[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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2 hours ago, ThreeFeetOfMagic said:

Why? Spores is sounding like it will literally replace the need for CP if a Saryn is around and just mass armor strip the map while Miasma doing 100% viral procs. If anything it sounds OP as S#&$. 

oh sorry i misread smth, u right

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I like the look of this; recently pulled my Saryn out of her mason jar to try out in Onslaught. Never really was a fan of her previous rework, felt like you had to use every button to make anything happen. This seems like the play style will be more natural/strategic.

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a little bit of topic(but not by much) is that the "add elemental dmg to allies" mods that saryn(and the others) have doesnt give the buff to the player that uses them, so the vast majority of people will ignore them, now having that effect on her skill will pretty much cement how useless those mods have become to most of us. already costing a mod slot(and we have so few of them that using a skill mod is a massive question in most builds), and now wbeing out done by her own skill...

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Saryns molt doesn't really taunt many enemies to shoot it over shooting her instead. Can we have a higher amount of enemy agro onto it so it draws fire more frequently than saryn herself please?

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à l’instant, (XB1)Cash201293 a dit :

I kinda don’t like corrosive replacing viral. Something about spreading Viral was so satisfiying. But corrosive do have some use against infested but only against the heavier units. But I rather spread viral against infested instead of corrosive. 

I know against Ancient Corrosive is better.. but cutting their HP in half is still better right ? 

I think that this is the change that almost everyone that played her in ultra endgame setup could say.. Sure the new changes doesnt change a lot of thing for sorties Level Mission.. But whatever .. 

Like Elite Onslaught change.. They are gonna roll the changes from corrosive to Viral and not care at all about all the feedback from that

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4 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

FINALLY I CAN REST PEACEFULLY

WE DID IT DEERFACE

 

Also, to the Viral question: yes and no. Viral will cut their hp in half virtually, but the spores are still doing the same reduced damage otherwise, thanks to enemy armor. And Spore's current damage isn't as good as folks think it is as a result. Thus the change.

 

Its a win win, MunsuLight l

Edited by Typhron
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I like this, it looks fun, this is what all warframes should aspire to be, fun to use.

First things first, there needs to be addressed how the build up works:

  •  It builds up damage, for the longer it stays active and loses its power once all enemies effected die. This idea is great, specially in missions when you are alone, makes for high risk, high reward gameplay that everyone will likely love. Micromanaging infected enemies to deal the most with the abilities.
    This is really my only grip here:
    • What happens once the damage ramps up to the point, it makes the mission entirely boring to the team involved?
    • What happens when enemies are killed before the spore has a chance to spread? (losing also instantly all the built up spore damage)

Other than this, i honestly think you guys should keep the Spore + Molt combo.

  • Instead just make the molt explode when it gets infected with spores, AOE. (it doesn't spread spore)
  • Giving it maybe a Voodoo like power, where the damage inflicted on Saryn is sent to the molted skin and further increases the area of effect of the explosion (or maybe damage)

Toxic lash on melee, for fun sake, maybe instead of double damage, honestly, i think it would be much more fun if it increased the range of melee normal combos (no slide attacks, just good old hack and slash) when using it. 

I mean, it is already a thing for saryn users to run with an huge stick, this just expands it to other melee. 

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As a big Saryn player I'm loving these changes. I expected some tweaks at some point but not another full rework, but I have to say there are A LOT of other frames who need this kind of attention so please prioritize the ones in most dire need in future.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is the energy return being removed from toxic lash. Let's be honest spores didn't exactly cost much before but Miasma which we now have a much bigger incentive to use does. I'm sensing she's going to have some energy problems if this gets removed from lash, even if we do use Zenurik.

To those complaining about the viral to corrosive:

I don't think there's any way this wont turn out to be a buff and it makes the most sense to do it this way.

Yes viral is strong but all the enemy types its strongest against (unarmored) are already a breeze to kill and she's got infinite damage scaling and just more damage in general with these changes. She also still has access to viral through Miasma which makes her 4 more useful now and worth casting outside of needing the stun in a panic situation. The scale at which you could afflict viral on was pretty strong as well so limiting it to a smaller area I think is a positive change, basically you need to put more effort in to take advantage of viral now, which is an ongoing theme with recent frame changes.

Saryn is a monster the way she is now. I think limiting the range she can put out viral is a reasonable trade for all the damage buffs, mass armor stripping and survivability boosts. Honestly the armor stripping alone (if it works the way I think it will) would be worth that trade, but no we also got infinite scaling and duration, miasma damage buff, lash damage on all weapons and a massive durability increase.

My only question is where did these changes even come from and what was the justification? She's already a monster, I think most saryn mains would be happy with spore optimization lol.

