The Crackhead Pace of Modern Warframe

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Mr.Lube said:

You are completely right. I feel the exact same way, I fear the mob when I say this but I would love a less "meth-head sonic" approach to Warframe movement. Something with a focus on smooth transitions and momentum that could be easily visually understood. Warframe is not fun to watch with all the bouncing around.

It takes some practice, a little restraint, and some respect for the fact that there’s going to be places that are better suited for acrobatics than others, but pretty quickly what we already have can become an extremely fluid navigation system that can be a lot of fun in and of itself just to move around

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, Hrodgrim said:

Moving around at high speeds in this game is extremely unpleasant unless you're in one of the few open world areas. The reason for this is the disconnect between general map design and how locomotion functions. The worst part of this is how you ALWAYS get stuck in level geometry when flinging yourself around at high speeds. Eris, Kuva Fortress, and Europa maps are particularly infuriating. Even on the open maps, you still get stuck on tiny things sticking out of the ground. Try rushing around the plains as Hydroid using your 2nd power, or sliding around at high speeds as Nezha on Deimos. The map design in this game prohibits actually going fast under penalty of getting extremely pissed off from getting stuck every 5 steps.

That really only applies to the now horribly outdated and archaic Infested Ship tileset. All the rest of 'em are mostly completely open hallways and rooms, and thus extremely easy to navigate even while hitting parkour tricks at maximum speed. Although, I suppose if you're the type to run high strength Volt or something, you'll encounter issues. But you bring it on yourself in that case. That's a user error issue, not a level design issue.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Mr.Lube said:

You are completely right. I feel the exact same way, I fear the mob when I say this but I would love a less "meth-head sonic" approach to Warframe movement. Something with a focus on smooth transitions and momentum that could be easily visually understood. Warframe is not fun to watch with all the bouncing around.

With enough practice you may even find that the more-dense and less-streamlined levels can provide more of a playground to move in, with all sorts of pathways opening up and rewarding good control (though with the Corpus chasing efficiency, their levels understandably are more straight corridors, which admittedly can lend itself to alternative playstyle options)

[KitMeHarder]

9 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

I find myself missing those moments to stop and "smell the roses" if I may. Warframe is truly a beautiful game and I find it a shame that so much of it is rushed through at a breakneck speed and intensity as if efficiency rules all.

It is a beautiful game. But I do not need to "smell the roses" during my fiftieth bounty run, nor is sprinting around in basic FPS fashion very fun or empowering.

And the best part is, current Warframe allows you to do both. When I want to take the time or there is a new tile set, I go around and look and explore... on my own time. I do not expect to do this in public squads, and neither should you.

7 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

Warframe is not fun to watch with all the bouncing around.

So since parkour 2.0 was added, you've never enjoyed a WF Youtube video? You've never enjoyed watching someone like Nash Prime do their stylized Profit-Taker kills, all the while they parkour everywhere (part of the appeal)? What you said is massively subjective, but it still doesn't checkout IMO.

Edited December 18, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Hobie-wan]

Don't forget this happens in real life too. You probably barely pay attention to anything on the way to work or school when it's the same path you take at least 5 days a week. Even stuff in your town stops registering too much when you've lived somewhere a while. You notice stuff when you're in a new place or on vacation or if there's something drastically different like some big new construction or an accident on a road you often travel.

[Sojufueled]

6 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'm going to have to agree with you, but it's an unfortunate consequence of many factors that create a vicious loop. Lots of it is the way players play, but then also how DE designs farms. DE designs farms with this breakneck speed in mind, ...  and you see where this is going.

There are some things that could be addressed though, such as Razorwing Blitz. It's basically the Maiming Strike of movement speed. There's no reason it needs to be leagues faster than Volt's Speed or Zephyr's Turbulence. It's kind of silly to have a movement ability be so broken, that you need to limit your power strength to be able to control the damn thing.

I will say I do play this way often, but that's because movement is what really keeps me enjoying this game. There is just nothing like flying through tilesets as Nova with Wormhole. :D

Honestly I wish they would nerf it. I stopped using it because despite wanting the fire rate, I don't want gently tapping w to send me 100m away crashing into a wall so hard I clip through the floor.

