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[DE]Marcus

How to Provide Good Constructive Feedback: A Dev’s Story

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Thanks for pinning this, I can't count the amount of threads i've come across that need to read this before posting

Edited by paul5473
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I might be wrong here but didnt we always had a "how to create feedback" thread here? Did it got replaced or moved?

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2 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I might be wrong here but didnt we always had a "how to create feedback" thread here? Did it got replaced or moved?

Well, the old one sure as hell wasnt doing it’s job xD 

 

  Plus, I’m sure they just wanted to make sure we know how to do feedback. Sadly for them, I’ve seen many people trying to tell others how things should be done, and can safely take a guess and say that this thread is pointless. People won’t have an epiphany or something after reading this. This is merely restating the rules after an event that might make it harder to enforce them, as in Fortuna release and the usual ‘feedback’ threads  

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58 minutes ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Remember to be constructive

I would like to ask that how can someone be constructive when he makes a thread about a long standing developer sided problem?

Visual problems like the rubber trees and ham in PoE, the host migration problems, ping range, unstuck command and such what cant be really discussed more than with a few lines like:

The host migration still deletes loot.

When will it be fixed?

This can be lengthened into a short essay but its pointless.

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Can i be constructive but fill the whole thing with compliment or i can get reported because its not straight to the point ?

 

Keep the good work guys ^.^ 

Edited by trunks013
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Can I say something in retaliation though?

We as users also need feedback from you guys too. I posted countless amounts of bug reports and suggestion threads, constantly keeping within the rules specified here. I never got a single piece of feedback from staff. No "thank you, we'll take this into consideration", no "Sorry, but your suggestion is impossible to implement". no nothing. Not even a single reason given as to why very constructive and productive threads got deleted. I had a very nice Archwing Feedback a short while before the "new" archwing controls at the time got rolled back. I can't find that thread anymore, even though it focused not only on the new Archwing controls, but Archwing as a whole.

You know the only thing I ever got "feedback" on? I angrily ranted that the Opticor doesn't do damage to Vay Hek anymore. Next update that thing got fixed. I know you guys can't possibly reply in depth to every single thread, but, come on, if the only thing I personally got feedback on is an angry rant, you're not really setting a good example here. What you're telling me is that ranting angrily gets my problems fixed, while calm, constructive feedback gets constantly ignored.

I know I may sound like a complete tit here, but it really takes two to dance, so is it really that wrong for me to expect the same level of respect from you that you expect from us? Maybe I'm entitled, I dunno, but frankly, I think even a thank you will go a long way towards making us understand our feedback is being taken into consideration.

Regardless, I will continue to post my bug reports and my suggestions threads as they pop into my head. I love this game and this community too much to stop over such a small matter. So, thank you for all your hard work!

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Not sure how well this will help seeing as threads that don't give proper feedback or even feedback at all remain way longer than they need, while threads that had a good amount of feedback and discussion eventually get lost to time or merged into a confusing mess. These make having discussions nearly impossible to begin with. 

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The biggest problem i've seen so far is that point 3 falls flat most of the time due to trolls coming and ruining a thread with nonsense. No matter how good and concrete you send your points over. And that's what turns a discussion into a fight.

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Alright, how about this.

 

@[DE]Rebecca I urge you to take another look at Revenant. Currently his 4, his best ability is his most boring one, yes, it's worse than Mesa's 4, sure it doesn't adapt to enemy types, but it can be built to do so for each faction and with an infinite spray of bullets it scales about as well even better since it can deal with single targets and ancient healers.

(Also his Enthrall needs lots of changes)

I have left what I feel is plenty of feedback in the unpinned megathread and some other threads. Though, they aren't perfect (I don't believe anything can be)  I feel like they are good ideas to work with.

If not now, because I understand that Fortuna release is near and that will bring a slew of necessary hotfixes and changes, I feel like this is something that should be at least considered for early-mid 2019.

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43 minutes ago, Rydia said:

If the profanity doesn't help your point in any substantive way, then do you really need it? Your comment above doesn't say, "[DE]Marcus, it's so #$^#$)^&$# inconvenient and bad..." but the implication is still there that you are saying DE did something inconvenient and bad. Why not simply say, "I find the mechanic time-consuming and not very engaging. Here's how it could be improved..."?

