Is Blast destined to be the worst element?

[UnstarPrime]

Me in this thread: "In theory Blast can be useful."

Actual quote from Pablo on stream: "Blast is useless."

XD

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

Something has to be the worst. Might as well be blast

[AuroraSonicBoom]

I just hope that it will actually ragdoll enemies again in some way. Yeah, yeah, people complain about not being able to hit enemies, but when the ragdolling got removed except for some special edge cases like the Sonicor, a bit of fun died for me as well. Maybe they found a way to both make it more useful and bring back the visual joy of seeing bodies flop around. 

[UnstarPrime]

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

I just hope that it will actually ragdoll enemies again in some way. Yeah, yeah, people complain about not being able to hit enemies, but when the ragdolling got removed except for some special edge cases like the Sonicor, a bit of fun died for me as well. Maybe they found a way to both make it more useful and bring back the visual joy of seeing bodies flop around. 

Initially I was thinking there'd be no way they'd add this back, but then I realized that enemies still get ragdolled all the time because after removing the old Blast effect they literally added Lifted and built it in to numerous weapon combos.  So maybe it can make a return?

[Greysmog]

21 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

Initially I was thinking there'd be no way they'd add this back, but then I realized that enemies still get ragdolled all the time because after removing the old Blast effect they literally added Lifted and built it in to numerous weapon combos.  So maybe it can make a return?

If DE wanted to keep ragdolls, they totally could as long as ragdolls actually did something. Have an enemy hit a wall at Mach 3? Well they take a ton of True Damage, but nothing that can kill them outright. You then tie the ragdoll damage to the force inflicted, and the damage decreases the further away an enemy is and the longer it takes for them to hit a surface.

Just make it so it can almost kill an enemy, and don't allow Viral to boost it like it currently does with Frost's Snowglobe. You'd still have to kill them directly, and now weapons that ragdoll have a stronger usage case. Now you keep the disruptive aspect and have less issues with killing things. Snowglobe kind of has this as a mechanic, but it's not properly balanced and could use some fine-tuning.

As for Lifted, just make it freeze an enemy in the air for a very brief period. It really doesn't need the weird physics tied to it when it probably should be acting more like Vauban's Bastille portion of Vortex than Titania's Spellbind. It feels awful on Bonewidow as an example since you just fling enemies out of your range.

Edited April 26 by Greysmog

[ECCHOSIERRA]

7 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm 95% sure it works based on Sim testing. But that points to its main (but not only) problem:  it took ideal testing conditions  and I'm still only 95% certain.  Every other status effect is easy to verify in comparison.  And are visible to anybody paying casual attention in actual missions.

Meanwhile they have zero % accuracy if they're dead. 

 

And even cold or shock or radiation would be better CC. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

it has always struck me as odd how using explosives in this power fantasy game, of all games, is basically a self-nerf; in any other game taking a rocket/grenade launcher exponentially increases your damage output, and is sometimes necessary for larger enemies.. yet here, it's literally the worst thing you can do for your damage, save not attacking at all. 

ultimately though I'm gonna reserve my judgement until we know the specifics of the blast rework; what i will say though is that changes are definitely welcome, and I would like Blast to become a relevant damage type for the first time since.. well, ever I think, lol.

[Tiltskillet]

41 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Meanwhile they have zero % accuracy if they're dead. 

 

Sure, but that's not a problem totally unique to Blast status.

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, Greysmog said:

If DE wanted to keep ragdolls, they totally could as long as ragdolls actually did something. Have an enemy hit a wall at Mach 3? Well they take a ton of True Damage, but nothing that can kill them outright. You then tie the ragdoll damage to the force inflicted, and the damage decreases the further away an enemy is and the longer it takes for them to hit a surface.

Just make it so it can almost kill an enemy, and don't allow Viral to boost it like it currently does with Frost's Snowglobe. You'd still have to kill them directly, and now weapons that ragdoll have a stronger usage case. Now you keep the disruptive aspect and have less issues with killing things. Snowglobe kind of has this as a mechanic, but it's not properly balanced and could use some fine-tuning.