[Seele]

I definitely agree with there being a near-toxic culture of efficiency in the game now. Every mission must be done as quickly as (in)humanly possible. Most multiplayer games I play have one or more players spamming thermal sunder and/or Kuva Tonkor/Zarr/Ogris and zipping through as Wukong/Titania/operator slinging at breakneck speed. It's a little disheartening for an old fella like me, who likes to take things a little slower, and who has more fun when everyone has a part to play on the team.

But, nostalgia goggles are a thing. Raw efficiency has been the doctrine of the rewards-oriented since the beginning. At a point the content no longer compels, and players would rather get the rare drop they've been denied dozens of times thus far so they can move on.

I recall when I was new, I spent most multiplayer missions just walking to extraction because everything was already dead - more advanced players who had Sentinels killed everything. Carrier's shotgun was enough to one-shot everything so the players did not do anything but maneuver through the map, and the enemies died automatically.

So while I would also like for everyone to chill out a little bit, I understand why they don't (to a degree) and recognize that it's not exactly new.

[0_The_F00l]

It has gotten worse over time in my opinion , and the funny part is those that are wishing for efficiency are also screwed in the process.

You think DE has not accounted for the tactics that players use ? Of course they have that's why the objectives are 500 click away and the rooms are so convoluted.

Had the pace been more reasonable the amount of time taken would still roughly be the same.

It doesn't matter if you can run twice as fast if you have to run twice as long.

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

This is what I liked with Hydroid with a speed mod load-out. You’d really need to practice some tile-sets on the timing of using Tidal Surge or Undertow and know every little detail to know what you can or can’t surge through or clip on, etc.

Yes, when you got the hang of it, you’d be able to zoom past a lot of things but it felt earned and you appreciate the little details. When they took away Undertow and changed the base speed of Tidal Surge I had to recalibrate myself and practice a ton in all the tile-sets again.

It was and is fun doing that in my opinion, but I suppose other people might find that completely time inefficient or something. All I know is that I love the feeling of earning movement skills while respecting the terrain and stage.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Turritopsis_Dohrnii

[Mr.Lube]

3 hours ago, Seele said:

I definitely agree with there being a near-toxic culture of efficiency in the game now. Every mission must be done as quickly as (in)humanly possible. Most multiplayer games I play have one or more players spamming thermal sunder and/or Kuva Tonkor/Zarr/Ogris and zipping through as Wukong/Titania/operator slinging at breakneck speed. It's a little disheartening for an old fella like me, who likes to take things a little slower, and who has more fun when everyone has a part to play on the team.

But, nostalgia goggles are a thing. Raw efficiency has been the doctrine of the rewards-oriented since the beginning. At a point the content no longer compels, and players would rather get the rare drop they've been denied dozens of times thus far so they can move on.

I recall when I was new, I spent most multiplayer missions just walking to extraction because everything was already dead - more advanced players who had Sentinels killed everything. Carrier's shotgun was enough to one-shot everything so the players did not do anything but maneuver through the map, and the enemies died automatically.

So while I would also like for everyone to chill out a little bit, I understand why they don't (to a degree) and recognize that it's not exactly new.

You and I are very alike in this regard. I'm a big advocate for the co-operative aspects of the game.

[Xzorn]

I'm there with you and I've mentioned it a lot in the past. I liked the more limited Damage 1.0 days with Stamina. That's not to say we needed stamina but the mobility you could get was much less and made things like infested have a lot more effect to inspire fear. Aiming was also a thing since 5 Grineer were more dangerous than 100 now.

Enemy density is something Warframe shared with Path of Exile and all the problems that come with it like energy management or AoE layering.
IN the end I feel DE made the mistakes. They added bullet jumping, enemy density, meta loot frames like Nekros. Players just made use of it.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

17 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

     Perhaps I'm simply being nostalgic, but I have been feeling as if the pace of modern day Warframe to be a bit troubling (not to be dramatic). I find myself missing those moments to stop and "smell the roses" if I may. Warframe is truly a beautiful game and I find it a shame that so much of it is rushed through at a breakneck speed and intensity as if efficiency rules all.

I'm genuinely curious if anyone else feels as I do; this is not intended to stir up S#&$. Please leave your thoughts below!