There are plenty of good times for profanity, too, don't get me wrong. But is this one of them? Everything you say about Warframe could be read by a developer who actually wrote that line of code. Go the extra inch. Don't be another drop of poison in the online ocean.

and then again, there are so many people who gets antsy by even non-profanity statements and complain about the other one being rude and/or agressive... i have seen this so many times, i wonder if there that much kindergarten kids roaming the forums or what else made them over-senitive - or, if they just trolling around by baiting for a real agressive respond to such whinning.

and ofc, one should never forget all those players whose native language isn't english and therefore might not have mastered the "finer" art of articulation (written-wise, that is). therefore, as long as a post isn't directly insulting with profanities of the more bad kind (meaning calling someone a fool or even an idiot isn't rude in my book) and derailing a thread by such controversy (intentional or not), a moderator shouldn't act like an inquisitor - as some mods often do (general speaking, not only for this forum).

but ofc, that's my point of view and you can't ever do right by all people when you have to decide to censor or swinging the ol' ban-hammer around ^^)

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1 hour ago, [DE]Marcus said:

As Developers at Digital Extremes, we would not be where we are today without feedback and input from you. Giving constructive and concise feedback on the forums is paramount to integrating changes as fast as we can, to polish and ship the content to all of you.

When we use the Forums to read feedback, a well constructed and thought out post is the way to go. Here is a fast guide from a Dev side to write good, useful feedback.

1. Keep it simple

  • Write simple, directed points about the topic you feel strongly about. Remember to be constructive and to the point.

2. Back it up

  • Support your points with concrete points. X has better stats than Y. This ability is less useful when considering X. Provide in-game situational evidence or a solid foundation for your argument to rest upon.

3. Be polite

  • The best feedback occurs when two people discuss opposing viewpoints to find a constructive middle ground. Discussion is a natural part of feedback! Ensuring that it is polite and without personal attacks is key. We’re far less inclined to listen to feedback filled with personal attacks and rude speech. We are all trying our best!

The Forums can be an amazing tool when used correctly. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on ideas on the Fortuna update, which we are so incredibly excited to share with all of you.

Cheers,

All of us at DE

All very good things.   My main problem relates to major releases, such as the upcoming Fortuna.    There are often a small number of massively sized feedback discussion threads for major releases, but because of the size, it feels like feedback put into those threads is often lost in the shuffle, and can get repetitive since you have to read through the entire thread to see if someone else has reported the same thing.

In theory, it would be better to post individual discussion threads for each problem, tagged in the subject such as "[Fortuna] K-Drive caught on fire and exploded", but the bigger problem I see there is the forum gets massively bogged down with pages of feedback report threads.

I don't see any good short term solution to the large feedback threads.   Long term, however, have you considered incorporating some kind of searchable feedback/bug tracking system into the Forums?   That would allow multiple reports to be collated on the same topic, comments on them to be included, and allow some kind of simple status feedback from DE to allow us to know that, yes, the problem has at least been noticed.    Just an idea.

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32 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:
1 hour ago, [DE]Marcus said:

 

I would like to ask that how can someone be constructive when he makes a thread about a long standing developer sided problem?

Visual problems like the rubber trees and ham in PoE, the host migration problems, ping range, unstuck command and such what cant be really discussed more than with a few lines like:

The host migration still deletes loot.

When will it be fixed?

This can be lengthened into a short essay but its pointless.

I argue that these are considered bugs and not much actual feedback cam be given on these.

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1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

As someone who as tried to follow rules like this, it is really disheartening to see the more, uh, let's call it 'aggressive' feedback often get the most attention from the Forum community itself (not insinuating it gets more from you all at DE).

 

So my word to the community, if you see a thread that is NOT those things in the OP of this thread, don't take the bait, you don't have to respond. And even more importantly, if someone DOES follow these concepts then you should comment on their post. Even if all you say is "That's a great idea" or "I agree" you are doing that topic a massive favor by allowing more people to see this good idea.

  Reveal hidden contents

I still am on the side that reactions, or maybe just the up-vote reaction should 'bump' threads as to allow people who agree with ideas to say they agree without just spamming the comments of the thread. As it stands generally the most criticized ideas are the most viewed ideas due to commenting being the only way to 'bump'.

 

This so much. I hate that aggressive controversial topics get the most attention. 

I can make tons of thoughtful "Mesa needs her 1 to charge passively" post that die quickly while "Oberon is horrible, DE doesn't know what a paladin is" topic stays on front page for weeks.

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56 minutes ago, paul5473 said:

This needs to be pinned i can't count the amount of threads i've come across that need to read this before posting

I think when it was first posted it got pinned. I may be wrong, though. Either way, it's pinned already. 🙂 

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10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Are there any plans to make the feedback loop more concrete?

