Hot take: We need more stat sticks/psuedo exalted weapons

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

I feel like everytime I see people talking about a game mechanic they want removed, one of the most common are stat sticks for psuedo exalted weapons, those being the first ability of Atlas, Excal, Gara, and Khora. 
 

Honestly, as someone who has for the last few months fallen in love with making excals slash dash a damage monster, I think we need more. 
 

Not only have psuedo exalted weapons become more powerful with incarnons, but the new melee arcanes have further given them a lot of opportunities. Id go so far as to say in many cases the psuedo exalted weapons are equal or better then most standard exalted weapons. 
 

So now, we need more psuedos, or ways to make psuedos. My first choice?

 

Give mach rush a way to scale damage based on melee mods. Make it an augment, and finally let me run through every grineer A-train style!

[Xzorn]

They could. I dunno. Just fix them?

When there was a combo Multiplier they worked fine. Slash Dash in particular hit like a truck. At the time everyone was using Excal as a turret over melee so I very much enjoyed giving him combo timer and letting those 600k Slash Dash hits rip. IMO a good start would be to fix the combo meter timer. It's a needless mod slot taken up.

Just set it to 10s base and have it decay instead of vanish.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I agree, I love Stat sticks. 

Another example of how average players ruin games because "I can't do what the YouTube guy does so get rid of it."

It's not that hard to pick a high dispo weapon and roll some high stats.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

16 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

They could. I dunno. Just fix them?

When there was a combo Multiplier they worked fine. Slash Dash in particular hit like a truck. At the time everyone was using Excal as a turret over melee so I very much enjoyed giving him combo timer and letting those 600k Slash Dash hits rip. IMO a good start would be to fix the combo meter timer. It's a needless mod slot taken up.

Just set it to 10s base and have it decay instead of vanish.

Remember back in the day when wukongs passive was *+2 seconds to combo duration*

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I agree, I love Stat sticks. 

Another example of how average players ruin games because "I can't do what the YouTube guy does so get rid of it."

It's not that hard to pick a high dispo weapon and roll some high stats.

Not at all. My friend has been making gara a slash proccing monster while Ive been making excal an invincible dashing beast. Its so fun

[Aruquae]

I would like if they made them exalted, then reworked exalted weapons entirely so they can compete with pseudo exalted. Let’s me use my “trash” melee along with a well built exalted. 
Basically you’ll still have your stat stick, but in the actual weapon. It can work, but exalted weapons need an overhaul first. 

[Skoomaseller]

make aquablades a pseudo exalted melee DE you cowards

[trst]

Or let's just not? The requirement of sacking an entire weapon slot just to make an ability usable is bad and shouldn't be used more.

That said there is a compromise DE could use that'd even make the current frames more interesting: give them a passive like Garuda's. Basically when they have no melee weapon equipped they get their own innate melee weapon then make only mods on that apply to their ability.

Khora gets the Whip players wanted, Atlas gets to punch more things, etc.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Personally, I'm not a fan of needing a separate weapon to make a frame work.  The Circuit has really shined a light on this problem.

I also think it's unfortunate that boosting a pseudo-exalted ability generally means giving the corresponding actual weapon a garbage build.

So because of that, I think it would be far better if pseudo-exalted abilities just got their own ability to be modded like actual Exalted Weapons, and stat sticks become a thing of the past.

Edited January 3 by (PSN)Unstar
clearer wording

[Agall]

1 hour ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Honestly, as someone who has for the last few months fallen in love with making excals slash dash a damage monster, I think we need more. 

I have a thread that suggests making Radial Javelin a pseudo-exalted with comparable damage to Slash Dash. Would really seal the gameplay fantasy of a swordsman if Radial Javelin was useful again.

 

 

Edited January 3 by Agall

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I agree, I love Stat sticks. 

Another example of how average players ruin games because "I can't do what the YouTube guy does so get rid of it."

Why not just be in favor of a system where you mod the ability weapon itself? I do not mind the power offered by the way it currently works, but it does bother me that you need to go out of your way to ruin your melee build in order for that ability to be maximized. It used to be the same way for Mesa before proper exalted weapon modding was added.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's not that hard to pick a high dispo weapon and roll some high stats.

