voidrig is pay 2 win ?

[alxsander37]

Credo che questa discussione sia andata avanti piu' del dovuto,sembra ovvio che OP abbia le idee un poco confuse su come funziona warframe,molti qui hanno cercato di aiutare mostrando varie opzioni,per quanto riguarda il mech....non è difficile da ottenere,ovviamente richiede la sua fattoria,e un poco noioso da preparare visto che per portarlo a livello massimo ci vogliono 5 forma e almeno due o tre per i cannoni a spalla come ho gia' detto,ma il risultato secondo me vale la fatica,fa' milioni di danni e ancora oggi lo uso nelle taglie dei mondi aperti in SP, TNW rispetto elle altre quest richiede un minimo di preparazione,compresa quella del raijack,la cosa che mi stupisce un poco e che un giocatore arrivato al punto di poter affrontare TNW non abbia ancora ottenuto un mech,ogni cosa su warframe puo' essere ottenuta gratuitamente,a parte i cosmetici,ma ogni cosa richiede che tu occupi un poco di tempo per la sua fattoria,GG

[trst]

If you define p2w as paying for a benefit and define benefit as any form of convenience then yes, the entire game is p2w.

And that's really the whole problem with the argument. As where someone stands on this topic depends entirely on what they personally believe these terms should be defined as.

But this whole thing gets further muddied by the fact that platinum can be earned via trade without paying for it. And then even further so if one still considers that p2w as the original source of that plat paid for it for the benefit of trading it for something.

 

Personally as far as I'm concerned all that really matters is how a game's monetization compares to other games. Which from my own experience with other games I have played WF's is incredibly fair with paid content being only convenience and cosmetics, no grinds being egregious enough (relative to most other games) to "force" players into the convenience purchase, and that premium currency is tradable and regularly discounted.

[Silligoose]

22 hours ago, VertxPrime said:

trying to get one now...

Its a requirement to enter the new war

it's locked behind an 82 hour craft time (not even warframes take this long to build)

requires more parts than warframes to build

its requiring hours running isolation vaults framing parts

its requiring hours more of mining and crafting, and mining more so I can craft the things I already mined.

its probably going to need leveling up and all regular mod stuff

for what ? a 2 minute summon of basically a worse "warframe" on 10 minute cooldown that can be used almost NOWHERE in the game, is that right ?

or you can cough up 375 plat to skip get it instantly and not have to farm and craft for weeks to get straight onto new war and never need it again?

really has to be one of the most pay to win feeling things I have run into in this game, change my mind !

Fanboys don't like people saying Warframe is p2w and instead parrot what they've been told by salesmen such as it isn't p2w, but "pay2skip" or "pay4convenience" or something along those lines. Some parrot it because they think p2w is predatory and they believe they are above supporting that type of business model, so they justify supporting it by calling it something else. Others just get duped lol. 

Warframe is p2w and Voidrig is one of the examples. Generally Warframe doesn't lean too hard into the p2w model, but there are some times when it obvious the p2w model influenced grinds or timegates rather egregiously. Voidrig seems to be an example. Incarnon Genesis weapons with their timegates are another.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Silligoose

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

23 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Fanboys don't like people saying Warframe is p2w and instead parrot what they've been told by salesmen such as it isn't p2w, but "pay2skip" or "pay4convenience" or something along those lines. Some parrot it because they think p2w is predatory and they believe they are above supporting that type of business model, so they justify supporting it by calling it something else. Others just get duped lol. 

Warframe is p2w and Voidrig is one of the examples. Generally Warframe doesn't lean too hard into the p2w model, but there are some times when it obvious the p2w model influenced grinds or timegates rather egregiously. Voidrig seems to be an example. Incarnon Genesis weapons with their timegates are another.

You say it's p2w but what you mention don't fit that definition, you can acquire a necramech by farming it and you can get incarnon weapons by farming them, pretty much everything in this game that affects your gameplay is something you can get without spending money on it.

[ShogunGunshow]

TBF to OP, it is a meaningless roadblock for the New War. You're in your necramech for a fraction of a fraction of that quest, and you could have easily had broken ones around for the player to possess and not require them to grind up their own for it. It being so obnoxious to craft and being so ancillary to the actual quest makes it pretty clear that DE just has it the way it is to make a lot of people pay the plat. 

[Silligoose]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

You say it's p2w but what you mention don't fit that definition, you can acquire a necramech by farming it and you can get incarnon weapons by farming them, pretty much everything in this game that affects your gameplay is something you can get without spending money on it.