Providing good feedback is a time-consuming and laborious process, and sometimes it can feel a lot like hurling words into a dark void. I'd imagine that many players resort to flippant or confrontational posts because

a) they assume it won't actually reach the right people or

b) they assume that controversy (and thus lots of replies) are important for visibility.

It doesn't help that the unofficial-yet-mostly-accepted sentiment is that reddit is the real "official" Forums and gets more attention/response in the feedback process. A simple automated "read by X" tag for each thread would be great for eliminating the impression of talking to a brick wall, and I'd wager that it would promote better overall behavior to know big brother really is watching.

EDIT:

I think it would also be helpful to provide some guidelines for how to disagree in ways that are constructive.

I see far too many threads get derailed by responses that point out flaws as reasons why the feedback must be dismissed entirely instead of collaborating to find solutions to those flaws.

This right here^ original.gif

 

And I would like a response from Marcus or the powers that be. 

Because we are told not to spam subjects or threads and not to revive "old" threads but when we get no response(s) (wether that be in the forums or questions for the Dev streams) and then we get out right ignored. What are we supposed to do? 

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82
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1 hour ago, D20 said:

After writing :

Once your feedback thread is posted, you will have to sustain it by defending your ideas, keeping it up to date and replying to other users. Remain as respectful as possible and try to answer people as much as you can in the most constructive way possible. The more your post will keep going peacefully, the better it is. Don't try to absolutely convince everyone at all cost, it usually won't work and it's the best way to get someone angry. If you ever come across some people who sound a bit too agressive and you're afraid about them derailing the thread, avoid to answer them and report them if necessary.

This sounds sensible, but the way content visibility is set up actively disincentivizes the proposed ignore + report behavior as mentioned by @DrBorris.

The dissent is what actually keeps threads going, so simply ignoring replies is often an unattractive option. What's worse is when enough toxic or off-topic responses (even if the OP is not involved) is enough to get a thread locked. Enabling posters to effectively sink threads isn't what I'd call ideal.

I have a reasonable amount of faith in the moderation, but the above doesn't really help alleviate those seeds of doubt when I consider clicking that report button. Positive feedback both in terms of threads and responses to threads also comes across as rather fruitless without a concrete feedback loop of some sort.

For example, it would be a waste of everyone's time and energy to have a thread full of "this is great" or "I agree" only for the core ideas of the thread to be incompatible with DE's design vision... Especially when the posters in that thread are unlikely to actually get that message.

For those reasons, I think it would be beneficial on all sides to make relevant improvements to the Forums to promote actual communications.

  • "Read by" tags for when devs read feedback threads.
  • Periodic opportunities to directly discuss hot-button or repeat topics with the devs rather than limited public responses which oftentimes invite valid rebuttals but are handled like dead-ends to the discussion. Things like Univac keep cropping up because of an actual concrete underlying issue lacking satisfactory explanations. It doesn't help the situation when DE releases tongue-in-cheek concessions like Cautious Shot as a 10-rank rare mod.
  • "Bug logged," "intended," "low priority," etc. tags for bug reports. I've thoroughly reported several bugs multiple times over many months with zero indication they have been seen or any fixes manifesting in-game. For example, Nekros' Shadows still fail to relocate if you recast after traveling too far away, which is potentially game-breaking for Shield of Shadows builds.

All-in-all these issues can make giving feedback or reporting bugs feel rather pointless, and the impression of futility can encourage low quality posting given the Forums' dual-nature as a social platform. I understand that workload is a concern, which is why I'm suggesting potential automation where it's possible.

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hace 2 horas, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Important pre-Fortuna reading!

But please...Look at the feeback 😞

dont let the feedback die in the jade ligth.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

1. Keep it simple

  • Write simple, directed points about the topic you feel strongly about. Remember to be constructive and to the point.

OK here's a very easy one:

The Tonkor is bugged and is not detonating on impact, regardless of distance

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

I argue that these are considered bugs and not much actual feedback cam be given on these.

At this point they existed for soo long in the game that you cant do anything else but provide feedback on the lack of fixes.

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1 hour ago, SquinkyJunior said:

I think when it was first posted it got pinned. I may be wrong, though. Either way, it's pinned already. 🙂 

Yeah I just updated my original post

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I wonder if the development team could benefit from feedback posts being framed as a user story with potential acceptance criteria they feel are not yet met, structured as Gherkin or a similar BDD type Given -> When -> Then phrasing?

Be quite interesting and helpful to learn a little more about the flow of steps a bug / feature goes through starting at a feedback post here to something implemented into the game.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Important pre-Fortuna reading!

Damage control engage 

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