It's also not hard to read the weapon name on the Riven Mod and realize it should only apply to that one weapon.

Edited January 3 by Voltage

[Hexerin]

34 minutes ago, trst said:

Or let's just not? The requirement of sacking an entire weapon slot just to make an ability usable is bad and shouldn't be used more.

This is the only correct answer to this thread's horrid nonsense.

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

This is the only correct answer to this thread's horrid nonsense.

Yeah, I really don't understand the Stat Stick crowd. It's not like the solution players ask for would make them un-moddable. Sure, you lose a little powercreep, but who cares. The enemies still die and we still get more ridiculous upgrades anyway.

[Famecans]

On 2024-01-03 at 4:36 PM, Hexerin said:

On 2024-01-03 at 4:01 PM, trst said:

Or let's just not? The requirement of sacking an entire weapon slot just to make an ability usable is bad and shouldn't be used more.

This is the only correct answer to this thread's horrid nonsense.

hahaha I'm laughing at the criticism, I'm more ambitious, I would love for all exalted skills to have two execution states:

A - increase damage for all common equipped weapons of any class but it is impossible to summon exalted weapons.
B - summons the exalted weapon transforming the common weapon into an enhancement modifier but only works with specific weapons.

So to activate mode B and summon exalted weapons/equipment the player must equip a weapon/equipment of the same class, for example the warframes below can only summon exalted when equipping only the respective classes of weapons/equipment:

Khora = Whips and Kavats;
Atlas = Knuckledusters;
Table = Dual Pistols;
Excalibur = Swords;
Baruuk = Sparrings;
Ivara = Bows;
Sevagoth / Valkyr / Garuda = Claws;
Titania = Dual pistols and heavy blades;
Wukong = Staves;
Ash = Daggers;
Gara = Sword and Shield;
Iarely = Kdrives;
Hildryn = Staticor and Similar (ok we dont have similars, staticor is unique of same class)

 

edit:

Kullervo = Daggers. I'm sorry, I almost forgot about this guy

Edited January 4 by Famecans

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I think you are thinking in too small of a scale. Why not make it so that your Rivens across your total weapon arsenal, have stats which influence and determine the strength scaling of your roaming Orbiter Decorations? Meaning you will need a negative attack speed Riven for the Amphis so your Domestik Drone doesn't murder you the next time you try to craft Forma at the Foundry? Stack stick pseudo exalted weapons is 2023 terminology, its 2024 now, we on stat stick nemesis orbiter decoration mode! 

[Packetdancer]

4 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

make aquablades a pseudo exalted melee DE you cowards

*happy Yareli noises*

[Packetdancer]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

So because of that, I think it would be far better if pseudo-exalted abilities just got their own ability to be modded like actual Exalted Weapons, and stat sticks become a thing of the past.

All joking aside, I have mixed feelings. I like that you can get some variety and depth in the build system by virtue of combining different melee weapons with pseudo-exalted weaponry; it feels like the bones of a good idea there.

I just think there's maybe not enough meat on those bones to label this implementation as a great one.

[(PSN)Unstar]

11 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

All joking aside, I have mixed feelings. I like that you can get some variety and depth in the build system by virtue of combining different melee weapons with pseudo-exalted weaponry; it feels like the bones of a good idea there.

I just think there's maybe not enough meat on those bones to label this implementation as a great one.

I agree that the bones are there, and DE has shown us the meat in some of their other systems.  There are numerous relationships you can have where equipment in one slot can affect equipment in another.  For example, Primary Dexterity gives a melee combo timer buff to your melee weapon while making your melee kills buff your Primary attack.  I think that's cool!  Similarly, Cascadia Flare makes it so that anything in your loadout — whether it's a companion, your Warframe, or your weapons — can buff your Secondary by generating heat procs.  It's neat!

I think the meaningful difference between the examples I list above and "the stat stick experience" is that none of the above require trashing part of your loadout to benefit another part; rather, they're all building on each other and simply providing different gameplay-based routes to gain more power.  Because you could simply use Primary Deadhead and focus on headshots to get that damage bonus, but it's an interesting option to be able to generate that same boost by getting melee kills.  Similarly, there are plenty of sources of Heat procs to use for Cascadia Flare that are capitalizing off of something you already want to do (personally, I prefer Verglas); and if you don't want to rely on Heat procs, cool: there plenty of other Arcanes to choose from, each with their own gameplay expectations and benefits!