P2w refers to a business model in which use of real world money can result in an advantage to the player. In Warframe, that advantage tends to mean skipping timegates or grinds.  Being able to attain the items by way of farming doesn't change this. "P2skip" and "pay4convenience" are PR terms fed to consumers so the stigma of p2w can be avoided. Dungeon Keeper Mobile's devs tried to sell the idea that their game isn't p2w because one can farm everything. Iirc Diablo Immortal devs claimed the same thing. Both are also p2w.

Too many people try to think up their own special definition of p2w and then argue the game doesn't fall within that definition. Below are some definitions found online regarding p2w from another thread:

On 2022-11-04 at 9:48 PM, Silligoose said:

PAY TO WIN (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary "in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others".

What is Pay-to-win? (computerhope.com) "Pay-to-win, abbreviated as P2W, describes an aspect of a game where players are allowed to get an advantage with real-world currency to purchase in-game items. The pay-to-win structure is prevalent in both multiplayer online games through DLC (downloadable content) and mobile games through in-app purchases."

What Is "Pay-to-Win" in Video Games? (makeuseof.com) "In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money."

P2W | What Does P2W Mean? (cyberdefinitions.com) "P2W is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win," to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters)."

P2W Meaning Explained - What Are P2W Games? (esports.net) "This means that you’ll actually be buying things like loot crates or even skins to gain an advantage over other players who haven’t purchased the items."

Pay to Win – Meaning, Origin, Usage (digitalcultures.net) "Pay to win is an expression for games that promote themselves as “free to play” but offer purchasable content that puts buyers into a favorable position over their fellow players who are playing the game freely."

What Are Pay-to-Win Games? The Best and Worst of 2022 (gamedesigning.org) "Users and players willing to shell out a few extra bucks to access features that are normally unlocked as the game progresses can give some serious advantage, especially in online games."

 

 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

8 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

P2w refers to a business model in which use of real world money can result in an advantage to the player. In Warframe, that advantage tends to mean skipping timegates or grinds.  Being able to attain the items by way of farming doesn't change this. "P2skip" and "pay4convenience" are PR terms fed to consumers so the stigma of p2w can be avoided. Dungeon Keeper Mobile's devs tried to sell the idea that their game isn't p2w because one can farm everything. Iirc Diablo Immortal devs claimed the same thing. Both are also p2w.

Too many people try to think up their own special definition of p2w and then argue the game doesn't fall within that definition. Below are some definitions found online regarding p2w from another thread:

 

What's the advantage though?

The f2p player is gonna get a necramech, for example, eventually and it can be just as strong as the necramech of the player that spent money to get it.

[CephalonOlphus]

3 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

P2w refers to a business model in which use of real world money can result in an advantage to the player. In Warframe, that advantage tends to mean skipping timegates or grinds.  Being able to attain the items by way of farming doesn't change this. "P2skip" and "pay4convenience" are PR terms fed to consumers so the stigma of p2w can be avoided. Dungeon Keeper Mobile's devs tried to sell the idea that their game isn't p2w because one can farm everything. Iirc Diablo Immortal devs claimed the same thing. Both are also p2w.

Too many people try to think up their own special definition of p2w and then argue the game doesn't fall within that definition. Below are some definitions found online regarding p2w from another thread:

 

P2W has been dumbed down and recontextualized over the last 2 decades or so. The original definition came from the many eastern MMO's that had cash shops with items you could only obtain through them. e.g. Some had endgame gear as purchasable shop items, often better than actual drops, and unobtainable otherwise.

A necramech or Incarnon weapon are both pretty easy grinds provided you know what you're doing. If the OP takes a week, but i only take a day to farm parts and materials does that mean knowledge is P2W? the only benefit from paying is saving time, since OP isn't getting any immediate power boost, they're just using the necramech as a step for New War.

[Silligoose]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

What's the advantage though?

The f2p player is gonna get a necramech, for example, eventually and it can be just as strong as the necramech of the player that spent money to get it.

16 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

In Warframe, that advantage tends to mean skipping timegates or grinds.

 

4 minutes ago, Olphus said:

P2W has been dumbed down and recontextualized over the last 2 decades or so. The original definition came from the many eastern MMO's that had cash shops with items you could only obtain through them. e.g. Some had endgame gear as purchasable shop items, often better than actual drops, and unobtainable otherwise.

A necramech or Incarnon weapon are both pretty easy grinds provided you know what you're doing. If the OP takes a week, but i only take a day to farm parts and materials does that mean knowledge is P2W? the only benefit from paying is saving time, since OP isn't getting any immediate power boost, they're just using the necramech as a step for New War.

