[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)tyatsum]

Wowwww.... 20 energy per second is just wowww that's ridiculously high,I Do not like 0.0  I mean realistically you can only use you 4 as long as 2 is active then ur going to pop out of his 4 for endgame at least and holy crap what if there's an energy leech while your in 4 ...???? That's a rest in peaces 

Edited August 30, 2018 by (PS4)tyatsum

[Zyneris]

The cap increase on his 1 doesn't do anything to help him. Enthrall should be reworked in to something more fitting of the eidolon theme AS WELL AS the fact that enemy AI is utter terribadness. His 2 needs more charges at the minimum so he can be more tanky. Reave doesn't fit his theme, but is ok if drains could be increased somehow (this could also mitigate an increase to Mesmer Skin IF you make the drains enough to keep him alive if used correctly). 

The 4 increase....just why? 

[Xaxma]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

Is OP a joke? Comparing revenant's 4 to the real cheese in WF (Peacemaker crutch, Resquake crutch, Maim crutch, Spore/Miasma crutch, Discharge crutch) is ridiculous. It does high damage with the tradeoffs of low range, no parkour other than its 3, and high energy drain. If player's team is not killing things at range fast enough to prevent a spinning revenant from killing them, player is weak and on a weak team.

We're aware of these crutches, but DE has recently shown no interest in balancing these frames, especially not Peacemaker or Spore since they seem "done" with tweaking and want to move on as they usually want to do.

What we're upset about is that Revenant appeared to be on the path of doing much of the same, only now with the massive nerf that just hit live, it seems unlikely with the abysmal energy cost lol.

[Typhron]

This is feedback based on my own testings and whathaveyou.

The 4 change won't change how people play with it, as despite it's energy cost even with a whole boatload of duration and/or efficiency. It's 'set it and forget it' nature comes from it being a channeled ability that takes over your frame and prevents you from doing other things (even jumping), while still being a primarily damage-based ability. It still does scads of damage, with no status or interaction: you're still expected to use it in conjunction with your other abilities, and it's still just what it was before. It's not great.

His 1 shouldn't have a cap, and if you're all really worried about it it should be far higher than any number in the single digits. His entire kit revolves around Thralls and he can't regain them while channeling his 3 or 4. That's really the only issue with his 1, but it's a fairly big and restricting thing that is rather egregious, and one of the biggest common complaints within this thread.

2 needs some serious tooling in general, but I think that's been talked about enough in the thread already. How it's seems to be affected by dots, it's cast time, it's very low charge rate in general. Etc.

 

Overall, this is an aggressive control frame that has very little in the way of control from the actual player. The frame is playable at least, but there are many more changes that should be looked at that go beyond QoL. Whether it's control, damage, or fun factor there are several more frames better than him at the moment.

 

...Thank you for changing the graphic on his 3, though.

[Wandering_Sun]

I don't get the anti "set it and forget it" mindset you guys have been hammering about lately, most of the changes you have made to fix this have been horrible and pissed everyone off, Ember was my favorite frame and now.. I haven't touched her in months, Sayrn has been a rollercoaster of amazing then terrible then amazing and back again. and overall its not making the game feel fun. So often it feels like you guys are punishing fun, "oh people are liking this skill or weapon to much? better nerf it into uselessness" Just please stop ruining things the players like its not a good look.

[Wulfric94]

Not all of us spend our days on Hydron, you know. 

The increased energy drain is just ludicrous. It was higher than average to begin in the first place, but now its just disgusting. Primed flow or flow mods are a must now. It'll limit build variety. But hey nerfing it because of Hydron or Helene or whatever is a higher priority, I guess. 

[Threa]

I think I’m more angry about DE thinking this was a necessary change. The cost increase is insane and makes no #*!%ing sense. They’ve lost so much of my respect. You finally release a decent frame after the Khora debacle and then you proceed to kill the frame. 

