Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[000l000]

Le 08/03/2019 à 03:03, [DE]Danielle a dit :

1. Keep it simple
Write simple, directed points about the topic you feel strongly about. Remember to be constructive and to the point.

First combos using triggers (controller) are messing up with the new switch mechanics.

Second there are serious issues with Valkyr since melee phase 1, or with melee exalted weapons as a whole. The "aim & shoot" she's using through her Hysteria augment can't work, thus she can't charge anymore.

Third, i don't know what you did but regularly the energy drain from Valkyr 4th becomes completely insane. I think you broke something there cause instead of a 1.2 energy per sec drain she's burning 5 or 6 energy per sec, and i wasn't hitting anything.

[windsofdestruction]

Quick melee back - some melee's combo aren't useful e.g: gauntlet/sparring

Cancel the "eee pause/hold eee" combo, replace charge attack with heavy attack since the block has been freed

make each combo can be cancelled to start another one

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-03-16 at 9:10 PM, DeltaPangaea said:

Here's what I'd do, were I the unquestioned overlord of this debacle. First step, roll back to melee 2.0. Except the directional slams, they can stay.

Then, we institute Quick Shot. In short, when your melee weapon is equipped pressing Quick Melee will fire your secondary weapon in the same quick draw manner as Quick Melee makes a melee attack.

Next step, is going through ALL OF THE STANCES and standardizing them. Forward/neutral combos don't interfere with movement, and back-combos are where the fancier stuff is. Maybe use block combos for CC combos or otherwise fancy ones. Defensive ones maybe, Iunno.

And then and ONLY then, we make Quick Melee use the equipped stance, after we've resolved how horrible a lot of stances are for doing normal things.

And while we're at it somewhere along the line we increase weapon switch speed across the board. And speed up the knockdown and stagger animations. _{Because spoiler alert, almost nobody uses Handspring, and I guarantee you that even LESS use Pain Threshold. And cut out stuff like Trencher knockback forcing a heavy landing. It's annoying.}

This is still the best solution of all time, give back weapon switch, when in ranged mode quick melee button will just do melee, just like it is currently, but when melee is selected quick melee will just quick shot instead. Way more unbiased to ranged and more balanced and does not take away from melee as much as it does currently. All the other melee effects seem allright and good especially diagonal ground slams.

[Issh1n]

we got single handed nikanas, dual handed nikana, dual daggers and dual swords but not dual nikanas?

it ain't space ninja without dual nikanas

[ArtyMcParty]

While I love the update overall (the visuals and the slam attack update), my 2 biggest issues:

1: The removal of Quick Melee has killed polearm usage for me and other players. The twirling "figure 8" quick melee from Bleeding Willow and Shimmering Blight flowed very nicely in combat and did not slow down your movement speed and was my preferred melee method while using guns. My suggestion is to bring back optional quick melee via a keybind (I would not mind 2 keybinds for melee for using 2 different types of attacks). Full combos can also lock your character into an animation unable to do much else until the animation is over. While I love being able to use full combos on stuff like heavy blades and hammers, the polearm combos are very clunky and feel awful to use, but the old polearm quick melee felt extremely nice to use and made you feel like a true ninja.

 

2: Autoblocking is absolutely terrible and needs to go. It breaks the flow of things and keeps you from attacking when you need to. Nobody used blocking anyways, it should either be removed entirely or set back to manual.

 

It's heading in the right direction and feels more powerful to use, but those 2 things have really broken the "flow" of combat overall and made it clunkier to use, I'm aware of the intention for the melee to flow better with gunplay, and in a way it does, but those couple of things have made it worse.

Edited March 18, 2019 by ArtyMcParty

[HyokaChan]

The new generic slam attack sound... sounds off when used with a lot of weapons.

[kapn655321]

What if Reload switched equipped to guns?
Quick melee switched equipped to melee.

Either quick melee or attack could be used once you quick melee. Zoom/Block will block.
Hit Reload to re-equip gun. Zoom/Block will zoom.

[Midarc]

One small bit of feedback.