Primary Dexterity works great for me because it gets boosted by melee kills, which is something the game already incentivizes and that I like doing.  But in regard to stat sticks, there is no innate benefit to making a bad build for my melee weapon, nor is there any fun gameplay I get to do by having a bad melee weapon.  The design of stat sticks encourages players to limit the fundamental tools they have access to in missions, and that hinders fun, which is bad for players and bad for the game.

As Pablo regularly reminds me, players will optimize the fun out of a game.  Thus, a good design doesn't reward players for mitigating their own potential for fun.  Melee weapons are in the game for a reason: because melee is fun.  Thus, any design that discourages the use of that feature should be under high scrutiny.  It's certainly a bit rambling, but this collection of words is my scrutiny. ^^

[Packetdancer]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

As Pablo regularly reminds me, players will optimize the fun out of a game.

I have said this many times, in relation to many games.

Though I do feel like it's something of an oversimplification; for some players, hyper-optimizing how quickly you can get through content is their fun. The issue is often that then other people feel pressured to perform to the same level, and that leads to either friction or people who get bored/can't see the fun in it.

[ReddyDisco]

9 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

make aquablades a pseudo exalted melee DE you cowards

Guess your hopes will be dashed 

[PollexMessier]

The reason everyone hates the system is because they want their mele to actually be a functional weapon, and have a functioning ability at the same time.

It's infuriating that you can only have one or the other with this pseudo exalted bs. Not to mention the issues with the game not telling you what mods actually affect the ability, and different abilities having different sets of mods that affect them so it's just completely inconsistent.

It basically renders these abilities completely unusable to anyone that likes using their mele weapons at all.

And the fact the rivens have any affect on them is just assanine.

There's a reason normal exalted weapons were changed to not be like this. It's bad.

[FulfillMyWill]

11 часов назад, (PSN)CommanderC2121 сказал:

Not only have psuedo exalted weapons become more powerful with incarnons, but the new melee arcanes have further given them a lot of opportunities. Id go so far as to say in many cases the psuedo exalted weapons are equal or better then most standard exalted weapons. 

And that's the problem. Why some (pseudo-exalted) abilities get to benefit from Rivens, Arcanes, Augments, Incarnons and some (exalted) - don't?

[xXtiggyXx]

you guys know i deal more dmg with my 1(slash dash)  as excalibur than my 4(exalted blade ) how exactly is this balanced? even if i add in chromatic blade wich i quite like but is underperforming . why cant i use arcanes , rivens on exalted when i can use them on slash dash the inferior ability? makes no sense

Edited January 4 by xXtiggyXx

[0_The_F00l]

I personally hate stat sticks as a concept and will not miss them if they are removed , I would much rather have a seperate modding for these weapons.

[Aruquae]

17 hours ago, trst said:

Or let's just not? The requirement of sacking an entire weapon slot just to make an ability usable is bad and shouldn't be used more.

That said there is a compromise DE could use that'd even make the current frames more interesting: give them a passive like Garuda's. Basically when they have no melee weapon equipped they get their own innate melee weapon then make only mods on that apply to their ability.

Khora gets the Whip players wanted, Atlas gets to punch more things, etc.

Be careful what you wish for, they might get terrible bugs and restrictions…

An example is they don’t count as true melee, even if they’re taking up the melee slot and not benefitting from strength mods. Another example is when they just decide to not equip when loading into a mission. The amount of times I load into Deimos with Garuda and find her claws just missing is… sad.

[(PSN)Unstar]

14 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

I have said this many times, in relation to many games.

Though I do feel like it's something of an oversimplification; for some players, hyper-optimizing how quickly you can get through content is their fun. The issue is often that then other people feel pressured to perform to the same level, and that leads to either friction or people who get bored/can't see the fun in it.

Oh, to be clear, it's not in any way that optimization is bad!  Rather, as a designer, you just want all of your various sources of fun (among them the potential for optimization) to not be in conflict with each other*. ^^

*unless the design of the system is to intentionally create conflict for the player, but I'd be really surprised to hear that was the intent in this case

Edited January 4 by (PSN)Unstar