I hope console players read the forums and don’t buy/farm him. At least not until they fix the mess they created. 

[kaelvamp]

Revenant STILL Dies in 1 shot by nulifiers high level EVEN with FULL stacks of his 2.

as shown in this video, and after the fixes for revenant this still a thing
 

 

[Buttaface]

9 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

What we're upset about is that Revenant appeared to be on the path of doing much of the same, only now with the massive nerf that just hit live, it seems unlikely with the abysmal energy cost lol.

The whole premise is ridiculous. The frame is brand new, of course people are playing it and using it... now. Guarantee with 100% certaintly, without the nerf, aoe crutch tryhards would be right back to Mesa, Equinox, Volt, Banshee and especially Saryn in a week or so and Rev would be in the long list of interesting but unplayed frames. Revenant was never any competition to those in the OP cheeze department, not even remotely close.

The only way that Revenant's 4 ever appeared OP was on weak teams. On teams with any of the aforesaid cheeze frames, or even ANY frames with maxed weapons and not afk, Revenant was never that good. Have been on many even half decent teams with spinning Revenants, and they never overkill like the actual problem frames.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Buttaface

[packroach]

Danse Macabre's 60% increase in energy consumption is too much to do ...

[DrBorris]

This is in regard to this...

1 hour ago, [DE]Drew said:

Enthrall cap for thralled enemies increased from 4 to 7.

• Developer Note: We listened to the feedback that 4 was too few, so we’ve buffed the number to match Nekros’ max Shadows.

DE... really? I am going to glance over SotD being a bad ability as it stands, its redemption only coming from an Augment, because honestly SotD is not what Enthrall should be compared to in the first place.

 

When it comes to gameplay, making Thralls is more like casting (a bad version of) Chaos. Sure, when enemies are affected by Chaos they can damage you, but I feel most of us can agree that is a rare occurrence (because enemies group up and Chaos has enemies attack the closest target). Let's also note that even if Chaos did make it so enemies could not damage you, Nyx would still be underwhelming.

Thralls, while they are unable to damage you, don't get the benefits of being able to teleport next to you, having hugely enhanced damage/health, and most importantly, THEY CAN (and have mechanics that encouraged) BE KILLED. I see people complaining "don't kill the Thralls" in a mission, forgetting that much of the synergy in Revenant's kit is asking for you to kill them. Making Thralls is not the end-all-be-all, it is just the beginning of Revenant's kit. You are supposed to kill your Thralls.

 

DE, I am not sure what you are worried about with people having a high amount of Thralls. We can already stun an entire map with Vauban or Banshee and in those cases you don't have to rely on the dopey AI. Thralls are not going to kill anything, they will never do enough damage, Thralls are purely a form of CC... CC that is capped to a pathetic cap of 7. Imagine if Chaos had a cap of 7. Imagine if Equinox's Maim had a cap of 7. Oh, and you have to wait for the AI to shoot itself to get it to spread, let's not forget about that little detail. It is not like Enthrall is a instant reward, or that you would instantly have an army of Thralls.

 

Base suggestion: Increase the enemy cap to 20.

 

More Revenant Suggestions: Make him the master of Thralls, not their nanny.

• Get that Enthrall cap increased to 20 (at least). Have the damaging pillar do 10% of the dead's Thrall HP per second, enemies that hit the pillar are Enthralled.
• Enemies that hit Mesmer Skin are turned into Thralls without having to cast Enthrall on them.
• Reave has a 25% (moddable) chance to Enthrall enemies you hit.
• With the above, the Danse Macabre energy increase would be fine. Crazy addition, Thralls target you while you are spinning, adding damage to your beams but not actually decreasing your health/shields.

 

The sad thing is, even if DE went all out and put through those extreme buffs I suggested above, Revenant would still not be a "meta" Warframe. Other Warframes would CC better, DPS better, tank better. But at least Revenant would do a thing (Make minions, then kill them in a glorious light show) and do it effectively.