I do like the new, more targeted ground slam, but am finding it quite difficult to pull off with sword and shield weapons given it seems to just hurl the shield instead.

 

[MBaldelli]

2 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

What if Reload switched equipped to guns?
Quick melee switched equipped to melee.

Because of this I have been able to confirm that the reload animation is broken.  You hear the sound of a rifle reload, but the animation for it jitters and then nothing happens.  

[(PSN)santospizarro]

Granite  and combat for fishing spear 

The features needed for players to feel strong about fisherman  blesses their students with spiritual animals, team skills and add-ons to allow the players and pets to survive ambushed or larger predators and catch that can move fast or have legs, crocodile etc.this can be fun or  become dangerous to sneak up on fish and enemies in the right.

a new faction leader who can repair and enhance the tool laser and harpoon in Cetus there are some rewarding citizens but they don't  teach  or sell  mods, blueprints,

thed mining expert could defensive shields and sensors will add good functions fishing spear order have a good spiritual teaching for playes who wish to further  , other used for fish, introducing ithof other planet afk

 

 

[NEUDRIVER101]

If we're going to be able to do air juggles in the future I have a few suggestions/request. 

1. Allow us to cancel our strings(default combos) by jumping. Additionally I would like to suggest short short+melee would act as a universal launcher command.
For some on day 1 of Melee 2.9998 I reflexively thought to try and launch my enemy for a air combo by pressing a short-hop + melee attack input. I was using the Tatsu at the time. perhaps I was channeling my inner Yorha idk. 

2. Please add air neutral strings(combos). Nothing shorter than two hits, nothing longer than 3. this helps us kill floating enemies more effectively and would work well for air combo follow up..
-Also please allow use to slow fall while using short air strings. Holding aim would work fine for this actually.

On a more general note.
1.Please allow us to roll cancel out of melee attacks. Being able to cancel out of attack swings in various  ways is one of many things that allows for free flowing melee combat to feel powerful by allowing you to always stay fully in control of your offense and evasive options.

2.Please extend the time we have to resume melee combos, mid-combo from after we have shot a gun by 1 to 1.5 secs more than it is currently that would be nice.
Right now the applications for swapping between melee and gun during a combo feels to limited to be useful because it's lack of duration in regards to how long your able to hold your place in a combo string after shooting.

[ENDERWlGGlN]

Hi, supporter since the start.  I've never complained on forums before.  This update made me go play Fallout 76.  It cucks blocking, aim-gliding, channeling, spin attacks, aimed slams, poorly animates weapon swaps, and just feels all around clunky on many particular weapons such as gunblades, whips, anything with Cleaving Whirlwind.  It is detrimental to new players, it babies older users way too hard and overall is the worst thing you've ever released in my opinion; and I played through Law of Retribution a lot to farm those pesky arcanes, and pre-nerf(fix) Jordas Golem.  And also that god-awful Nidus farm mission.  Melee Phase 1 made me leave the game for a week, it sucks that hard.

 

The only thing you should keep from this are new weapon animations(NOT THE SWAPS) and combo/interrupt mechanic.  Props for that.

 

Don't be stubborn just because you've spent a year talking about this update and finally let us put our toes in the water.  We hate the pool, it smells funny, we can see more poo floating in it.  Please no.  Please don't force things we, your playerbase, your source of income grossly dislike.  If you don't believe me, take a poll.  A)keep update B)ditch update.  I guarantee she doesn't float.

[Maxim_M_Payne]

On 2019-03-16 at 8:10 PM, DeltaPangaea said:

Here's what I'd do, were I the unquestioned overlord of this debacle. First step, roll back to melee 2.0. Except the directional slams, they can stay.

Then, we institute Quick Shot. In short, when your melee weapon is equipped pressing Quick Melee will fire your secondary weapon in the same quick draw manner as Quick Melee makes a melee attack.

Next step, is going through ALL OF THE STANCES and standardizing them. Forward/neutral combos don't interfere with movement, and back-combos are where the fancier stuff is. Maybe use block combos for CC combos or otherwise fancy ones. Defensive ones maybe, Iunno.

