[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[SharkPot]

Wait The rework was supposed to make him good? ***WAT***

Isn't reworks all about nerfing something but not outright saying it? The only rework I can say wasn't a nerf is Frost.

In that way rework was a success. Why?

Limbo used to be a high priority personnel killer, Now he is just another gimmick about stopping time in rift.

You can't banish another person in other dimension.

You can't even move at full speed, as the rift is linked to roll button and for max movement you need the roll button.

So, the net total I see It as a nerf if anything. Now available with a gimmick, Buy it in the nearest liset store.

[Nez-Kal]

2 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Correction for their "Limbo is useless" statements is "Cataclysm nuking is useless". Because it kinda is after the over-nerf, even with the setup required which I would gladly do if the damage was worth it. Limbo is still as unbalanced and unfriendly as before with god-like control over the battlefield.

Exactly this. But for some reason once a "Press 4 to Win" ability is taken away, folks just throw the entire Warframe away in the "Useless" bin, regardless of their still existing, as you put it, "God-like control over the battlefield".

 

And that's what I'm trying to figure out. How so many people can claim that he as an entire Warframe is not "Useless". It's literally keeping me up at night.

 

(Guess we just have to wait until a TacticalPotato Video goes up and claims "*In Irish Accent* Limbo is still an amazing Warframe without this added on 'nuke' damage." for some of them to shut-up.)

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, Seinerweisen said:

Limbo was never meant to 

Limbo was never meant to be a Nuke. Hes a support type frame not DPS. LimBoom was a mistake that has been fixed. 

If he was meant for support, then why is banish now an AoE that will get enemies with your target, and why does cataclysm scale instead of being an area of energy regen and a place to use stasis without shrinking.

I was hoping DE would make limbo an alternative to trinity, but it looks like trinity is the only real support character. Oberon and Titania are just a joke and octavia is not practical in higher levels aside from stealth buffs.

Edited April 20, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

eammate low on health and about to get rekt? Send em to the Rift, and get them patched up.

People whine about it

 

2 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Defense objective taking damage? Set up Stasis and throw a Cataclysm on that sh*t.

People whine about it

2 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Excavator touching down to dig point? See above.

See above

2 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Wardens closing in on the alarms/teammates on a Rescue? Set up Stasis, Pop a Cataclysm, Rift Surge all nearby enemies, and drop the Cataclysm. (Then apologize for accidentally kicking teammate off control panels)

People whine about it

2 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Is there something I'm missing about him that makes him "Useless" to what seems to be Everyone else on these Forums

 People hate his play style for whatever legit/asinine reason they can come up with, his CC and abilities have always had bonuses + a downside which is what most if not all CC or raw control powers should have.

Limbo is currently the ONLY frame to have a risk/reward - positives and negatives system on their powers and the -community- hates it when they have to choose instead of hitting a button and gaining nothing but benefits.

Limbo takes away the - nothing but benefits- and gives -benefits at the cost of N but X and Y are still able to do damage through Z- and players hate a power that makes them actually not god mode.

 

Then DE comes out with yet another frame what has -Scaling CC/ damage and buffs buffs buffs- and throws the whole philosophy out the window again.

 

He isnt useless to me but the restrictions implemented on him and on others through him only exist because he exists, no other frame does it therefore only limbo is annoying and u friendly to teams. For team play you have to try 2 fold to not step on toes because theyll come screaming on the forums and still be useful with a system no one wants to learn.

DE had something going then screwed it up. 

 

-shrug-

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned.

Please let's keep the conversation tone as respectful as possible. Going berserk due to nerfs is just immature and won't help Warframe's development in any way.

[Fallen_Echo]

24 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Exactly this. But for some reason once a "Press 4 to Win" ability is taken away, folks just throw the entire Warframe away in the "Useless" bin, regardless of their still existing, as you put it, "God-like control over the battlefield".

 

And that's what I'm trying to figure out. How so many people can claim that he as an entire Warframe is not "Useless". It's literally keeping me up at night.

 

(Guess we just have to wait until a TacticalPotato Video goes up and claims "*In Irish Accent* Limbo is still an amazing Warframe without this added on 'nuke' damage." for some of them to shut-up.)

Well his godlike control over the battlefield is nothing but an annoyance.

Other frames cannot connect to enemies on different planes and that is what annoys most people.

Banish makes enemies immune to damage.

Stasis forces you to melee them.

Rift surge doesnt help others if you are in a different plane.

Cataclysm limits others the same way as all of his skills.

I have all the stuff to build him but i literally dont see any place where i can use him other then sortie defenses without annoying people.