Edited August 30, 2018 by DrBorris
swearing

[Xaxma]

Just now, Buttaface said:

The whole premise is ridiculous. The frame is brand new, of course people are playing it and using it... now. Guarantee with 100% certaintly, without the nerf, aoe crutch tryhards would be right back to Mesa, Equinox, Volt, Banshee and especially Saryn in a week or so. Revenant was never any competition to those in the OP cheeze department, not even remotely close.

The only way that Revenant's 4 ever appeared OP was on weak teams. On teams with any of the aforesaid cheeze frames, or even ANY frames with maxed weapons and not afk, Revenant was never that good. Have been on many even half decent teams with spinning Revenants, and they never overkill like the actual problem frames.

It's because his angle that he fires at isn't as bad as the others. He actually does have pretty good damage but it was balanced by the fact that he could only kill things eye-level with him and at a slim 45 degree-ish angle down and around him. It honestly wasn't that bad at all, but it did probably need to be changed anyway just for the sheer boringness of using the skill up into late starchart.

What they could do is just make Danse Macabre deal finisher damage on his own thralls instead, which would actually make him require to use 1 more often to set up enemy wipes.

[Derpchief]

If I'm being honest 20 energy per second is a bit much, if you really don't want ''press one button and win'' frames then nerf:

• Saryn
• Equinox
• Banshee
• Ember
• Limbo
• Loki
• Nova
• Everything Octavia does

Doing this would be insane so I don't see why the good old (not really that old) Revenant gets the short end of the Bo.I've probably forgotten a bunch too. All of Revenant's other abilities are underwhelming, this is all he's got. In my opinion it should be 14-17 energy per second and some of his other abilities should be casted faster and have generally more impact behind them because as it stands most of the above frames outclass him. In an almost strictly PVE game I believe everything should be strong, especially the spunky new Revenant.

[(PSN)tyatsum]

As for trying to make more use out of the enthrall over shield drops ??????? Why bother?shields are useless as heck until/if shield gating becomes a thing.. your just going to be one shot through 1000 shields and still get smacked into bleedout..mag is a prime example of the uselessness of over shields and she gets 1650 with no redirection..   

[DinoConV]

Really don't like these changes. Sure, you could nerf the 4 a bit if you want, but the rest of his kit still just doesn't feel fun to use right now. Hope he can see some love because this puts him in unplayable for me 😞

[Horaciozhao]

There is a weird bug after update 23.6, Panthera can't kill entralled enemies by Revenant anymore. I tried other weapons, they work fine, up until now just Panthera do no damage to them

[Xaxma]

I don't care for his 4 nerf, which was justified by the way, but his 1 doesn't go far enough.
The reason his thralls are so much worse than Nekros' is because Nekros' shadows can't be killed.

If you're going to buff his 1 and make him more reliant on thralls, you'll have to employ an assortment of QoL changes that make them more viable and convenient:

• Thralls need to have a more obvious FX added to them
• Thralls need to be unkillable by allies EXCEPT by your Danse Macabre
• The damaging pillar when a thrall dies needs to be a less miserable range for the DPS to be any bit useful.
• Thralls should accumulate damage dealt to them while allied with the Tenno similarly to how Nyx's Mind Controlled enemy works to disallow perpetual mission trolling

These are just a handful of things I can think about. Part of me wishes 1 would spawn an allied energy-Volmvalyst from the pillars in the color of your energy for some amount of seconds, but that's just hopeful thinking.

Edited 34 minutes ago by Xaxma

[ErikTheOrange]

Phantasma alt projectile clips through the floor in Simulacrum.

[ZodiacShinryu]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I know the infested well but lets not try to act like every warframe has 3 ancients capatable of nullfiying their power based damage output. 