And then and ONLY then, we make Quick Melee use the equipped stance, after we've resolved how horrible a lot of stances are for doing normal things.

And while we're at it somewhere along the line we increase weapon switch speed across the board. And speed up the knockdown and stagger animations. _{Because spoiler alert, almost nobody uses Handspring, and I guarantee you that even LESS use Pain Threshold. And cut out stuff like Trencher knockback forcing a heavy landing. It's annoying.}

The issue is still one of narrowing players' choice. I quite enjoyed using my ranged weapons completely separated from my melee, and the only change I wanted in any fashion to that toggling setup was a faster swap; NOT the removal of the ability to actually, physically, permanently HOLD my melee in my own frame's hands. I especially did not desire the awkward fusion of weapon slots at present; and adding a shot to replace quick melee when I would really rather have it re-implemented altogether, is genuinely just as janky to ponder. I genuinely liked not shooting while in melee, and I preferred melee being limited to quick attacks for things that closed the gap when using my ranged weapons. I had literally zero issue with the old system other than the oddness of having mods like Twitch, Speed Holster, and Soft Hands for swap speed. If DE wanted to "streamline" combat, they should have just removed those mods and made the instant swap speed that gives you with weapons inherent. 

I respect the hard work they've put into this game and hearing player feedback in the past, and the fact that everyone at Digital Extremes is still working as we speak; but if this is just an early phase of the "improved" melee, than its an alarming sign of tampering with diamonds. The old control setup worked just fine, and it really would make more sense to add the inherent .2 second swap granted by those holster mods for PVE/conclave as a part of the game's programming in the first place; then remove those mods altogether.

I don't want to repeat myself at present by quoting my longest response to this thread; and the busy, hardworking folks at DE are, by and large, better developers than in the US; but the forced implementation of an awkward new mechanics and the complete removal of what was my favorite playstyle just doesn't feel satisfying; not to mention feels completely out of character for developers that have prior listened to our complaints and concerns. 

Or to put my patient, but frustrated, feelings into pictorial form:

You're devs with heart and a willingness to actually listen to the customer (albeit, technically the customer of your cosmetics, since the game is free). I sincerely hope that all you wonderful folks at DE don't suddenly turn away from that prior trend; and insist in keeping this Human Centipede of a new system because a few Dante/Ryu/Bayonetta/etc. wannabes went "but muh devil trigger!" and demanding you vivisect all the prior mechanics.

Also, to raise another point...

While I think the poster of this topic jumped to conclusions too quickly, should have posted this to the main feedback thread instead, and was rude to you as the developers; some of those responding to them were just as impolite. Have a look at the comments posted by the users @(PS4)LoisGordils, @Deadoon, and @Bazynga. These are the sort of "space ninja" you are catering this awkward fusion toward. If you're going to heed the feedback of hotheads who don't ever bother to criticize changes and are willing to respond like this to those that dislike what you've given us so far, you guys at Digital Extremes aren't listening to feedback at all. 

As a Valkyr main that no longer can enjoy himself, I ask, please, just listen. Listen to those actually saying something besides praising the very ground you walk on. You guys are nice people, and you're hardworking developers, programmers, artists, and mixers; but this just is not the way to go, and it isn't satisfying to use for those who used 99% melee prior to this point. I've poured 2,681 hours into this beautiful sci-fi game with intriguing lore, but of late the fun is just gone, and only Nightwave rewards motivate me to play at all. Melee combat doesn't feel like combat at all if that weapon is a side garnish I'm not allowed to directly wield and hold in my hands as long as I feel like. Valkyr doesn't feel like Valkyr.

[TrigrH]

38 minutes ago, ENDERWlGGlN said:

Melee Phase 1 made me leave the game for a week, it sucks that hard.

 I feel the same, i'm itching to play the new content but I literally cant, my entire exalted build doesn't function anymore.