🙂💗

I kinda understand that. I remember starting the game in 2020 and the coolest thing ever was watching a video on doing Lua Spy and being able to do it from start to finish without any mistakes. 

 

Oh yeah back then I also thought Limbo was the coolest frame ever because he could just ignore damage and run through lasers (said video was by iflynn and he was basically saying how good Limbo was, which started a phase that ended up with me using a Limbo Prime in New War).

Edited December 18, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[DrBorris]

I find it interesting when posts like this don't take a critical look at the content we've been getting in the context of the complaint.

Every update that has come out since The New War (everything in the Reb/Pablo era) has had a much higher emphasis on slowing down. Kahl missions, besides literally slowing us down, have sub objectives and challenges that ask you to look around. Angels of the Zariman had Voidplumes, the most direct way to get players to slow down. Voidplumes weren't just arbitrarily tacked on to traditional level design, the Zariman is incredibly dense with secrets and exploration. The new mission types have a common thread of being tightly connected to the game's movement system. Void Flood being a literal parkour challenge, Cascade having you run around to manage multiple points, and Armageddon has a periodic speed run tied in. 

Lua's Prey and Citrine's Last Wish were smaller updates, but even then the variant missions these introduced added more reason to smell the roses. Conjunction Survival is quite basic with the roaming buff zone, and is often ignored, but it does move the needle ever so slightly towards more level awareness. Mirror Defense fully embraces the game's movement system in a way that isn't just "go fast." It takes a lot from Void Flood, but keeps the importance of combat. To be the most successful in Tycho mirror defense you have to have a deep understanding of each tile's flow. Where Defense let you remain idle and content standing next to the objective, Mirror Defense asks you to explore your surroundings. 

And now we have Albrecht's Laboratories. I don't think anything here is novel as compared to the Zariman, it is essentially a doubling-down on everything the Zariman did, but that's not a bad thing. As a baseline we have Voca to be the reward for exploration, but that's not the extent as the new mission types all use the same tricks as the Zariman.

 

So basically... I find it odd to criticize the "crackhead pace" of the game without acknowledging the ways the page has been significantly altered in the last few content releases. Even if it isn't to the standard you personally want, you can't deny the shift. It would help in understanding your perspective to know how the changes haven't satisfied you.

 

I do also think the outlook some have of "the game is too fast" is a bit short-sighted. Rather than look for how to work with the strengths of the game, it is an outlook of working against aspects of the game. Just because a thing is causing perceived problems, that doesn't mean the thing inherently is problematic. Something something don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This is also a mindset I see when it comes to discussions on damage, but let's not go there. 

 

Edit: If I had to summarize DE's recent design philosophy with mission design, I'd say it is a great example of "why not both?" Rather than condemn the game as "too fast" or "too slow" DE has tried to give every new mission type something that asks us to do both. Leverage all the strengths of the game rather than pigeonholed the game into a single thing. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by DrBorris

[ReddyDisco]

There's only so many times you 'stop and smell the roses' in a tileset you have to repeatedly come to for eternity. 

[SneakyErvin]

With new content I tend to take it slower when I pass through the tiles, more so now with WitW where there are also pick ups to find.

I mean the only thing I've actually ran into recently where I've thought "can you please tone it down a notch or two, or even ten" is Alchemy. #*!%ing element drops everywhere and then some, along with mobs ontop of mobs ontop of the #*!%ing mixer I'm supposed to throw the elements into or ontop of the elements I need to pick up. No time to appreciate the game mode really since its just bling-bling, scrappy mechs and living sand bags all over the screen along with numbers.

Flustercuck to say the least.

[Mr.Lube]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I'm there with you and I've mentioned it a lot in the past. I liked the more limited Damage 1.0 days with Stamina. That's not to say we needed stamina but the mobility you could get was much less and made things like infested have a lot more effect to inspire fear. Aiming was also a thing since 5 Grineer were more dangerous than 100 now.

Enemy density is something Warframe shared with Path of Exile and all the problems that come with it like energy management or AoE layering.
IN the end I feel DE made the mistakes. They added bullet jumping, enemy density, meta loot frames like Nekros. Players just made use of it.

Yes! Exactly my friend. Unlimited power on the players behalf sounds like fun, but put into practice it makes gameplay somewhat uninteresting. The restricted movement of the early days made you feel grounded and more closely entrenched in the chaotic combat.