As for Lifted, just make it freeze an enemy in the air for a very brief period. It really doesn't need the weird physics tied to it when it probably should be acting more like Vauban's Bastille portion of Vortex than Titania's Spellbind. It feels awful on Bonewidow as an example since you just fling enemies out of your range.

I thought the same before and I'm glad you mentioned Snowglobe being able to do that, so it's totally possible for them to make it do that. I'm reminded of an old game I used to play call Spacelords/Raiders of the Broken Planet. They had that as a damaging mechanic some characters could do. The Push Effect. Where certain things could launch enemies and if they hit a wall they would take damage. It was extra neat in that game as it was part brawler and you could do finishers akin to the parazon on 'downed' elite enemies and players. You had little interactions where you launched someone into a wall, it would down them, they ricochet towards you and you melee and do the finisher for the kill.

[_Anise_]

in before blast is good now and instead of fix or rework they nerf banshee again lul

[Prof-Dante]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ooh the timing of this topic is very suitable,

I wonder what actual changes will come to blast.

 

6 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

LMFAO They said in the DevStream that there's going to be a Status Effect rework!

EDIT:

AND BLAST IS ON THE BOARD!!

New post: Am I destined to not have 1 million dollars?

[Tuli_Donitsi]

-Accuracy could be nice but I don't see the effect at all. Aren't enemies also more accurate the higher their level is?

I'm not surprised that nobody uses it. It was more effective as CC when it knocked enemies down. Especially infested who barely have heads for headshotting.

Edited April 27 by Tuli_Donitsi

[Lord_Drod]

Blast is destined to get blasty.  So it's probably going to be super blasty. 

[Greysmog]

5 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

I thought the same before and I'm glad you mentioned Snowglobe being able to do that, so it's totally possible for them to make it do that. I'm reminded of an old game I used to play call Spacelords/Raiders of the Broken Planet. They had that as a damaging mechanic some characters could do. The Push Effect. Where certain things could launch enemies and if they hit a wall they would take damage. It was extra neat in that game as it was part brawler and you could do finishers akin to the parazon on 'downed' elite enemies and players. You had little interactions where you launched someone into a wall, it would down them, they ricochet towards you and you melee and do the finisher for the kill.

Yeah you would probably have to adjust ragdolls to be a bit more limited, something like making enemies just fly a shorter distance or make it so they smash their head into the pavement, stuff like that. 

Either way, if I was able to play Rhino or Voidrig and casually just snap a guys spine in half due to their sheer weight and size, I would very much enjoy that. Make some improvements so it's balanced and more consistent, then just call it collision damage, and you're done.

[helioth137]

according to pablo the new blast (getting reworked entirely...) (covered in devstream 179) will be BLASTY, so, inB4MetaOmgEveryoneRunsBlastNowAndI'mHavingABlast

Also, currently, if enemies actually stood up to our endgame builds, blast would have a cold niche, especially combined with things like slow/ shivering contagion + grouping tool, for making enemies do next to no damage, when you cannot CC them with abilities (eximus are still effected by cold afa.i.k)

Edited April 27 by helioth137

[PrideB4TheFall]

As of Friday? Perhaps not. Kinda liked where Pablo was heading with it. Almost like chain reaction damage? Well, if it unfolds that way I'll definitely spend some time with it. 

As a followup to armor adjustments. I'd love to see armor strip actually have a visual que. Like seeing bits of metal fly off the target with some sfx. Kinda like the T2 scene where Arnold shatters the T1000.

[Aruquae]

Would be cool if blast had a tiny CC, such as an enemy stagger
Not sure if it already does, but it would be thematically appropriate 

[quxier]

On 2024-04-26 at 1:16 PM, Zakkhar said:

On 2024-04-26 at 1:07 PM, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Do you use blast on weapons that don't have it innately?

Yes. At least plenty of people did it before this interactionn was somewhat limited, but I am sure still plenty run this setup anyway, because they invested into Shards:

• Regenerate +5 (+7.5) Shields when you kill an enemy with  Blast Damage.
  • Does not apply when Shield Gating occurs; players must wait for shields to recharge for the effect to apply.
  • Currently provides shields on every hit on an enemy with  Blast damage, despite the description of the shard stating "kill".

