Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: System Changes and General Quality of Life

[KitMeHarder]

9 hours ago, Hexerin said:

I'm wondering how you're seeing that result. I've tried running your example multiple times on my end, and I always get consistent results. Shown here:

... You have 1,200 extra health from a fully stacked Arcane Blessing.

I also don't know why you're focusing so much on the minutia. This is just an example for my point, not my entire point. I.E. The mere level 50 enemy is meant to show the absurdity of the opposing PoV, it's not the upper limit (or even the norm) of the game.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

No Warframe in my arsenal, except for Ivara, is not armor boosted.

And almost every frame of yours also has boosted base shields, correct?

[(XBOX)ForsakenMoon13]

On 2023-09-28 at 4:16 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Most of the changes seem great, but being able to get a riven instead of an Incarnon adapter isn't very spectacular. Like it's technically an improvement, but I'd appreciate a better pool to pull from.

The rivens are meant to be an evergreen reward so that those who have already gotten all the incarnons have usable rewards for continuing to do the content, rather than having two 'dead' slots each week. They're not replacing any adapters, its additional options to choose from.

[Hexerin]

36 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

... You have 1,200 extra health from a fully stacked Arcane Blessing.

I also don't know why you're focusing so much on the minutia. This is just an example for my point, not my entire point. I.E. The mere level 50 enemy is meant to show the absurdity of the opposing PoV, it's not the upper limit (or even the norm) of the game.

And almost every frame of yours also has boosted base shields, correct?

Arcane Blessing doesn't matter.

1,940-1,418=522

You have 740 health, but otherwise identical survivability stats to me. You should also be taking 522 damage from your Toxic Ancient, and thus survive with 218 health. You'd probably still die in a real gameplay scenario of course, because you'd almost assuredly take a second tick of damage before escaping. Still though, I'm confused how you're taking so much more damage than me. You're taking at minimum 42% more damage.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Hexerin

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)ForsakenMoon13 said:

The rivens are meant to be an evergreen reward so that those who have already gotten all the incarnons have usable rewards for continuing to do the content, rather than having two 'dead' slots each week. They're not replacing any adapters, its additional options to choose from

I know. I even acknowledge it as an improvement. But a veiled riven just isn't a very appealing alternative. It's a step up from nothing, but not much.

[(XBOX)ForsakenMoon13]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I know. I even acknowledge it as an improvement. But a veiled riven just isn't a very appealing alternative. It's a step up from nothing, but not much.

There are very few alternatives that are always going to be potentially useful to an endgame player. I don't know exactly what you expect them to replace it with.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

8 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You have 740 health, but otherwise identical survivability stats to me. You should also be taking 522 damage from your Toxic Ancient, and thus survive with 218 health. You'd probably still die in a real gameplay scenario of course, because you'd almost assuredly take a second tick of damage before escaping. Still though, I'm confused how you're taking so much more damage than me. You're taking at minimum 42% more damage.

You're running Unairu, which gives +200 armor.

1 minute ago, (XBOX)ForsakenMoon13 said:

There are very few alternatives that are always going to be potentially useful to an endgame player. I don't know exactly what you expect them to replace it with.

I'll channel @PublikDomain and say Pathos Clamps. Can buy Rivens among other things from Acrithis with them.

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You're running Unairu, which gives +200 armor.

I'll channel @PublikDomain and say Pathos Clamps. Can buy Rivens among other things from Acrithis with them.

Oh right, that'd probably do it. ~1.4x EHP vs ~2.0x EHP (an increase of ~0.6x EHP). I'm too lazy to math that out, but I could see that making the difference.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh, I meant "start recharging". Sorry for typo.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are getting hit constantly (even 1 hp/shield) then shield won't even start recharging. Even you recherge some part of your shield, augur set & co would do it faster (assuming you are using ablities and have energy) and they have other bonuses.

Yes but we're talking about the new foundation of the shield system. Similar to the old system, mods (like the auger set) will assist with reducing/eliminating delay and cause rapid charging. This will not change. 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh, I meant "start recharging". Sorry for typo.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are getting hit constantly (even 1 hp/shield) then shield won't even start recharging. Even you recherge some part of your shield, augur set & co would do it faster (assuming you are using ablities and have energy) and they have other bonuses.

Yes but we're talking about the new foundation of the shield system. Similar to the old system, mods (like the auger set) will assist with reducing/eliminating delay and cause rapid charging. This will not change. 