Edited by Aeryes
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This sounds very fun and promising. I really have no complaints about any of this.

Corpus are screwed, now. Guaranteed Toxin proc on everything. Heeee~

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb [DE]Danielle:

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt.

No. Pls just no. Why take away synergy - synergy is what makes a frame good or can improve a frames playstyle - I DON'T LIKE THIS! 

The viral to corrosive change can be good against high armoured enemies - but whats with the other enemy types?

Saryn is a good frame as she is right now - why change her? Ther are other frames that need more attention than her!

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Please don't change Spores and Miasma's elemental type. They're already good enough. Spreading 'sickness' and decreasing their health using Spores is great.

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move over equinox day and mesa, god teir dps saryn is here! 

I love my poison babe, but this does seem too big of a buff. How will this high (and unfair if in a squad) dps be handled? of course thers got to be a limmitation other than energy loss.

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4 hours ago, MonsieuRoberts said:

The only nerf I'm really reading here is that low damage max range Equinoxes will no longer two-tick spore-afflicted targets since she's spreading Corrosive instead of Viral.

If these Spores still carry my Toxin DoTs (and from reading this, they do), the source of my damage is still here. And the duration is now infinite. And the damage grows exponentially the longer my Spores are around.

I am very excited to try these changes out for myself sooner rather than later.

I doubt toxin dmg scales with spore dmg, unless I misread the wiki, though I find that likely seeing that spreading toxin procs with spores simply helps my condition overload. 

 

Still ambivalent about spores spreading but yes this looks good

 

(p.s. Now saryn has a mass armor stripping ability? Serious contender for h*ntai frame right here) 

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5 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

PS. We're still looking at the rest of your Arsenal! 

Radial Javelin, Slash Dash plezz.

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While I don't know why these changes are happening, I'm (almost) not embarrassed to say that I literally squeed when I saw this.
I missed Saryn under Damage 1.0.
I found OG Saryn under Damage 2.0 to be 75% useless (1-3), 25% niche (min dur Miasma).
I liked the idea of the interactions in Saryn Revisited. (An incarnation of an infection, spreading a disease that grows more powerful as the infection spreads - essentially the debuff counterpart of what Nidus later came to be. Nidus' spreads his Infestation to make him stronger, Saryn tends her Infection to make it stronger.)
But the implementation felt so forced and power hungry that I just couldn't. Which was sad, because while I didn't love Saryn, Saryn Prime is absolutely gorgeous. Granted, some if this is simply due to Warframe's technical state (or standards?) improving in the 3ish years inbetween.

So yeah, Saryn getting a better implementation of an appealing concept, on a frame that's already visually appealing?
I'm (trying to remain cautiously) quite excited.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

We feel Saryn's synergy as it stands follows a more forced than natural flow.

Amen. Glad to see this changed.
If multiple tools don't work independently, it's a dependency not a synergy.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

a decoy that doesn’t scale simply can’t hold up against high-level enemies. 

Amen.
See Molt note, but having some guaranteed uptime is an immense improvement - and might make Molt worth using in level 60+ missions that aren't a turtle mode..

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

While I never saw the point of this (Spores + Torid/Gas Lanka all the way), I can live with Sayrn being less braindead.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

General Changes

  • Increased Saryn’s Armor from 175 to 225 (at rank 30)
  • Increased Saryn Prime’s Armor from 225 to 300 (at rank 30) 

*Shrug* honestly.
This is an opaque change, and as far as I can tell not very significant, which just contributes to general stat bloat.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage!

Hrm. Interesting.
Does it still interact with toxin procs? Edit: Stream says 'no' 😞 This is a pretty darn big deal.

Also, I'm honestly surprised to see infinite duration, given that it was explicitly removed from Gara's Mass Vitrify, with an extreme reduction to its survival time and a scaling mechanic that's of dubious use.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies.

This makes sense to me, given the much higher proc rate of Spores over Miasma, as well as Spores now working as setup, letting Miasma act as a crescendo.
Assuming that the damage is there. Otherwise it's just a anticlimax.

The corollary, of course, is that Spores is now hugely less effective against Infested and Corpus, due to no longer halving their health while not benefiting from the Corrosive procs either. :/
And with a 15m base range, Miasma doesn't really have the range for wide area Viral application, I don't think. Maybe stop it popping Spores and have Spores extend Miasma's Viral proc range?
Edit: Or just have a Spores-ed enemy suffering a Viral proc apply it to all other Spores-ed enemies, I guess?
Then they still interact, though it's no longer the same 'set them up and knock them down'.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.

Since tone doesn't carry in text: this is a bewildered question.
(Given that Spores is now infinite, and scales by time,)  Why would I ever rather wipe out my ramped up Infestation (let alone for a mere 2 ticks worth of damage) rather than letting me seed spores in a new place if I'm afraid of the infection burning out where it currently is? 