I guess shield still have regeneration delay?

And does it work if you have at least 1 shield (e.g. via Augur & co mods)?

On 2024-04-26 at 2:49 PM, _Anise_ said:

I am in shock, are the devs really this out of touch? are they serious? you have to kill (see above) 50 enemies... with BLAST the worst damage type in the game to get only 375 shields back? and it does not work if your shields are empty xD who is ever going to build around that?

That's the problem with Shards in general. Shards are:

- To fine tune your build. For example I'm missing 10% strength for 100% armor strip (190% + 10% of shard).

- Pretty good with 1 or 2 shards (maybe not useful with more). For example 2x casting speed shard improve your casting speed "a lot". Or you have 2 Corrosive shard so you can fully armor strip enemies.

- Slap as much as you can (aka 5, and if possible Tau). So 10% strength isn't great. However 50% or 75% is something very useful.

This one falls into 3rd category. So with 5 shards you get 25-37.5 shield per damage/kill. I wish they would stop with 3rd category. Just slap something like 2x-3x more (e.g. 20-30% strength), limit to 2-3 shard per frame.

On 2024-04-26 at 1:14 PM, Venus-Venera said:

The days of “blast” are probably over. I used to camp with it against infested. and that for hours.

... but
... and a big BUT!
I played with Kuva Ogris. and that was before embarrassing ammunition ruination. The weapon didn't do the best damage even back then, but I happily played with it against all factions. even on SP.

I wanted to mention Sonicor but it seems that it was just its effect not Blast shooting enemies to the moon.

On 2024-04-26 at 5:23 PM, Tiltskillet said:

On 2024-04-26 at 12:01 PM, Prof-Dante said:

Blast has a lot of potential, but unfortunately it's stuck with a status debuff, that we don't know if it works or not in this game.

I'm 95% sure it works based on Sim testing. But that points to its main (but not only) problem:  it took ideal testing conditions  and I'm still only 95% certain.  Every other status effect is easy to verify in comparison.  And are visible to anybody paying casual attention in actual missions.

On 2024-04-26 at 7:05 PM, UnstarPrime said:

On 2024-04-26 at 12:01 PM, Prof-Dante said:

What am I supposed to do knowing that 10 procs of blast give enemies 75% accuracy reduction? hurray? am I protected now?

I mean, in theory a 75% accuracy loss for enemies is roughly equivalent to 75% DR.  So what you can do if you know that you've built up those stacks is similar to what you would do if you had instead built your frame with an additional 75% DR.  I wouldn't sneeze at that.

The problem is that 75% is not 75% damage reduction. Xaku/2 can disarm enemies. Does it means it has 100% damage reduction? No. Why? Because it doesn't disarm lots of enemies. Some are invulnerable (e.g. Eximus). Some enemies just doesn't have guns. Maybe it's better than 'disarming Xaku' but I would still not call it 75% damage reduction.

If it somehow makes enemies, I don't know, confuse you and not attack "75% of the time" then I would be "happier".

On 2024-04-26 at 10:11 PM, UnstarPrime said:

Me in this thread: "In theory Blast can be useful."

Actual quote from Pablo on stream: "Blast is useless."

XD

this:

On 2024-04-27 at 4:24 PM, helioth137 said:

according to pablo the new blast (getting reworked entirely...) (covered in devstream 179) will be BLASTY, so, inB4MetaOmgEveryoneRunsBlastNowAndI'mHavingABlast

I miss devstream where they explain more stuff. I've watched last stream and first hour is just "lets bully The STug".

[Trollocaustic]

On 2024-04-26 at 10:06 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I did have a recommendation for blast , which I think can work well in today's environment ,

I had recommended every blast status has a 50% chance to proc any IPS effect and thia chance increases with every stack of blast upto max 80%,

I would name the effect shrapnel.

Without something like this , blast is going to be completely unwanted.