[kyori]

1 hour ago, JSharpie said:

I'm sure you could do better.

On Topic: Personally they should have made cataclysm start small and grow over time.

No need to come disturb like you always did to others. I have nothing need to do better. DE needs to do better in creating their frame's power, balancing etc.

Go disturb someone else.

[heisthex]

• Cataclysm now deals different amount of damage over the time it exists: 25% Damage when bubble is full size, 100% at its smallest size.
• Cataclysm damage scaling now uses average Health + Shield instead of total Health + Shield of enemies within.

 

Someone in DE must have have come a plan to change Cataclysm to be more balanced with picking one of the 2 choices.

Instead of picking one, DE went with both.

This is one way ticket of wrong way of "balance". The goal is getting players able to coop with Limbo, not ruin Limbo.

Edited April 20, 2017 by heisthex

[KX297]

3 hours ago, Death_Master_ said:

With limbomb nerfed i would just prefer they roll back all Libmo "rework" changes, at least it would be useful frame for sortie defence. 

Wha... what?

He can currently auto win any non-corpus defense objective mission.

You just put stasis + cataclysm up and reset the times when it goes down. You can make any defense objective 100% invincible to anything that isn't a nullifier.

Why would you want to go pre-rework? He is still currently way better than back then. Though probably more annoying, I'll give you that.

[artemisfortune]

4 minutes ago, kyori said:

No need to come disturb like you always did to others. I have nothing need to do better. DE needs to do better in creating their frame's power, balancing etc.

Go disturb someone else.

Gonna give you a hand here, because you don't seem to be able to handle discussion very well.

Hover over my name, and in the little blurb pop up hit "ignore user". Fixed your problem with me. It won't change how you don't give constructive criticism, but at least you won't be able to see when I call you out on it.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

1 hour ago, Evanescent said:

The problem with cataclysm was not its scaling but its spammability. You could have just made it so that

1) it only dealt the damage it was dealing when it closed naturally, which at the lowest duration takes about 18-20 seconds ish. If needed bump up the duration of cataclysm so that there is a soft cooldown. 

2)It dealt the damage over its maximum range when it closes to avoid the current joke it is now

What, you think it's unspamable now? Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that it is still the case. With Fleeting Expertise and Transient Fortitude (both maxed), you would have about 12.5% Duration, and it would make Cataclysm last barely a couple of second (about 3.75s, unless I made a mistake), wich is easely spamable (Fleeting Expertise also help the spam). 

Haven't tried it yet, and I won't since I don't like playing with Limbo. I didn't even tried the rework pre-"nerf".

[Volinus7]

That moment when you realized the complete ignorance over infinite scaling even it's a feature of the game for a long time. A geyser of infinite hypocrisy and irresponsibility indeed.

 

It's like making a platformer game with 10 stages but only 1 stage finished and tell players "you're not supposed to play unfinished 9 stages". People will try the remaining stages out of curiosity anyway, and in wf case it's just meta cheese spam to reach lvl9999, repeating the same thing over and over for 5-8 hours is just plain boring. Adding lvl9999 selection would make it uber dumb as a proof. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Volinus7
What's the actual "content" and what's a Skinner's box extension...sadly most people can't distinguish them.

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

What, you think it's unspamable now?

Its still spammable but now youd do more damage with a barely modded Ogris by comparison. 

Making it a strong % radius already nerfed it heavily but now it also divides the damage by AVERAGE hp/shields on top of percentiles meaning youll have trouble breaking resource containers.

[DeMonkey]

25 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

What, you think it's unspamable now? Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that it is still the case. With Fleeting Expertise and Transient Fortitude (both maxed), you would have about 12.5% Duration, and it would make Cataclysm last barely a couple of second (about 3.75s, unless I made a mistake), wich is easely spamable (Fleeting Expertise also help the spam). 

Haven't tried it yet, and I won't since I don't like playing with Limbo. I didn't even tried the rework pre-"nerf".

That sort of spam is useless though, so people are highly unlikely to do it.

You'd be doing average health damage to maybe 5 enemies. Banish will do the same thing.

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

So basically automatically apply 3 to the enemies... which would be nice for 4 considering setting up 3 is a pain imo. 

Not really, Rift Surge pulls enemies back into the rift when they leave. The debuff I'm suggesting is simply a 'marker', it doesn't matter whether they leave the rift or stay in for it's full duration, they're marked for Cataclysm damage all the same.

Could be explained quite easily as well, a mini 'child' Cataclysm builds up inside of enemies as they stand inside it and remains with them if they leave the AoE. Upon detonation of the 'parent' Cataclysm all child ones also detonate causing the same damage.