[DeltaPangaea]

3 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

 

-snip-

Well, I DID say step 1 is 'roll back to Melee 2.0', y'know. The Full Equip would be returned, as well as Quick Melee. The idea of Quick Shot is that it's what takes the place of Quick Melee when you ARE Full Melee Mode. That's what I said.

And yes, as I said, CHOICE is the name of the game. I'm glad we agree.

[Deadoon]

20 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

 

While I think the poster of this topic jumped to conclusions too quickly, should have posted this to the main feedback thread instead, and was rude to you as the developers; some of those responding to them were just as impolite. Have a look at the comments posted by the users @(PS4)LoisGordils, @Deadoon, and @Bazynga. These are the sort of "space ninja" you are catering this awkward fusion toward. If you're going to heed the feedback of hotheads who don't ever bother to criticize changes and are willing to respond like this to those that dislike what you've given us so far, you guys at Digital Extremes aren't listening to feedback at all. 

Yes, calling people out and bringing people here with a massive wall of images and spam is a great way to support your argument. Especially when you call me hotheaded when you are doing the same thing here. He posted a thread that had no constructive content and was a repetition of an argument oft claimed.

Do you want a full breakdown of why I called it an "edgy rant"? 

1) Insulting the devs for making changes that were advertised and well received for months in advance, called them ignorant(and more) for making changes that many people were requesting. Ad hominem.

2) Claiming that the whole time he played the game was wasted. He enjoyed it then, so it wasn't wasted. You can't revoke enjoyment. They didn't take anything away from him, he has all that farmed gear and more. Sunk cost fallacy.

3) Claiming that nobody was requesting these changes, that is wrong, there was a huge pre-release support and he apparently missed it. Claiming that they did this for their will alone, which is wrong as well. False argumentum ad populum.

4)Complaining about particle effects, when those are liked by most people(with the exception of a few excessive ones), a tangential rant that they are using to push their view. Unrelated nonsense.

5) It is a "I'm leaving unless you make the changes I want!" Type post. It is an appeal to emotion with a undercut of low value blackmail.

His arguments are that he was not personally informed of these changes, and is complaining that they made changes to a section of a game that he enjoyed a lot. He had no solution provided other than "scrap everything and make no changes".

Edit: Additionally; I know I commited the Fallacy fallacy by making this post.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Deadoon

[SilviaS12]

1 hour ago, Deadoon said:

Yes, calling people out and bringing people here with a massive wall of images and spam is a great way to support your argument. Especially when you call me hotheaded when you are doing the same thing here. He posted a thread that had no constructive content and was a repetition of an argument oft claimed.

Do you want a full breakdown of why I called it an "edgy rant"? 

1) Insulting the devs for making changes that were advertised and well received for months in advance, called them ignorant(and more) for making changes that many people were requesting. Ad hominem.

2) Claiming that the whole time he played the game was wasted. He enjoyed it then, so it wasn't wasted. You can't revoke enjoyment. They didn't take anything away from him, he has all that farmed gear and more. Sunk cost fallacy.

3) Claiming that nobody was requesting these changes, that is wrong, there was a huge pre-release support and he apparently missed it. Claiming that they did this for their will alone, which is wrong as well. False argumentum ad populum.

4)Complaining about particle effects, when those are liked by most people(with the exception of a few excessive ones), a tangential rant that they are using to push their view. Unrelated nonsense.

5) It is a "I'm leaving unless you make the changes I want!" Type post. It is an appeal to emotion with a undercut of low value blackmail.

His arguments are that he was not personally informed of these changes, and is complaining that they made changes to a section of a game that he enjoyed a lot. He had no solution provided other than "scrap everything and make no changes".

Edit: Additionally; I know I commited the Fallacy fallacy by making this post.

its not spam, its not ad hominen (stop watching those youtube vids) give your own feedback and stop trying to discredit others feedback

Edited March 19, 2019 by SilviaS12

[Deadoon]

1 minute ago, SilviaS12 said:

its not spam, its not ad hominen (stop watching those youtube vids) give your own feedback and stop trying to discredit others feedback

1) your post extends the page to be longer than any other.