Yes, they will assist with your shield- and/or shield-gate- builds. If you want just survivality from your builds then it would be fine to add those. Or you are newish player (that don't have augur set and brief respite)

However if you want to use your frame more than just huge bullet sponge then recharge/delay mods are not very useful and they take too much slots. Consider situation like this. You have already at least few Augur mods - those takes slots. You probably have some Adaptation and/or Rolling guard. Maybe some vitality. Augment or 2. Some niche mod. Your build is already packed with lots of mods. Now you need to fit 1-4 more mods. You need more shield so Redirection. Maybe (Prime) Vigor would be fine (max shield gate time of 2.5 + some health). Then you add -delay shield recharge mod(s). You probably need few to do "decent" job. Augur & Brief does this with less restrictions (mods add more bonuses, not related to shield, like +24% duration) and just work in every situation. Sure, you can say that you need energy. Well, we are talking about builds that use ability so they will have some ways to get energy.

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

• •  
• Vigilante Vigor: added -30% Shield Recharge Delay

What about Vigor and Primed Vigor?

[AxilliaPrime]

6 hours ago, (PSN)MJ-Cena7 said:

I know this seems worthless to most 

But isnt lowering the mods max value worsen the lower ranked versions 

I use rank 9 umbra vitality and steel fiber for round numbers and less mod capacity same with r9 primed flow gave my frames even 400 500 600 800 energy 

So my suggestion is simple 

How about we leave armor with its mods the same 

Make vitality and redirection 110%

Change the base values to 

300 > 350 

375 > 450

450 > 550

Etc 

Maxed umbra mods would be 200% instead of 192.5

Primed flow would be could be kept at +180% 

But how about we better adjust the base now 

200 instead of 190 

Or 175 and make primed flow +200%

i am pretty sure the goal is to keep fully ranked mod stats the same or increase them, not cater to people with OCD who need every stat to end in 00

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

And almost every frame of yours also has boosted base shields, correct?

No. Again, it depends on the effective EHP and abilities. My Gara, for example, only has her base shields because of her forth and fifth sources of EHP: her 2 and her 4. My Frost, on the other hand, has max shields that I, on one of my builds, I use for Parasitic Armor...which hugely supports his bubble and provides a huge armor boost.

My usual Mag build consist of the Umbra mods, max redirection, fractal crush, prime vigor, auger reach and primed flow. With that build, I can run into a level 60 gas cloud and survive up to three ticks if I stand in there. I can roll into and out of an SP level 140 toxin ancient but will get one shot if I walk into it. With armor archon shards, that basically adds a tick or two.

All in all, armor changes the dynamics of survivability and should always, IMO, be worked into any build, regardless of frame. 

[Tiltskillet]

36 minutes ago, quxier said:

What about Vigor and Primed Vigor?

Those aren't related to Vigilante Vigor.  Looks like they are getting buffed  though, judging by their proportions to Vitality/Redirection.

• Vigor: +50% Shield Capacity, +50% Health (was +120% each)
• Primed Vigor: +75% Shield Capacity, +75% Health (was +220% each)

Right now Primed Vigor has half the bonus of both Vitality and Redirection, and that's going up to 3/4.

Currently  Banshee gets 740 in the relevant stat if she equips Vitality/Redirection, and 520/520 from just Primed Vigor.    If I'm doing the math right-- 1.75 * her new L30 values --she'll still get 740 from the dedicated mods, and 648/648 just from equipping Primed Vigor.

If that's right, I can't see slotting Redirection or regular Vitality on anybody.   But I can imagine a primed or other version of Redirection coming out soonish though.

[WEEZY.REBORN]

So when a bombard does 1399 damage to my 1400 shields, then a butcher hits me I basically have nothing?

[Tiltskillet]

9 minutes ago, WEEZY.REBORN said:

So when a bombard does 1399 damage to my 1400 shields, then a butcher hits me I basically have nothing?

If it's based on the last damage instance, it's 0.33s invuln, which is the minimum and the same as now.  If it's based on how high your shields got at any point up to the last time they broke, then it's 2.5s, which is the maximum.

Based on just the wording in the explanation and not reading anything into it, it's 0.33s. 