Hell, I'd even suggest a slow for enemies with the marker, I mean having a mini Cataclysm inside you isn't going to tickle ;)

Edited April 20, 2017 by DeMonkey

[Genoscythe]

I agree that the nerf was absolutely devastating, but a simple solution could have been binding the scaling to power STR, before you could just put on a 250% range build and retain the same scaling with enemy stats, I am not against limbo nuking, but with a smaller cataclysm that actually has to be placed tactically instad of instantly covering almost 50 meters, that was just way off.

 

Ways to fix it with the current nerf is increasing the scaling over time (maybe 25% and and additional 50% of damage for every second passed to prevent minimum duration spam). Also average health and shield values, as OP said, make it kinda not scale anymore. DE did a horrible job on this one in my opinion.

[Reifnir]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

 People hate his play style for whatever legit/asinine reason they can come up with, his CC and abilities have always had bonuses + a downside which is what most if not all CC or raw control powers should have.

People have a darned good reason to hate every instance of "risk-reward" mechanics in Warframe, because DE, to put it bluntly, sucks at implementing risk versus reward stuff. Big time. 

Let's take self-damage weapons. They are (supposedly) powerful rocket/grenade launchers with huge self-damage. You risk killing yourself every single time you fire them. Do they reward you properly for this degree of risk? Nope. For the most part, they're not even powerful enough to consider bringing to most Sorties, and even if you Forma the hek out of them, there are still more efficient ways of killing stuff without putting yourself at risk. 

Endless missions. You can take them to the extreme, going for multiple rotation Cs... Except you risk everything and gain nothing (or almost nothing if you're lucky enough to stumble upon an Endless Fissure mission) when compared to reaching the first rotation C and extracting. 

Animal companions that can die permanently... And still lose in usefulness to immortal Sentinels in vast majority of cases.

The entire Riven system - unless you are willing to invest ungodly amounts of time and/or plat into it, it's barely worth the hassle, since your riven/kuva farming efforts may result in your riven mod ending up much worse than it originally was. 

TL;DR: "Risk" made by DE is not worth it, plain and simple. Not to mention, Warframe is not some Rainbow-6 in space, it's Diablo in space where being OP is half the fun. 

 

 

As for Limbo... Making Rescue/Sortie Defense targets invulnerable aside, his entire kit is just annoying, gimmicky pile of garbage. Don't even get me started on how wonderful it is to lose a chunk of parkour because Limbo can't dodge-roll anymore. Or how his 3 essentially, does NOTHING useful. Or how you have to be on the same plane for Banish to work. Limbo used to be an extremely specialized support frame. Then they turned him into a nuker. And now they made him into something borderline useless without addressing any of the issues that made him unwanted and annoying in the first place.

Good job, I say! /sarcasm

[Blade_Wolf_16]

1 hour ago, kyori said:

I'm not bashing the dev... but their action really shows that they are bad at creating the frame's power. As seen they need to rework and nerf etc.

Reworks, Nerfs and Buffs are completely normal and necessary to maintain the balance. Yes it hurts sometimes, but look at Mag: No more Shield Polarize spam that only work against Corpus and Corrupted, now she has a very usefull and strong 2 and an armor debuff ability. I loved Mag and at first I hated the rework and stopped playing her, but one day I decided to try a Magnetize build and now she's back in my top 3 fav with Oberon and Titania. 

It almost ook like the first lines of "I will survive" when I think about it. Pretty funny tho ^^'.

[-CM-NineFingers]

4 hours ago, Shadu said:

They didn't get the rework "just about right", I've seen the problem with the rework for quite a while already due to not liking the spam 4 build and thus running into the problems with the rework early on. Now that the damage is nerfed and people look at other possibilities of the abilities more people tend to see the problems and as such we get to see this.

Cataclysm had to be nerfed.. it just had to it was too strong, but nerfing the damage wasn't the right way according to me, instead they could have made it so you don't get energy back for collapsing and thus you wouldn't be able to spam it as such. Now the skill is worse than the pre-rework cataclysm in the damage area and we got a confirmation that the shrinking won't be removed.

Banish is still as horrible as it has been since the rework.

Stasis is still as horrible of an ability in a co-op setting with randoms in the squad.

Rift Surge is still as useless as it has been apart from the augment.

They missed a whole lot with the rework and what needed to be done, but they would only need some minor tweaking to make it work properly and right I think.. buuuut they already moved on to Oberon so good luck getting those tweaks between now and a few years.