2) It is ad hominem(insulting others in order to try to discredit them) to call someone ignorant, while displaying your own. I made that opinion without youtube vids, I played with the mechanics and I love them.

Why do I love them?

Instant channeling out of gunplay, melee does not restrict ability to do precise damage nor delay response to lack of enemies in immediate area, responsiveness of weapon switch gives better mix-up potential and greater versatility of playstyle imo. The modified slam attacks and the instant swap(or rather both are active at once) are quite good for controlling movement to my preferences. Others may not share this(as you obviously don't), but that fusion of gunplay and melee is something I really enjoy.

Also, it is funny you are trying to discredit others(by saying I can't form my own opinion) and projecting that I am trying to discredit others.

[DeltaPangaea]

And here we see why it's too late to go back entirely to Melee 2.0.

You gave people a taste DE, now they don't want to let it go. If you keep it how it is, people are gonna stay pissed. If you change it back, people are gonna get pissed because they liked the change.

Give us the ability to choose what we want. Don't make decisions for us and say all other ways are badwrong.

[SilviaS12]

Just now, Deadoon said:

1) your post extends the page to be longer than any other.

2) It is ad hominem(insulting others in order to try to discredit them) to call someone ignorant, while displaying your own. I made that opinion without youtube vids, I played with the mechanics and I love them.

Why do I love them?

Instant channeling out of gunplay, melee does not restrict ability to do precise damage nor delay response to lack of enemies in immediate area, responsiveness of weapon switch gives better mix-up potential and greater versatility of playstyle imo. The modified slam attacks and the instant swap(or rather both are active at once) are quite good for controlling movement to my preferences. Others may not share this(as you obviously don't), but that fusion of gunplay and melee is something I really enjoy.

Also, it is funny you are trying to discredit others(by saying I can't form my own opinion) and projecting that I am trying to discredit others.

1. it clearly does not.

2. I already know what that is.

good luck have fun. 

[csaszar]

Please consider provide a dedicated button to channeling.

Having toggle is not bad but - at least for me and a lot of players - unreliable.

Making a dedicated and rebindable button would solve the problem without hindering the new gun and blade swap mechanics.

Innovative advancement is welcomed but please do it so that its broadening our choices not narrowing them.

[Thaxano]

(i speak french sorry if i made some mistake)

Hello guys good job for your work but something is really anoying to me and i've think about a good and simply way to erase it, here is the problem:

The chaneling system, i found that really anoying to press the 3rd button of my mouse to use the channeling and the "on/off" style of it is anoying too because i have to think about activate and unactivate it when i could just press to activate (and get some regeneration quickly from it) and unpress to be good with my energy.
Yeah it looks like nothing big but, when you get the feeling of just quick activate your canalisation to get instant heal and stay focus on the fight you really got the sensation of giving too much focus on "did i or didn't i unactivate it?" and for the binding, i rather prefer use my 1st button instead of the 3rd one to use something as usefull as the canalisation

I come to this solution:
1) Allow us to binding the channeling on the 1st button of the mouse WITHOUT unbinding the weapon firing and only allow to switch to primary or secondary weapon with F,

2) Allow us to choose the "ON/OFF" mode of the channeling or an automatic mode wich diseable the channeling when you leave the button

 

So after all i don't blame everything, it's a good first step but i would like to have these option to keep a comfortable experience (and maybe keep the comfort of some people too)
Thanks for reading me

Edited March 19, 2019 by Thaxano

[(PSN)santospizarro]

On 2019-03-18 at 8:35 PM, NEUDRIVER101 said:

If we're going to be able to do air juggles in the future I have a few suggestions/request. 

1.