Except ALL warframes are affected by 2 no exception which destroy most powers anyway, and the higher you go the more prominent the effects will get. Only frames that get affected by all 3 are frames dealing with Toxin/Gas which at this point, off the top my head is, innately: Saryn (use to be a larger problem; personally want that problem back in general), Chroma (which this aspect at this time no one is going to care about) and Revenant. Also frames that modify their damage with mods can have greater reduced values than expected: Exalted class notably Toxin/Gas builds on Chromatic Blade Excalibur. Doesn't make any of them less of high priority targets that are better taken out with other means.

I said there were a number of exceptions on effectiveness depending on how the power mechanically works. Of course, direct Buff class abilities (Roar, Vex, etc) work. Exalted class can most of the time push through because they are in part treated like a weapon and all that entails. Continuous effects that sample short processing time Limbo and Banshee (without the augment) and a lesser extent Vauban trap enemies by the mechanical function of their abilities. Disruptors could reduce CC by 99% and still never beat Stasis because of that fact. However I do believe Healers can bypass Resonating Quake Banshee by diverting the stagger/knockdown from allies in some cases (maybe it is more positional in this case). Equinox Maim happens to benefit from augmented damage potential because of how it functions which can give it an edge but...

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

If an ember is capatable of dealing 1000 damage per tick that means that after getting near a healer she will do 100 damage and after meeting the disruptor the damage is decreased to 10, also to put the icing on the cake ember can just go and continue like there are no ancients around since her skill is a soft toggle, while in the case of banshee the enemies are already hard staggered to not be able to move.

Ember? Really? I have seen like 10 different "Ember is trash" threads over the month and we are going to elevate her one benefit (WoF just being a passive aura) as a case against another power that deals way more damage in general? What? Factoring out everything but Power damage whether you have 2 types or all 3, they are both pumping out absolutely nothing! As the level increases the nothing gets even more pronounced Ember (and her one benefit) can just happen to proceed as usual. All other frames that don't meet the exception list likely need to find another way (generally old fashion target acquisitions), Revenant is no different in that regard.

I am not going to compare a CC (focused/fall back in this case) skill to a damage one. Sound quake, augment or not, has always been better for CC than damage especially for the infested where her damage is going to take a hit anyway. Danse is not a CC skill in any way and as far as release goes it never was. But both of them get reduced to the same insignificant levels even if Revenant has to worry about 1 more enemy.

[Morgawse]

<Quote>

• Enthrall cap for thralled enemies increased from 4 to 7.
  • Developer Note: We listened to the feedback that 4 was too few, so we’ve buffed the number to match Nekros’ max Shadows.
• Danse Macabre energy cost increased from 12.5 to 20 energy per second.
  • Developer Note: In keeping with changes we've made to Warframes in the past to deter from the "set it and forget" approach, we have increased the energy per second on Danse Macabre. We are hoping that with Enthrall's cap increase you can benefit from more overshield pickups with Danse Macabre. 

</Quote>

1 - So now teammates can kill 7 Thralls immediately instead of 4... but really who cares it even if they existed like Nekro's Clones Nekros does it better.

2 - So imho this guy was not play tested by a critical mind... none of his skills are any good. Maybe someone might have found his #4 useful enough to play him once in a while, not me I leveled and forma'd him and I find it hard to name a more boring or uninteresting ability in the game, who cares how long it goes or fast it kills as you slowly move around the map and get stuck on almost everything on the ground. But *if* someone found that skill fun, they won't anymore when it shuts off faster than they can think of where to go with it.

My best realtor voice : "And heeeere we have the back of the closet. You'll find Wukong and Nezha hanging out here often, you'll fit right in Rev."

I don't even mean any salt and I'm not upset at all as he was going on my do not play shelf anyway... I just don't get the mentality: Hey this frame is not working out like we wanted and it is not useful... lets make it worse.

 

 

 

[VieuxPappy]

Those are the changes that should happen if we want to see Rev stay relevant endgame. Sorry in advance for the Wall of Text.