Rift surge is actually pretty useful if a Limbo doesn't want to interfere with the team, you can banish a group of enemies, surge them, and when they're killed other enemies enter the rift automatically, it's a great way of not having to leave the rift to deal damage and be useful.

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Snakeboy1990 said:

I'm liking the rework. Only thing I don't like is banish. It's just too risky to use now. Limbo is too squishy to be walking up to enemies just to banish them. Sticking to my mini cataclysm build to avoid being an annoyance to teammates.

That's basically what I do. But remember that surged enemies in the rift will banish nearby enemies when they are killed, you don't need to leave the rift that much. I' on a max duration, 79% range build and it works great, try it.

[kyori]

20 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Reworks, Nerfs and Buffs are completely normal and necessary to maintain the balance. Yes it hurts sometimes, but look at Mag: No more Shield Polarize spam that only work against Corpus and Corrupted, now she has a very usefull and strong 2 and an armor debuff ability. I loved Mag and at first I hated the rework and stopped playing her, but one day I decided to try a Magnetize build and now she's back in my top 3 fav with Oberon and Titania. 

It almost ook like the first lines of "I will survive" when I think about it. Pretty funny tho ^^'.

Actually all the spam is still possible in low level missions.

Yes, now Limbo's main power has shifted back to stasis instead of limbomb which the spammers abused.

[PrVonTuckIII]

5 hours ago, SeaUrchins said:

Gotta love reading "the frame that was given infinite scaling damage dealing ability was never meant to be a nuke" comments, makes me giggle.

By the same flawed logic Frost was never meant for defense lmao

DE said explicitly that they didn't want Limbo to be a nuke. The over-viability of Cataclysm was a mistake, and went against that philosophy. Therefore, it got nerfed, and Cataclysm will be used for what it was intended: Taking large groups into the Rift, so they can be put into Stasis and killed.

1 hour ago, SharkPot said:

Snip

Really? Limbo is signficantly better than he was before. Rift-transitions require no energy now (so free energy/invincibility right there), Banish can affect multiple targets now, Stasis in combination with Cataclysm is godly CC, and Rift Surge is great for buffing your damage output.

I see no nerfs here.

[Evanescent]

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

What, you think it's unspamable now? Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that it is still the case. With Fleeting Expertise and Transient Fortitude (both maxed), you would have about 12.5% Duration, and it would make Cataclysm last barely a couple of second (about 3.75s, unless I made a mistake), wich is easely spamable (Fleeting Expertise also help the spam). 

Haven't tried it yet, and I won't since I don't like playing with Limbo. I didn't even tried the rework pre-"nerf".

Not so much as it isn't worth spamming now. That's how I meant it, haha.

[Chewarette]

4 hours ago, JohnKable said:

This nerf is bad. Not saying nuker limbo had to stay, but it could be tweaked so it couldnt spam it the same way or just to deal less-but still scaling damage.  It would have been easy to make it in a way that just halvens enemies health or something like that.
I mean novas MP literally halvens all enemies health (double damage) while slowing them to death with a single button press.

You can't compare like that.

A spell that deals 50% of enemies max HP will mean you just have to use it twice to kill enemies => moar spam. If you meant that Cataclysm could still deal 50% of current enemies HP, then that's approximately the same when you arrive at a high-enough level. You'd just spam your Cataclysm enough to reduce the HP bar of those bulletsponges and when it has come down to an acceptable level, you OS it with a random hit.

A spell that doubles the damage dealt to the enemies is just a damage increase but you still have to do something to kill them. I've never been able to kill the complete map by just spamming Nova's 4.

In my opinion this rerework would've been better if they simply changed this "one-hit damage" into a DoT. Your 50-second Cataclysm would deal 1% of enemies HP damage per second. That would've avoided Limbos with EV build that will still spam their Cataclysm to maximise their damage input.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Chewarette

[Gurpgork]

10 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

They specifically wanted Cataclysm to have a form of scaling damage so it is better at higher levels. It fails to do so currently.

I think there's an important difference between "deals scaling damage" and "kills everything on the map instantly, regardless of enemy level."

[Buzkyl]

Just now, Gurpgork said:

I think there's an important difference between "deals scaling damage" and "kills everything on the map instantly, regardless of enemy level."

There certainly is, everyone knewlimbo nuking a 40M area was going to nerfed. But the current damage is hardly anything to consider "scaling", right now you need to wait to full duration to do less damage than previous. Fixing the bubble size to damage dealt was already a fine nerf for map nuking. However, the new damage calculation is just overkill.

And if cataclsym is now meant solely for utility, what really is the pint in it shrinking?