that none of the changes to them in U32.3 noticeably improved their desirability, not the increased CC buff from Puncture, not the increased CD buff from Cold, nor the increased debuff amounts on both.

I do

/thread I guess, unless you want to force your view of things on me ¯\_(:/)_/¯

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

14 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

I do

Okay, how did those changes noticeably improve their desirability and reason to mod for them.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

For regular content, you know, the one I play to enjoy & have fun with the game, all elements have their uses in different situations

What content are you playing where you think, "Ah, it's time to build for Blast again!"  :P

 

[-Krism-]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

What content are you playing where you think, "Ah, it's time to build for Blast again!"  :P

 

Blast is garbage, where did I say I used it?

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

Blast is garbage, where did I say I used it?

In the line I quoted, you said "For regular content, you know, the one I play to enjoy & have fun with the game, all elements have their uses in different situations."

I'll just assume you didn't mean to imply combined elements unless you have a different explanation. 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

What content are you playing where you think, "Ah, it's time to build for Blast again!"  :P

 

You could say that when using the Pox but not anymore unfortunately.

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

On 2023-08-20 at 11:43 AM, Tiltskillet said:

AFAIC the issue is  armored ehp  more than bleeds.  In any case I'd hope that armor scaling and the fragility of unarmored units would get addressed before looking at bleeds.

This. 
You know why Duviri is the most balanced enemy type? Because they dont have stupid levels of armor. They were MADE with steel path in mind, and it shows. 

Corpus are fine as they are but grineer need their armor slashed and their health increased.

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 hour ago, (PSN)ARC_Paroe said:

 Because they dont have stupid levels of armor. 

It's obvious when you look at it. How much better the game and DE just sees Armor.

You never see higher end enemies get shields, it's always armour. They could've made it so that the a a Corpus sisters don't have armour, but they still have it. The hounds have armour, the the Mother Orbs, the fluctus enemies, the rakta kynoids.

The only exception is probably the Treasurer, and even then they make it so that the DR with his shields might as well just BE armor DR scaling.

You never see Grineer Manics or Bombards or Gunners get shields, but the heavy units from Corpus get armor even if it's Alloy.

[GPrime96]

On 2023-08-21 at 2:53 PM, Silligoose said:

As one enters higher levels of content the DR scaling, together with armour scaling, leads to the EHP of armoured enemies skyrocketing in comparison with non-armoured enemies, with the vast majority of that EHP hinging on armour, to the point where it grants a lvl 140 Elite Lancer on SP just over 96,37% DR (effectively increasing HP by x27,6) or a lvl 140 SP Heavy Gunner around 98,57% DR (effectively increasing health by x70), anything that doesn't completely bypass armour, does a lot less damage. Even elements that decrease armour values and/or partially bypass armour values are severely affected by the remaining armour and associated DR. As a result, players tend to look at either using Bleed (paired with Viral), or just completely stripping armour, both of which are incredibly good options and outperform other options by far. Once armour is stripped, Slash tends to have damage type bonusses against the health type beneath the armour.

This alone is why Slash is about as common as armor stripping, armor scaling’s no joke.

[-Krism-]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

In the line I quoted, you said "For regular content, you know, the one I play to enjoy & have fun with the game, all elements have their uses in different situations."

I'll just assume you didn't mean to imply combined elements unless you have a different explanation. 

Tbh, I completely forgot Blast was a thing, & now that I think about it, Mag too, so scrap that one, I just forgot they both existed :/

 

What I meant to say was, as you probably guessed it, other elements than the basic viral+slash combo have their uses, like Toxin, Elec, Heat, Rad, Corr, Viral, & even Gas, & now Cold & Puncture

So the only ones I still don't use being Impact, since only very few enemies can be Mercied & the stagger effect is useless, Mag, since Toxin is just better at dealing with shields, & Blast which is just bad

[Sojufueled]

Unless you're at like level 1000+ I don't really think slash is as dominant as you think. There are people taking raw corrosive to level cap. Most weapons are ludicrously strong as is.