 

As others already said, regarding his Enthralled: 3 (75%) more thralls isn't enough. The ability needs several fixes:

(1)Thralls should be immune to any Tenno damage (excluding the Revenant that enthralled it obviously) for the duration and any "soaked" damage (like for Nyx's mind control ability) is dished to them only once the duration of the ability reaches zero. 

(2)Pillars left from thralls' corpses should be pulsing AoE explosions (of about 3m radius at least) of sentient energy that does a couple of things: damage that scales with the (now dead) thrall's max hp + survivors of said explosions are enthralled. Size of pulses/explosions and duration of pulsating pillars scale off of range and duration respectively.

(3)Enthralled enemies should have a damage multiplier buff that scales with Revenant's Ability Strength. Enemy vs enemy damage is pitiful (health scales way more than their damage) which means they need a damage multiplier in order to not have them being useless when fighting other enemies that aren't lvl 10 or less. Their damage needs a REALLY high buff in order to stay relevant against other enemies.

(4)Max number of thralls needs to scale off of something like Str or Duration.  

(5)Faster animation.

 

Regarding his Mesmer Skin:

(1)Rev should be able to use the ability while he still has charges left to refresh the number of charges.

(2)Charges should be time gated exactly like Inaros' scarab swarm augment "Negation Swarm". So that a single charge protects for 5 sec before another charge can be consumed. This will help against having multiple enemies shoot you at the same time with high rate of fire weaponry eating your charges. 

(3)Mesmer Skin protects only his health, not his shield (to have stronger synergy with his new passive, see bottom paragraph to understand). 

 

Regarding his Reave:

(1)Give Reave the same invulnerability window for it's duration as Slash Dash does to excalibur (including startup and finishing animations).

(2)Faster animation startup and finish.

(3) 40% leech off of enthralled enemies is fine but 8% for non-enthralled is just pitiful. It needs to be at least 20%. Also, once his hp is refilled completly, all excess  hp leeched goes toward refilling Rev's shield. Right now only the corpus are worth leeching off as they're the only ones with shields. 

(4)Energy cost refunded per enemy affected exactly like nidus' virulence. 1/3 of the ability cost is refunded per enemy (so 25 energy when at 100% efficiency). This way Revenant could have a way to sustain his ridiculously costy Danse Macabre by dashing into groups of enemies (more than 3 to actually gain energy) to allow him to remain in DM form for longer.

 

Regarding his Danse Macabre, because it's energy cost is now so ridiculously high, Rev NEEDS to receive multiple defensive buffs while using it:

(1)First, the overshield drops should actually be given instantly to Rev and his teamates (similar to Volt's 4 with the augment). This QoL is needed. 

(2)The overshield drops should scale off of both the Rev's Str and the killed enemy's total hp and shield. 

(3)Overshield drops should be given by every single enemy killed by this ability. Enthralled enemies killed now give the Rev a charge for his Mesmer Skin regardless if it's already active or not. That way, even if he runs out of charges, the Mesmer Skin ability can be reapplied without him having to leave his Danse Macabre or costing him any energy. Otherwise, just being able to regain charges by killing enemies will go a long way in sustaining Mesmer Skin (if it's already active while entering Danse Macabre) without having to leave DM form.

(4)Beam affecting flesh should deal heat damage, not gas. Gas damage is simply garbage against corpus/grineer flesh and while good against infested flesh, becomes nullified by ancients. 

(5)Charging (with left click) should also speed up the speed at which Rev spins around (double, like the energy cost). 40 energy per sec is RIDICULOUSLY HIGH! Overshield gained by killing enemies with the charged version of DM should also be doubled. 

 

Regarding his passive:

(1) New bonus effect on top of the current effect: For X amount of shield or overshield lost, Revenant recovers Y amount of energy. Essentially a Hunter Adrenaline or Rage but for shield damage instead. 