An item that affects gameplay by way of mechanics need not be exclusive by way of real-world money for a game to be p2w. Doesn't matter if the grind/timegate skipped is a week, a day, or an hour - if it can be skipped, it is an advantage. If that advantage can be attained by way of real world money, it is p2w. It doesn't necessarily mean it is bad or evil - it is simply the business model used.

[trst]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Fanboys don't like people saying Warframe is p2w and instead parrot what they've been told by salesmen such as it isn't p2w, but "pay2skip" or "pay4convenience" or something along those lines. Some parrot it because they think p2w is predatory and they believe they are above supporting that type of business model, so they justify supporting it by calling it something else. Others just get duped lol. 

Warframe is p2w and Voidrig is one of the examples. Generally Warframe doesn't lean too hard into the p2w model, but there are some times when it obvious the p2w model influenced grinds or timegates rather egregiously. Voidrig seems to be an example. Incarnon Genesis weapons with their timegates are another.

The problem with calling "pay2skip" and "pay4convienence" the same a p2w is that is feels disingenuous. Because it's not as predatory as the type of p2w where you can pay for direct power/features with no free/reasonable alternative.

Technically yes by the definition of p2w being that you can pay for any advantage WF is fully p2w. But it is worth considering that such a definition is too broad due to how massive of a gap there is between a game like WF and one where you can pay for an advantage with no free/reasonable alternatives. Like calling both WF and any mobile game that forces you to pay or wait several irl days between every action you take kinda kills any meaning the term has.

[TurjanMi.ir]

20 hours ago, taiiat said:

however, New War may be late as a Quest in terms of linear order, but it's easy to start a new Account and be at New War before you've collected the majority of the Mods or before you've reached Arbitration/Steel Path, Et Cetera.

Nowadays, you have to have finished the New War before you can even think of clearing the Star Chart or doing Arbitrations or Steel Path. And yes, the Necramech was a bit of a grind, although I personally can't really complain as I got lucky with the drops. I guess people would feel less annoyed if the Necramech was actually used much in the New War quest or elsewhere.

[PollexMessier]

It's important to be aware that most major story quests were released years apart from eachother and are expecting you to have made reasonable progress in the side content that was released in between them. The game's balanced around you doing a lot of the side content, not just rushing through the main story. To anyone that does that, voidrig doesn't look like much of a bad grind because there's many much worse grinds in the game off the beaten path.

You probably noticed Umbra was a complete nightmare to fight, felt incredibly unfair, and the only reason you had any chance of beating him is cus your progress against his health doesn't reset when he kills you, and you had infinite revives... this is cus his fight is balanced around you having actually done a significant amount of stuff from Cetus. Particularly the plains bosses, and quills syndicate to upgrade your operator. With even moderate gear from the quills and a handful of focus school skills the umbra fight is incredibly easy. But even getting to that point requires a high degree of progress in weapon power, having a frame capable of dealing with the bosses, and some focus school progress. Fortuna now exists as an alternative path to decking out your operator and has substantially more powerful amps. But requires way more syndicate progress to get to that point, while skipping over needing to deal with tough complicated boss fights. But nearly everyone skips over operator progression and just brute forces the sacrifice for a terrible experience. Which, to be fair is the game's fault for not making it clear you should have done that first.

New war expects you to have more or less completed railjack (although the requirement to reach veil proxima was removed and I think this was a big mistake on the developers part), A lot of Necralisk stuff, and also what the sacrifice expected you to have completed.
You're going to want to at least also have a really good Amp for your operator going into the quest.

Just take your time with side stuff and don't rush through the story. Way too many new players just rush though it and get frustrated with stuff like this. Take your time, explore, try some side stuff, you're not on a time limit. Treat it like skyrim, the side stuff is literally meant to divert you from the main story.

Also don't worry about leveling your mech and modding it up after getting it cus it's used for like 2 minutes. All that said, it's part in the quest could've been completely removed and absolutely nothing would have been lost. Tho honestly, with the amount of people that get stuck in new war because they were unprepared for it, I think the game could stand to have a substantial amount more progression gates like this. #1 of which is guilding a modular amp.

Edited September 15, 2023 by PollexMessier

[TurjanMi.ir]

5 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

New war expects you to have more or less completed railjack (although the requirement to reach veil proxima was removed and I think this was a big mistake on the developers part), A lot of Necralisk stuff, and also what the sacrifice expected you to have completed.

You're going to want to at least also have a really good Amp for your operator going into the quest.