Edit: Clarified the question's phrasing

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Venom Dose Augment Change:

Erm... why?
If you have Spore stripping armor, Corrosive to allies is both unneeded; and loses the Damage 2.0 multiplier.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Molt

Cheers.
If nothing else, all things being equal, this gives molt 8+ seconds of uptime. (4 invul, 4 sec to drain the time the damage absorbed, plus time to drain the innate HP.)
Which is up from the <1 sec past starchart.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

You’ve told us that having Toxic Lash limited to Melee was too restrictive and was simply not compatible with a broader variety of playstyles.

Amen.

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Contagion Cloud Augment change:

Ah!
Contagion Cloud's pretty much never been worth using, as melee already had ~equal range to the cloud.
But if it works with guns, and keeps its ability to proc toxin and pop spores, I am suddenly able to use so many more weapons than just Torid/Lanka/Ignis/Pox. (Some other possibilities, such as M Cernos exists, but are mostly sub-par.)
This makes me happy.  :)

Edit: Scratch all that. I use Contagion Cloud so infrequently that I forgot that Contagion Cloud is a flat (tiny) amount, disconnected from your weapon's damage.
Welp, sticking with the current arsenal.

 

Edit 2: Scratch all that. Spores apparently no longer transmit Toxin DoTs, making all this moot from the word go.

 

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Miasma

We’ve taken what’s great about Miasma, and made it even better in the scope of Saryn’s 2.0 changes! 

  • Changed Miasma’s damage type from Corrosive to Viral. 
    • *We've swapped Miasma and Spores damage types with one another since Spores in its 2.0 form allows for more than 1 proc per second.
  • Miasma has a 100% guaranteed Viral Status Effect on damage tick. 

As I said in Spores -  this makes sense to me. Spores lays the groundwork, stripping armor to prime the situation for Miasma's Viral to have full effect.

  • Increased damage from 350 to 500. 
  • Increased duration from 3 to 5 seconds. 
  • Miasma inflicts double damage on targets affected by Spores. 

Which means what, in practice?
e.g. "this means that each tick is viable against what max level, by faction? (e.g. assuming no armor, 1 tick will gib level sub-25 Corpus, sub-15 infested, etc., 2nd tick will then gib sub-35 corpus," and so on.
Absolute damage really doesn't matter, relative damage is what's important.

  • When recasting on the same enemy it will refresh the tick duration and maintain the Viral Status Effect, but will not stun enemies a second time.

Ooh, ouch. The absorbption period on Molt should help mitigate this a bit, but this is gonna hurt.

Replies inline in red


Looking forward to seeing this, and fingers crossed.

Edited by Chroia
Contagion Cloud has its own damage. RIP that thought. // Spores no longer interacts with Toxin DoTs *anyway*. RIP that thought.

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)Ferulia said:

No. Pls just no. Why take away synergy - synergy is what makes a frame good or can improve a frames playstyle - I DON'T LIKE THIS! 

The viral to corrosive change can be good against high armoured enemies - but whats with the other enemy types?

Saryn is a good frame as she is right now - why change her? Ther are other frames that need more attention than her!

I can't answer why they worked on these changes as I agree she's already a strong frame but...

Corrosive (especially if it works the way I hope it works) is much more valuable. Cutting an enemies HP in half is strong but it's not like you aren't going to one shot most unarmored enemies at level 100+ even without viral. It has always been armored enemies which are the threat in warframe and this not only makes her able to deal with them but it might even be good enough that your squad doesn't even need to run CP anymore. That's a hell of a squad synergy right there and she already fits into squads really well.

On top of this you still have the ability to afflict mass viral procs, it justs just over a more smaller area and takes more effort than before. In my opinion a more active playstyle with an incentive to actually use Miasma is a nice change. if you build for range using miasma is essentially marking the room for death as they've probably got no armor left, plus you then half their health meanwhile your spores are probably doing stupid damage to the point where you barely even need your weapons anymore.

Edited by Aeryes
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I will say ... even tho this is a buff extraordinaire, I don't think she needed it. I am not pissed at all for the buff, i just think there were other warframes that could receive a quick "look up".

But again ... I AM NOT PISSED LOL Saryn is gonna be great.

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Still reading through all the comments, but first impressions is that I really enjoy all these changes.

Spores being Corrosive means I no longer have to run 4CP if I want to be effective v Grinner on any more difficult than the first 4 waves of Heircon, and the fact it has truly infinite duration (rather than effectively infinite)means duration is now the dump stat for Spore builds. Why care that you now need to spam Miasma for viral when it costs 25 energy? 