That is my ideas on how to increase the synergy between his abilities and allow him to have a certain high risk/ high reward gameplay : losing shields fuels him energy which fuels his Danse Macabre which kills enemies to regain his shield/overshield.  This will allow him to remain strong against crowds but not so much against a sole stronger mob which he can't leech or regain shield/overshield from so he can't just face tank as he's gonna run out of energy and shield quite rapidly without any trash mobs to kill/fuel off of his shield/energy. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by VieuxPappy

[GinKenshin]

I think we're expecting too much from a 1st ability tbh.....20 thralls will never happen when we only have 7 shadows, though with much more benefits and QoL

[Prince90000]

Danse Macabre now costs 40 energy/s when boosted. Im crying rn lmao

[Dusteon]

Why would you nerf an already mediocre frame while buffing a frankly terrible ability without fixing any of the core problems that make it terrible? His 1 is bad. There is no getting around this fact: it's mind control in a game where enemies have tens or hundreds of thousands of effective health points, and take thousands of their own bullets to die. His 2 is good, but has a incredibly long cast time for an ability he must always keep up and cannot refresh. His 3 is Tidal Surge, and I don't think an essay is needed on why people do not ever want Tidal Surge to exist in a game where bullet jumps also exist. His 4 is decent (outside of being almost useless if there's any elevation changes in the level), but now costs more energy then literally every channeled ability in the game despite being worse then all of them.

Also, pretty major complaint. Why does his 3 restore health and shields when the ability he always wants up provides immunity to damage? Just...why. Revenant never wants to be taking damage to begin with, so why does his 3 restore damage taken instead of restoring 2 charges? Likewise, why does his 4 give overshields when, again, he should not be taking damage.

 

Please, just...Have Pablo look over frames. This happens with basically every frame released, where the designer just throws random 'cool' stuff together without any though on if this makes a cohesive and remotely useful kit. It's why we have Ember's "I have 4 fire themed abilities, 2 of which are literally never worth casting!" or Vauban's "look at all the terrible traps I can throw out that are all just a worse version of my 3!". It feels terrible when every new frame and rework comes with the implicit promise that the frame will have several glaring flaws and issues that will never be fixed or addressed, and that almost any change will come with nerfs regardless of the frame's usefulness.

[ADirtyMonk]

Whatever the person who approved those "fixes" are on I want some of it. 

Thralls are S#&amp;&#036;. Any minion ability is that does not provide significant buffs to the warframe. The main reason being NPC damage-health scaling means they do basically no damage to each other past lv 20s-30s. Also 4 thralls, 7 thralls, 100 thralls. Doesnt matter so long as they take "friendly" fire they are going to be dead in under 20 seconds when exposed to a squad of properly geared Tenno. Or a single mesa or saryn. May as well just delete the ability. A non mobile DOT is not impressive. Making an insanely expensive heal slightly better doesnt make the ability worth the energy it costs either. They way it currently is, the vast majority of the benefit from this ability has to be designed around thralls dying. An AOE explosion on death with finisher damage or several guaranteed status procs would be better, or make them heal/buff allies in some way idc.

Shields without damage reduction are absolute S#&amp;&#036; for endgame. Revenant doesnt need 2 shield restore abilities. Eidolons have near invincible shields to anything except void damage. Why not give this a 95% damage reduction to shields and leave the shield restore to his ult or give the damage reduction if he dashes through a thrall.

Ult is not impressive. In terms of damage or utility or looks. And you hit it with a 60% nerf with nothing to make up for that. Bravo. #*!%ing Bravo.

Overall, Revenant does nothing existing frames cannot do better. There is not a #*!%ing thing that would make me take Revenant over say. Mesa, or Nova, or a disarm Loki. Dont release a warframe that you cant even theme properly or give a proper quest to just so you can say you released it. Oh and that "quest". Dont call Nakak giving 10 minutes straight of exposition then booting us out to run a few hours of bounties a quest. Thats just insulting to your previous works.

Edited August 30, 2018 by ADirtyMonk