Regarding Railjack, I had Mk1 stuff installed during the New War quest. It was a bit tediious, but not difficult. A better gun on the Railjack would have been nice to have, I guess. The rest doesn't matter.
Regarding amp, I had a 111, which did the job. I had somewhat invested into Zenurik, but that was all.

I agree fully with what you said about the Sacrifice though. That fight against Umbra was a very tedious matter of attrition with that mote amp and nothing else.

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

An item that affects gameplay by way of mechanics need not be exclusive by way of real-world money for a game to be p2w. Doesn't matter if the grind/timegate skipped is a week, a day, or an hour - if it can be skipped, it is an advantage. If that advantage can be attained by way of real world money, it is p2w. It doesn't necessarily mean it is bad or evil - it is simply the business model used.

Imagine being so absolutely confidently wrong. Yikes.

[kamisama85]

So does that mean every time we choose a faster shipping option for online shopping, we are pay2win?  If so, then what's the big deal?

[LuckyCharm]

Hear me out tho.. pay to win in a multiplayer game like this isnt just about paying for power. Its about keeping up with the current progression of others too. I'm sure many of you have noticed how many dead nodes there are in this game where youre lucky to get a party even during peak hours. Farming for things like nidus etc are a real slog when you've got to solo those nodes. It gets that way with the necramech farming. Its still rare these days that id even find an iso vault party let alone one going for multiple runs to farm the thing. But if you dont have the mech you cant do the next part of the game where everyone else is populating it so you still run that risk of not being able to find parties by the time you get there. 

Thats how games like this get you, i used to play a lot of mmo's where this sort of thing was the same, where you had people at endgame, but all the previous dungeons etc had almost no people running them because everyone had already gone and finished them. Kinda what makes it so predatory to have roadblocks like the necramech locked behind hours of grind with the only other way to obtain it being cash shop. When those nodes get less people doin em it really feels like youre grinding alone for hours

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, TurjanMi.ir said:

Nowadays, you have to have finished the New War before you can even think of clearing the Star Chart or doing Arbitrations or Steel Path. And yes, the Necramech was a bit of a grind, although I personally can't really complain as I got lucky with the drops. I guess people would feel less annoyed if the Necramech was actually used much in the New War quest or elsewhere.

yeah, it might be warranted to change this up, or just not require a Mech for the Quest and you get a loaner.

at the time the Grind was pretty fine in all respects i think, since it was giving Players something to do.

[RichardKam]

Isolation vault is OK-ish. At least it is not time-gated like exploiter orb or "where the hell are you" thumper.

Also. Don't buy it from the market. It is much cheaper just to trade for parts with plat. 

[TheGuyver]

I went into trade chat after reading this thread and asked if anyone had any spare necramech parts and was immediately showered in easily 20+ messages offering the set for free with base mods. I'm not even including the plat offers.

The sheer amount of stupid lazy and entitled people really drag this whole thing down for the rest of us.

[0_The_F00l]

I didn't pay for it , though i have traded away parts to those that wanted it.

Is it grindy ? Sure , right most other things in the game.

While i do agree that the requirement to have a mech in the quest (and even railjack) is rather pointless and could have been managed well enough with snake or even without a mech at all it is a relatively manageable farm now especially since the parts are tradable.

[Silligoose]

10 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Imagine being so absolutely confidently wrong. Yikes.

I cited sources for my opinion. You on the other hand needed someone to point out that being able to skip a timegate or grind can be an advantage. So your rebuttal is trying to appeal to fanboys? 😂 

12 hours ago, trst said:

The problem with calling "pay2skip" and "pay4convienence" the same a p2w is that is feels disingenuous. Because it's not as predatory as the type of p2w where you can pay for direct power/features with no free/reasonable alternative.

Technically yes by the definition of p2w being that you can pay for any advantage WF is fully p2w. But it is worth considering that such a definition is too broad due to how massive of a gap there is between a game like WF and one where you can pay for an advantage with no free/reasonable alternatives. Like calling both WF and any mobile game that forces you to pay or wait several irl days between every action you take kinda kills any meaning the term has.

They are not the same and I'm not calling the same. A game with "pay2skip" mechanics can be non-p2w and I find it disingenuous that devs or players would put forth the idea that a game isn't p2w, but instead p2skip, because all gameplay-affecting assets can be farmed, regardless of time required for said farm.

P2w is p2w. That's the business model used. Some games are more egregious with their p2w mechanics than others, but games should be seen for what they are. Warframe does p2w pretty well, though some of the grinds are a little rough and some of the balance changes are a little blatantly influenced by the business model.

[Mr.SpookSpook]

You don't really know what Pay2Win means, do you?