[(PSN)willitical]

On 2023-09-28 at 10:26 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

I double checked my resources and yes, it was in fact a typo! Thank you for the callout. I've updated the post with the correct values:

LAVOS
Health: Base Rank - 340 (from 200) / Max Rank - 740 (from 600)
Shields: Base Rank - 170 (from 100) / Max Rank - 370 (from 300)
Armor: Base Rank - 575 (from 450) / Max Rank - 675 (from 675)
Energy: Base Rank - 0 (from 0) / Max Rank - 0 (from 0)

I could we ever get a way to remap keywords and mice on ps4 the way xbox can, so that i could utilize gear hot keys, tactical menu, and ability menu ? we also have emote hot keys on ps4, but why ? it's not like anyone will ever program those, because we don't have enough buttons. when i was on pc, i had a controller and a keyboard next to me, for activating menus, dropping pizzas, and other things like that. at the very least, they could add other buttons to the ability menu, like switch weapon, reload weapon, and maybe quick progress menu, tactical menu, and maybe gear hot keys. either way please work on this. also the ability to map tap and press and hold functions for each button would help a little bit. but it should be pretty easy to give us the same button mapping system that pc has, because ps4 can utilize other devices, it's the software that doesn't allow it. if we could select a function, than press a button on device, then we could program any device that's connected to the system.

[Cerikus]

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

2 - We are adjusting Warframe Health, Shield, Energy, and Armor values to keep the end result of the revised Mods as close to the original values as possible. 

This is just amazing. I am a huge fan of Pablos attempt to make the game more clear, explicit and readable. Which reminded me that there is one more set of mods that's been bothering me for the longest time. The IPS increase mods. They look like they should work like any other damage increase mod, but they don't.

Simple example: Jagged Edge for melee says +90% Slash, which is the same as let's sy Molten impact, which says +90% Heat. The look like they should do the same, however elemental mods are calulated from the total base damage, while IPS mods are calulated only from the base damage of the type they are.

Ex: You have a weapon with 100 Slash and 200 Puncture.
You add Molten Impact and you have 100 Slash, 200 Puncture and 270 Heat.
You add Jagged Edge and you have 190 Slash and 200 Puncture.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 4 heures, WEEZY.REBORN a dit :

So when a bombard does 1399 damage to my 1400 shields, then a butcher hits me I basically have nothing?

It's hard to say with just the information we've got on the Dev Workshop, but as there is no information about any changes on the mechanics of shield gate, if it is goint to work the same way as it currently works, only activating the gate restarts the count : currently, if you have full shields and you get a hit that removes 50% of it and then another hit that removes the remaining 50%, you'll have 1,33 s of shield gate (full shield gate). The problem is that they said this :

Citation

 

Previously: full Shields upon Shield break offered a 1.3-second window of invulnerability. 

Now, depending on your Modded values, this window could be anywhere from 0.33 seconds (minimum duration) to 2.5 seconds (capped at 1150 Shields). To receive the original 1.3-second Shield Gate, players will now need around 325 Shields upon Shield Break. 

 

And this can be understood in two different ways. My opinion is that the max amount of shields reached after the gate activation is the value that will be taken into consideration for the shield gate duration (NB: this is only my opinion and I can be wrong).

Why I think like this ? Because of this : "Previously: full Shields upon Shield break offered a 1.3-second window of invulnerability" : this is how they describe the current shield gate mechanics, but currently you just need to get full shields after a gate activation to reset sheild gate and get it's full duration, even if a shield break happens when your shields a very low.

Also, if only the last shield value before the shield break was taken into account, this would mean that the shield changes were a big nerf (specially with an increased damage reduction), and I don't think they wanted to nerf anything (specially because of the new Mods granting less shields recharge delay).

I also have a question about Overshields (I don't know if we've got an answer somewhere else : if yes, I'm very interested on it): the Dev Workshop talks about Modded shields, not Overshields. Will Overshields be taken into account for the shield gate duration ?

[AegidiusF]

And what about the warframes with less than 325 base shields ? Building shields will be mandatory to get the current shield gate duration ?

Grendel, Grendel Prime, Limbo, Loki, Loki Prime, Mesa, Mesa Prime, Mirage, Nezha, Nezha Prime, Nova, Octavia, Valkyr, Valkyr Prime, Vauban have less than 325 base sheilds. Are they going to have reduced shield gate duration if we don't build for shields ? Many of these frames do not need shield gate to survive, but losing a slot just to get something that we curretly have is very sad.

[SteveCutler]

Could you please reconsider nerfing the health, armor, and shield mods? If anything, those mods could use a buff, not a nerf.

(And yes, I do correctly understand the changes being made.)