I agree with my friend also want to consider what can be added to the enemies to keep the game challenging the old predictable fiends should have new air support ways escape juggling or lenghty combos with mods that they could drop and stabilizers, KungFu, teleportation in some cases before being depleted of shields or staggered by special weapons , abilities or melee

Problems and fixes for enemies, enemies should perform their own juggles as well to keep players off their teammates,a via charged shots, melee, stagger from explosions or being hit in the noggin, or the back,players who get too close without special defenses, energy or shields. Lowsweeps,etc.game, be added into the fun throwing or slamming players or tossing them in a lake or against a wall or tree smash!!.

beforehand have been an eclipse 🌒 moon causing ghouls and Giants to 🌟....start S#&$!! some heavying catch on resources with it slither it legs in other planets might be my request. To make them over with monster wings and features, not just the fish and rubedo and the infested need proper defensive henchmen, .

Butor escape players tricks while fishing, they might be mutants, monster Hunter is  great  example but the raggle is too repeated,  grineer could detain a    player in jet or slowma who is already in  the air with timing shield depleted and energy taken in as ways tenno are enfeebled or called off smaller enemies , but larger eemies should be taken  into the equations as the daddies if juggle and ragdoll so they make sense, also riven mods, low gravity and grenades and new enemy power ups. unvaconing fierce explosions or traps should cause knockback, there also room for recoil to kickback or blast players against walls and take shaved damage,  an improvement to make incoming fire more serious, armor wears out, players don't always use sound in their tv, calls for damage and bleeding cues, vibration, rumble feedback and new options or VFX.

Edited March 20, 2019 by (PS4)santospizarro

[(PSN)santospizarro]

On 2019-03-19 at 1:09 AM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Je Valkyr.

Keep telling y'all the enemies are wayy too stupid in all games so players turn into gloating trash, because they get Instant gratification or reach maximum gear, level so everything dies in one bullet extraction. matchmaking feeling broken by overpowered players who complete repetitive goals, rare treasure , training and exploration is boring or null, there are no large dinosour or anything large-scale to fear and keep players feeling like heroes instead of self absorbed elites, something needs to change in all planets.

without a doubt you should start by making sure the enemies can dodge and block or perform escape rolls 😂😉, give them new passive strengths, or camouflage, doesn't have to be invisibility, but they give up some challenge, footsteps trigger ambushes and alarms in some areas, many machine guns and robots come too late players can just fly to another area the doors are not ditficult to hack, I would have electrified the floors and shut-off the power to the while quadrant, player have to use flash lights and are on energy collectors detector are seeking that signal to keep casual players going 😂👌, there needs to be monsters or scary things, reason I don't go to Lunaro anymore.., reason u don't go fishing in Mars to get chat going brave. New abilities to equip, or augmentsrivensrewards 

Edited March 20, 2019 by (PS4)santospizarro

[Konachibi]

At this point I feel like this is the Saryn rework all over again.  An enormous outcry of people screaming that this is bad, but DE have their fingers in their ears going "LA LA LA EVERYTHING IS FINE EVERYONE LOVES IT LA LA LA". 

Thing is, this problem isn't going to go away like Saryn's did.  Back then, those of us that loved original Saryn and hated new Saryn could just move to another frame, like I did (and I still hate new Saryn btw!), or they had to pump forma in to Saryn to adjust to the new play style, but this melee system is affecting EVERYONE.  It's ruining a lot of people's play styles, it requires forma on multiple frames AND weapons to adjust, and people aren't going to put up with that crap.

If phase 2 of the melee rework is only a few weeks away, then I guess it's fine for us to wait and see how it combines with phase 1 and make a judgement, but if we're going to be waiting months for it, then for the love of god roll back phase 1 to the original melee system or let us toggle it on or off while we wait, because people do not want to play with a broken system for a prolonged period of time. 

Let us know how long we'll be waiting for more changes, let us know that you have seen the negative outcry for this new melee system, SAY SOMETHING to acknowledge that you are listening to this feedback thread instead of keeping your mouth shut and acting like you're ignoring the massive pile of problems this new system has introduced.  You're a company that prides itself on player feedback and interacting with the community, so break the endless silence you've given in this thread to let people know you are paying attention, otherwise this really will be a repeat of the Saryn rework, where you just ignored the negative feedback of Saryn players, said nothing at all, and left us all bitter and disappointed with no explanation as to why you ignored us.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Konachibi