 

But necramechs being mostly useless in game and not worth the effort required to make them is true.

[-Krism-]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

I cited sources for my opinion.

& yet you fail to see how you're still wrong, *slow clap*

[Silligoose]

5 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

& yet you fail to see how you're still wrong, *slow clap*

Go ahead and tell me instead making useless posts to get a few likes from fanboys.

Make your case. Cite your sources. Lay out an actual rebuttal with substance that isn't a complete joke.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Silligoose

[-Krism-]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Go ahead and tell me instead making useless posts to get a few likes from fanboys.

Make your case. Cite your sources. Lay out an actual rebuttal with substance that isn't a complete joke.

_{I'm pretty sure you're the only one who cares about fake internet points}

I don't need to add anything else to what was already said; Every, single, one, of these replies answer why it's not P2W & why you're wrong, you are the one who refuses to see & admit it:

 

On 2023-09-13 at 11:10 PM, LittleLeoniePrime said:

you don't win anything when you're able to do the new war.

 

On 2023-09-13 at 11:19 PM, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

I paid 97 plat for mine, best use of a 75% off coupon ever.

I didn't win anything with it though, just skipped a god awful grind.

 

On 2023-09-13 at 11:37 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

When Necramechs were first added to the game, they were not required for any content.  You could not purchase them, You could only farm them.  And they were harder to farm than they are now, with lower drop rates and higher material requirements.

It was only after enough players asked to be able to purchase Necramechs that they became purchasable items in the market Market several months after their initial launch.

And it wouldn't be until 1 year later that Necramechs would actually be required for something: The New War.  In advance of this milestone, DE nerfed the difficulty of building Necramechs.

 

On 2023-09-13 at 11:59 PM, Stormandreas said:

Pay 2 Win implies you're winning something. You are not, this is not a competitive PvP game, you aren't winning, you are skipping. It's simply Pay 2 Skip.

But... oh noooo... you have to play the game to progress... oh dear... Yes, this is snarky, because yes, it's a silly complaint. This is a free to play game that requires you to spend time playing and grinding to get anywhere. You aren't just handed everything on a platter for free, you have to put effort in, or, put money in if you CBA doing the effort, that's how free to play, and honestly, most games, work.

 

On 2023-09-14 at 12:31 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

On 2023-09-13 at 10:25 PM, VertxPrime said:

for what ? a 2 minute summon of basically a worse "warframe" on 10 minute cooldown that can be used almost NOWHERE in the game, is that right ?

that only applies in Conjunction survival; you can use mechs as much as you want on Open Worlds maps (Plains, Orb Vallis and Deimos) and in railjack missions both aboard the Railjack and when aboard enemy bases/ships. the cooldown only applies there if the mech is destroyed, but with a full complement of mods, the Voidrig is actually VERY hard for enemies to kill, even in railjack. 

as for "pay 2 win"... I wish people would stop using terms they don't fully understand. 

 

On 2023-09-14 at 2:00 AM, MagPrime said:

It's not pay2win simply because having the Mech doesn't get you much.  You have to level it you have to get mods for it & you have to level it's weapon.  It's barely pay2skip because of the time & resources needed to get all MR out of it (it goes to R40) and the farming that goes into getting the mods from Loid if you don't want to buy them off other players.

 

18 hours ago, Quimoth said:

Luckily it is s(kip)2w at most... but then again what are you "winning" by doing so in a pve game?

PvP in Warframe has no mechs and even if it did it probably would only revive PvP for a moment because barely anyone here ever launched Warframe for the PvP experience.

 

17 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

You say it's p2w but what you mention don't fit that definition, you can acquire a necramech by farming it and you can get incarnon weapons by farming them, pretty much everything in this game that affects your gameplay is something you can get without spending money on it.

 

17 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

What's the advantage though?

The f2p player is gonna get a necramech, for example, eventually and it can be just as strong as the necramech of the player that spent money to get it.

 

17 hours ago, Olphus said:

P2W has been dumbed down and recontextualized over the last 2 decades or so. The original definition came from the many eastern MMO's that had cash shops with items you could only obtain through them. e.g. Some had endgame gear as purchasable shop items, often better than actual drops, and unobtainable otherwise.

A necramech or Incarnon weapon are both pretty easy grinds provided you know what you're doing. If the OP takes a week, but i only take a day to farm parts and materials does that mean knowledge is P2W? the only benefit from paying is saving time, since OP isn't getting any immediate power boost, they're just using the necramech as a step for New War.

 

^{PS: Sorry for all the people I had to quote because of this one person who refuses to understand}