Very good point 👍.

[Mr.Lube]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

-snip-

Great point here my friend. These new game modes playing on the exploration and parkour aspects of the game is wonderful and I hope they can go back and sprinkle some of that energy on the older parts of the game.

My main concern about the "crackhead pace" is not a fault of the community, but of the repetitious nature of the game and the way players have adapted to such. Perhaps constant repetition should be replaced with longer form mission types?

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

With new content I tend to take it slower when I pass through the tiles, more so now with WitW where there are also pick ups to find.

I mean the only thing I've actually ran into recently where I've thought "can you please tone it down a notch or two, or even ten" is Alchemy. #*!%ing element drops everywhere and then some, along with mobs ontop of mobs ontop of the #*!%ing mixer I'm supposed to throw the elements into or ontop of the elements I need to pick up. No time to appreciate the game mode really since its just bling-bling, scrappy mechs and living sand bags all over the screen along with numbers.

Flustercuck to say the least.

At times a cluster#*!% for sure, but there is a time and place for it. As long as you are aware that you are entering the cluster#*!%; only then will you be comfortable accepting it.

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

There's only so many times you 'stop and smell the roses' in a tileset you have to repeatedly come to for eternity. 

Yes the endless repetition really gets to ya. Perhaps a less repetitious manner of farming is in order.?

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

Yes the endless repetition really gets to ya. Perhaps a less repetitious manner of farming is in order.?

The game knows we’re doing things on repeat, where the variety of play comes from combining what we earn and where we can take it in various ways to keep the gameplay fresh; is one of the reasons I found chasing efficiency to be so detrimental to the fun, because I was stuck doing things in exactly the same way multiple times in a row, too afraid to change anything for fear of being less efficient

I do kind of wonder what you have in mind…? Even the most scripted mission would get repeated

edit: 🤔 I wouldn’t mind something like Destiny Strikes; combined with Warframe options I’d be a lot more willing to keep doing them on repeat than I was when Destiny kept outleveling me from the strikes and they became boringly tedious

Edited December 18, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

If you can play for a couple years to the point where you have so much stuff you don't need anything, then you can relax more. 

We all rushed the game when we started but after you get some daily setups taken care of it becomes easier to grind simply for fun instead of "omg I need everything so I'm like everyone else."

[ShogunGunshow]

On 2023-12-17 at 1:03 PM, Zahnny said:

Always felt like Titania had some sort of selective favouritism.

Titania can use any subsume while in Razorwing Blitz along with some of the most flexible movement in the game outside of Warframe parkour.

Meanwhile, Yareli is rather jank on Merulina and can't activate subsumes while on it nor can you mod Merulina, and Hildryn...just...Everything about Hildryn's "flight"

Yareli can't use Helminth abilities because she mounts a k-drive, and apparently whoever designed k-drives didn't realize that they'd have to account for abilities other than Yareli's being able to be cast on it.

Why this is the case I don't know, since the Helminth subsume stuff was added in 2020 and Yareli was 2021. But presumably it has to be a lot of coding work to fix - maybe even a complete rewrite of Merulina specifically - since DE confirmed just straight up refuses to fix it. 

[Vitrica_Edge]

I completely agrees with you, and I feel the reason is behind the current trend in the gaming industry, which is basically getting closer and closer to mobile games, like you know things like Candy Crush, or more extremely, the casino-type games. These games appeals to the most primal part of our brain: winning the lottery, finding a rare gem randomly on the ground etc., basically getting something good by doing nothing, even if you already did that same thing for 50 times before without getting anything. Many research showed that "reward after random intervals" is the strongest way to reinforce a behaviour during training.

However, Warframe also boast some of the best visual and art designs, as well as world building. So it also appeals to our desire for beauty and creativity as well, and attracts people who likes games with rich stories and beautiful sceneries like Baldur's gate, old Bioware RPGs etc. Essentially, there are many different types of Warframe players, and although we all play the exact same game, if you look at what we do in a game session you could totally think we play completely different games. One person may run 1 minute Void capture for 50 times, crack the relics he got in a Void capture fissure and promptly sell those prime parts he got, buy a riven then log off. Another person can spend 20 minutes looking for secrets and details in the new tileset, getting some inspiration and proceeds to create some super creative dojo decorations for the next 3 hours. Someone else might spend 2 hours soloing the secret hard mode boss with an MK-1 Braton and normal Excalibur.