Edited October 2, 2023 by SteveCutler

[S2Weak]

 

How about showing attribute multipliers and just add Mod multipliers and Rank Bonuses to them?

For example:

• Base Health 100
• Health 740%
• Max Health 740

Just like we have Damage and Multishot on Weapon attributes.

 

Then remove Rank Bonuses from Modding UI because they look awful and confusing.

Edited October 2, 2023 by S2Weak

[Damocles]

 I would like to say that the mod stat changes for clarity would introduce a higher difficulty for new players starting out, and also veterans who recently formad their frames. Take for example 100HP to 300HP base from rank 0 to 30, Mods like maxed Vitality total +440% to 740hp in the current system at rank 30, and 540hp at rank 0. The new system aiming to lower the mod's values to match the current rank 30 total of 740hp would equate to roughly somewhere in between +145-150% (Not sure how the image previews can suggest +100% when 2x300=600<740) but strictly speaking if you have a rank 0 warframe in the new system with a maxed out vitality, you'd have ~250hp instead of 540hp. This pretty much mostly hurts new players who are getting less benefits from ranking mods until they max out the warframe's rank first.

[Mazifet]

On 2023-09-28 at 5:50 PM, SDGDen said:

equinox's 3 in night mode can reduce the damage enemies deal, she can also heal in night mode and use her 2 to crowd control. again, her issues are energy use and lack of armor strip. her damage reduction also doesn't work against enemies that are outside of your 3's range so it's ineffective against sniper-type enemies. because of her using a lot of drain abilities, you should look into either generating energy orbs with her or generating health orbs and using equilibrium, that way you can easily keep up your energy. getting equinox to be survivable in day form is.... quite difficult, since ALL of her survivability boosts are tied to night mode. if you don't care about armor strip you could run dispensary with equilibrium to double-dip into both of the orbs dispensary creates but i don't really know which ability you'd remove since you need her 2 for CC, her 3 for DR and her 4 for healing, you could remove her 1 and just only play night mode i guess? and then have a separate build for a day mode nuclear build

already put together a shieldgating build for equinox 

298% strength (umbral intensify, blind rage, growing power, and 2 tauforged shards) gives 74.5 shields per kill

with the new mod she has 74 shields

ez 1.3 second per kill 

 

[(PSN)willitical]

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And what about the warframes with less than 325 base shields ? Building shields will be mandatory to get the current shield gate duration ?

Grendel, Grendel Prime, Limbo, Loki, Loki Prime, Mesa, Mesa Prime, Mirage, Nezha, Nezha Prime, Nova, Octavia, Valkyr, Valkyr Prime, Vauban have less than 325 base sheilds. Are they going to have reduced shield gate duration if we don't build for shields ? Many of these frames do not need shield gate to survive, but losing a slot just to get something that we curretly have is very sad.

I recently watched a video and they said this is why they are introducing the shield gate mod, so that even frames with lo shields, can still get some shield gating. Which i believe would be equivalent to what it was before, at 1.2 seconds.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 8 minutes, (PSN)willitical a dit :

I recently watched a video and they said this is why they are introducing the shield gate mod, so that even frames with lo shields, can still get some shield gating. Which i believe would be equivalent to what it was before, at 1.2 seconds.

Yes, but this is the problem : this mod will be mandatory for some frames.

We'll have to waste a slot with a mandatory Mod that will just grant us an innate mechanic that we used to have for free.

And a mandatory Mod means less modding variety.

Even with a maxed Redirection, Grendel and Grendel Prime won't have enough shields to grant them a full shield gate (1.33s).

Edited October 2, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[AegidiusF]

One more thing : I keep Grendel (75 shields) and Grendel Prime (95 shields)  exemples :

On Archon Hunts, we have something that the Devs Themselves called the "Narmer one shot projectile" (cf. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1330095-echoes-of-veilbreaker-hotfix-3212/ ) : this Narmer energy projectile inflicts high damage and applies a Bleeding proc (and a Radiation proc too). Bleeding proc starts to deal damage after 1s. As Grendel and Grendel Prime will have less than 1s of shield gate, they will be one shot by the "Narmer one-hit projectile", as the shield gate duration won't prevent the first Bleeding proc and Bleeding bypasses armor.

The same will happen on high level missions (I'm specially thinking about the SP Circuit, where the enemy level scales very fast).

Catalyzing shields cannot become a mandatory mod for some frames. That's not good.

The ironic thing is that Grendel Prime will be released at the same update that will nerf his shield gate mechanics.