I thought about shrapnel IPS as a concept too considering the effects of a fragmentation grenade in addition to adding temporary status effects like stagger, disarmament or maybe even concussion which would make enemies perform random actions.

[0_The_F00l]

I am curious now,

Blast needs heat and cold (outside of a few weapons and mods that have it innately) 

Will the new blast be good enough to not run heat or cold on your loadouts ?

[Berzerkules]

I miss OG blast when it rag dolled enemies. Something about blast melee knocking everyone on there asses was amusing to me. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Blast is kind of interesting, in the context that of course, this isn't a new observation about it specifically, or generally other elements, in Warframe, let alone others. In that there are often weaker tools or elements that are overlooked usually for stronger, better, more effective tools. Granted in some games, different status effects or elements can be closer in balance to each other, in some games, the gap is larger. Different people can also have different preferences. Like some like to change their weapon load outs and builds, change mods around etc use Faction Mods, but some people would rather have weapons they can just generally use in multiple different situations... Sometimes having clearly strong statuses/elements over weaker statuses/elements is nice, for some, because it can give them one thing to sort of overlook or ignore unless they want to create a more niche build, flex, go against the grain, go off meta etc. 

That and we also know that Blast will be changing in the future. How, why, etc still yet to be answered, but its sort of interesting in other ways. Like... Heat is pretty popular, especially since it doesn't usually interfere with Viral or Corrosive. I personally like Heat, but I also like Cold, and like to find ways to fit it in to different builds. Like there are quite a few situations where you don't really need Viral on every weapon you have. Having Cold and Rad or Cold and Corrosive is fun and effective. Blast is Cold and Heat though... so depending on what it does/how good it is... you may open up scenarios where people need to start squeezing extra elemental mods on builds, and or it needs to compete with other combinations, and or there is quite a big meta shuffle in regards to elements, and general builds. Though could also be super interesting as far as ceratin weapons that may already have innate elements, or can easily fit a few more elements on them, like Nemesis weapons etc. 

Either way I am looking forward to it. I like Heat and Cold so much though, it would have to be pretty good to get me to build for it (though some suggestions on what they could change it to, are pretty interesting and could be compelling). 

[---Matiz753---]

On 2024-04-26 at 1:07 PM, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Do you use blast on weapons that don't have it innately?

depends on gun

[Dairaion]

Hi, I still love Kuva Ogris and Zarr, This is How you fix blast damage.

Blast has 15 stacks, first time blast is proc'd it doubles all incoming damage while the proc is active. each successive proc has a random effect from this list

*Stagger

*Knockdown

*Sleep

*Slash 

*Impact

*Piercing

*Ragdoll

*Disarm

 

By doing this blast makes explosive weapons feel real, hitting a group of enemies causes disarray and makes them vulnerable for follow up attack by more precise weapons.

[Black_Cat_Jinx]

I really don't have time to read the backlog on this but I would like to contribute what seems the most obivious solution, which of course, DE doesn't want to do. 

Solution 1. Blast damage deals true damage, that is direct health damage not modified by armor or shields. 

Why: It's complicated, but in modern warfare the number one injury is soft tissue and brain injury caused by concussive force from explosions or impact trauma. The armor may protect the combatant from shrapnel and burns, but the force of the impact or concussion of the explosion goes through through the armor. So in effect the blast damage should inflict a lower number as damage applied, but it should go directly to health, ignoring armor and shields.

Additional to this. I have long argued that health bars should be displayed in different lines. Health is your base line, then you have a yellow line for armor above the health showing armor degredation, or a blue ine for shield charge. In order to damage armor you have to get through the shield but there should be various things that will apply direct health damage, IE heat should damage health through armor, but not through shields, radiation should probably damage health through shields but not through armor, as gas does, etc. But I guess thats too much work for DE. 

Solution 2: Have blast have a random chance to apply one or multile seondary damage types, specifically burn, impact, slash, or pierce.

Why: See above, no armor is 100% effective at blast resistance, so you will have internal bleeding, shattered armor, burns, armor being dent the heck out of shape from impact, etc....

Anyway just my thoughts.