Molt having Iron Skin like scaling is great news. Now when I cast molt for the augment, I'm no longer having to hide in a corner so that it would last long enough for the full duration. I always felt dirty using the spore platform trick with molt as well, so I shed no tears now that it's gone.

I NO LONGER HAVE TO RUN GAS STATUS WEAPONS ALL THE TIME WITH SARYN! WOO! Sorry Pox, you were good, but I never really enjoyed throwing weapons.

Miasma *finally* having 100% status chance is great. That said, I am with some wishing it had a proper stun rather than a stagger... but silence-like stagger means that when I run my net-duration spore build the fact miasma lasts a sec won't affect the CC at all.

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How about instead of switching her damage types in the abilities you give her real mastery over poison and have her spore work like vauban's grenades (switch between corrosive, viral, and toxin) and have misma use your current spore setting. Way more flexibility that way. The proposed changes seem like they would be a buff against grineer while being a nerf vs the other factions. Also what is the reset duration on this infinite duration spore will it last between waves of a defense mission for instance?e

Edited by Elkaiozen
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Long thread, this has probably been mentioned:

A QOL change I would like to see is the ability to recast Toxic Lash while active to refresh the duration. 

I like the look of the changes though. While I liked playing Saryn, her abilities always felt a bit awkward to use.

Edited by Illithar
I'm a dumby

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45 minutes ago, LordBepis said:

Reading the re-work changes look great on paper, however watching them demo it on Mot left me kind of whelmed.

That's because the description is full of lies and half truths.  Eg, glossing over stripping spores' toxin status system, pretending spores will offer infinitely scaling damage" which is a flat lie since it'll get reset more often than that (and even if you don't trigger a reset, it'll eventually wipe or exchaust enemies and reset itself), suggesting Saryn won't need energy as we shift to having to miasma just to get the viral proc, making miasma's duration a penalty by removing re-stuns, acting like spores get infinite duration like spores expiring was ever a thing and we won't just have them reset anyway, ...

Edited by TyrianMollusk
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8 minutes ago, Aeryes said:

I can't answer why they worked on these changes as I agree she's already a strong frame but...

Corrosive (especially if it works the way I hope it works) is much more valuable. Cutting an enemies HP in half is strong but it's not like you aren't going to one shot most unarmored enemies at level 100+ even without viral. It has always been armored enemies which are the threat in warframe and this not only makes her able to deal with them but it might even be good enough that your squad doesn't even need to run CP anymore. That's a hell of a squad synergy right there and she already fits into squads really well.

On top of this you still have the ability to afflict mass viral procs, it just takes more effort than before and in my opinion a more active playstyle and a greater incentive to actually use Miasma is a nice change. if you build for range using miasma is essentially marking the room for death as they've probably got no armor left, plus you then half their health meanwhile you spores are probably doing stupid damage to the point where you barely even need your weapons anymore.

Mag exists and people are still using CP though. Those of use who play more frequently and using the quick public matches, are going to take CP if it's a survival/grineer tile, especially for ESO. Overall, this change hurts a majority of groups who rely on what little synergy from the few decent warframes there are.

Did anyone watch the gameplay on Twitch? I missed it and will have to wait now for the end of the broadcast but I'm certain it will show exactly, the concerns that many of us have here, when it comes to swapping elements of 1 and 4.

Edited by Morthal
Clarity.
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5 minutes ago, Illithar said:

Long thread, this has probably been mentioned:

A QOL change I would like to see is the ability to recast Toxic Lash while active to refresh the duration. 

I like the look of the changes though. While I liked playing Saryn, her abilities always felt a bit awkward to use.

That's already implemented lmao

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4 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

That's because the description is full of lies and half truths.  Eg, glossing over stripping spores' toxin status system, pretending spores will offer infinitely scaling damage" which is a flat lie since it'll get reset more often than that (and even if you don't trigger a reset, it'll eventually wipe or exchaust enemies and reset itself), suggesting Saryn won't need energy as we shift to having to miasma just to get the viral proc, ...

Everything needs a limit. Equinox has infinite damage scaling but needs to build it up, same for Octavia and Mag.

That said against high enough level enemies theres no reason your spores wont go on for a very long time.

Even if she didnt get any damage buffs having access to armor stripping on a massive area while still being able to put viral on a reasonably large area is very strong. When you add in scaling damage, duration, more weapon flexibility and more survivability this is one crazy buff which came out of nowhere.

I agree on the energy though, removing it from lash while making Miasma worth casting is contradictory and she'll probably have some major energy issues.

Edited by Aeryes
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After hearing the new sound of miasma being cast from the preview stream today

I'm not a big fan of the WOOOSH sound that was being given

The bio splat sound was definitely a lot better

Edited by Helm
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