 

Suffice to say Warframe is trying to get the best of both worlds, but it is indeed one of the closest game to actually getting there.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Vitrica_Edge

[Mr.Lube]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The game knows we’re doing things on repeat, where the variety of play comes from combining what we earn and where we can take it in various ways to keep the gameplay fresh; is one of the reasons I found chasing efficiency to be so detrimental to the fun, because I was stuck doing things in exactly the same way multiple times in a row, too afraid to change anything for fear of being less efficient

Perfectly said, I'm sure many players experience this same feeling.

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I do kind of wonder what you have in mind…? Even the most scripted mission would get repeated

Well it's not exactly something different, but more of a readjustment of the loop. I think the amount of loading screens you encounter really changes the perception of how grindy something is. 

What if we simply just spent more time in each mission, with the rewards just scaled up to match the time played?

For Example: 3 regular speedy capture missions = 1 longer slower paced capture mission, with rewards matching of course, only difference is less loading screens.

 

Side Note*: i've noticed time fly by during endless mission modes like survival where the 1 hour mark takes me by surprise.

[Mr.Lube]

20 minutes ago, Vitrica_Edge said:

I completely agrees with you, and I feel the reason is behind the current trend in the gaming industry, which is basically getting closer and closer to mobile games, like you know things like Candy Crush, or more extremely, the casino-type games. These games appeals to the most primal part of our brain: winning the lottery, finding a rare gem randomly on the ground etc., basically getting something good by doing nothing, even if you already did that same thing for 50 times before without getting anything. Many research showed that "reward after random intervals" is the strongest way to reinforce a behaviour during training.

However, Warframe also boast some of the best visual and art designs, as well as world building. So it also appeals to our desire for beauty and creativity as well, and attracts people who likes games with rich stories and beautiful sceneries like Baldur's gate, old Bioware RPGs etc. Essentially, there are many different types of Warframe players, and although we all play the exact same game, if you look at what we do in a game session you could totally think we play completely different games. One person may run 1 minute Void capture for 50 times, crack the relics he got in a Void capture fissure and promptly sell those prime parts he got, buy a riven then log off. Another person can spend 20 minutes looking for secrets and details in the new tileset, getting some inspiration and proceeds to create some super creative dojo decorations for the next 3 hours. Someone else might spend 2 hours soloing the secret hard mode boss with an MK-1 Braton and normal Excalibur.

 

Suffice to say Warframe is trying to get the best of both worlds, but it is indeed one of the closest game to actually getting there.

Wow what a beautiful comment, thank you. You are very spot on, perhaps the key is to find like minded players.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, Mr.Lube said:

Well it's not exactly something different, but more of a readjustment of the loop. I think the amount of loading screens you encounter really changes the perception of how grindy something is. 

What if we simply just spent more time in each mission, with the rewards just scaled up to match the time played?

For Example: 3 regular speedy capture missions = 1 longer slower paced capture mission, with rewards matching of course, only difference is less loading screens.

 

Side Note*: i've noticed time fly by during endless mission modes like survival where the 1 hour mark takes me by surprise.

Capture is one of the missions where I wouldn’t mind some additional complexity, but there’s tons of things already that incentivise slowing down; fighting and killing enemies takes time (of varying amounts depending on how good or bad a particular encounter goes; I’ve spent 30+ minutes in several Exterminates and recently a Spy just fighting my way through) and rewards things like Affinity and resources that can be utilised elsewhere, poking around can provide surprise rewards of tokens or scannables, Nightwave can incentivise things like searching for caches.

Honestly I only understand the loading screens thing because of how I used to play, where anything between me and my reward was a nuisance. When I started slowing down, a lot of systems sort of fell into place and loading screens became mere loading screens that slowed me down from getting into the missions that I wanted to play around in.

You might be surprised at how quickly the game inundates you with new things and perpetually rewards while playing around with the stuff you’ve already got regardless of efficiency; there’s a few standouts as taking a bit, but most of the game has a lot of intertwining of motivation of play/reward and quietly keeps giving more just from play