Arbitrations Revisited

[b4timert]

How about allowing self revive, But only limited to arcane revives. This have its own set of problems.

When you go to select mission it should indicate that only arcane revives is allowed. This might force players to get rank 3 arcanes, it also make it feel more endgame and would hopefully scare off unprepared players to do things that have better risk reward than this mode and let's be honest time/risk reward for this mission generally isn't worth it especially for newer players were getting resources,arcanes,sorties,relic's, mod and primes is better for them. 

Currently arbitration doesn't even tell you, you can't revive. with current system a newish player would go: I unlocked a new game mode play it and die and wonder if its a bug.

a second problem is the drones they should give damage reduction and not immunity. They should also make enemies immune to damage from warframes but not the ability. This way the relic that is vauban might have found its niche mode its good in and might not even need a major rework, other CC frames can also have a use again.

 

[Ham_Grenabe]

Or have it cost a number of revives equal to you rotation. E.g., if you die in rotation A, it costs you 1 revive. If you die again in the next rotation, it costs you two revives. And so forth, ultimately scaling to the point that it costs you all the revives you have just to revive once. At some point, of course, you just can't pay for a revive. You die, and it's over. 

The harder the enemies get, and the longer you stick round, the less leeway you have. 

[Don_T_Shoot]

I don't have a problem with the no revive mechanic we have now.  Just the slow reward cycle.

But if we must have revives did someone already mention self-revives in place of team revives but the debuffs should apply to YOU (not your teammates) and stack?  One can lose a 'tick' of debuff for every X number of kills perhaps.  

Hmm, that should be in the game in general if you ask me.  It creates an incentive to pay attention. 

[DarkACB]

On 2019-04-18 at 12:37 PM, xRufus7x said:

If you fail you can redo the mission. It only locks you out if you complete at least one rotation.

thats still a big problem

[xRufus7x]

1 minute ago, DarkACB said:

thats still a big problem

Not with these changes. If you do get downed after the first rotation you can get revived.

[Maganar]

4 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Did you miss the part where the devs said this was supposed to be an endgame mode for people that want an extra challenge? It's absurd that you even imply that the game caters too much to hardcore tryhards. Warframe is BY FAR the most casual of all looter shooters on the market, and currently the ONLY ONE that doesn't even have difficulty tiers of content. The gameplay is hyper casual and trivial. You have 95%+ of the game to suit your "press one button to win" playstyle, and you want to complain when DE tries to create one single game mode where you may actually have a chance to see high level enemies? I'd have taken your post more seriously if it was not for that nonsensical hyperbole. I have a job and a life same as you do, and I'd love to get some kind of challenge out of this game. But some people just want to press one button every few seconds to avoid afk timer while watching netflix on a second screen and consider this the ideal Warframe experience everyone should adhere to. 

You say this is hyperbole and yet I hear it echoed elsewhere frequently.  Also, you seem to have missed my point, but I apologize that I am long-winded so I may have drowned out the key issues.

To summarize as succinctly as I can, my greatest concerns are 1) the time involved, which has nothing to do with being skilled at the game 2) High level (as in beyond stage 3 sortie) play actually accentuating and bringing to the forefront issues in balance that are normally hidden, and thus stifling and diversity of gameplay (which is the source of replayability in Warframe) because you simply must equip the only things that can deal with imbalanced systems like exponential armor scaling and massive tank disparities in warframes.

Furthermore, you should consider as well that this may all be a moot point.  It is clear DE feels that this game mode was not accessible enough (even though it was meant to exclusive for endgame players) if they are willing to take out its defining features - permadeath.  That, in fact, is something I do NOT think they should take out since it makes this mode too casual!  This is why I recommend the "self-revival only" option as a happy medium that makes it the mode more accessible without taking out the defining feature of eventual permadeath.

You claim to know what DE intended out of Arbitrations, but I'm not sure they'd fully agree.  Arbitrations were meant for endgame players, but that means anyone in the community who can reach endgame and bring skill to the table.  Not just an elite few that want to show their "skill" at being permanently unkillable on +300% power strength Rhino with a Primed Reach zaw that hits drones simply by mashing E (Arbitrations, in fact, don't require much skill either if you are willing to abuse it the way they encourage!).  The fact you bring up about Warframe being one of easiest looter shooters out there is, in fact, one of the reasons I wish people didn't beg DE so hard for "endgame" like this because we end up with these awkward modes that are neither endgame nor fun either.  And why is this?  Because DE isn't used to creating truly challenging experiences, and they struggle now to deliver something we've demanded that they've never tried before.  The result is artificial challenges like Arbitrations drones that go "oh you can't nuke the whole map now!" ...... except I can still take self-buffers with AoE beam weapons and ignore the entire issue by razing the entire map while indestructible with a weapon I don't even have to aim.  With these items and abilities in the game, it is very difficult to create a legitimate challenge, and instead we just end up with modes that aren't fun, and which some people mistake for difficulty (because if few people have the "gut" to take it on, obviously it's because it's hard, right?  Not because it's just.... not fun?)  Warframe is a great game, but it is not well-designed to handle truly challenging gameplay, especially since they gave us a virtual god mode with operators.  That is, in fact, why I wholeheartedly supported permadeath in some shape or form, but that doesn't mean it can't be revisited.  Operator revival makes the entire game easy since it grants infinite, invulnerable rescues.

I hope you understand my stance better now.

3 hours ago, ValariusXT said:

Getting one shotted is normal but there are game mechanics that are set for you not get one shotted. Simple game mechanics that most players simply ignore. For example, taking an Ancient Healer in a sortie level mobile defense, arbi defense, excavations and other defense type missions works wonders (90%dmg reduction buff). Invisible frames even though naturally squishy but considered gods coz they can't kill you if they can't see you. Modding. Modding. Modding. Learn to min-max, don't focus on getting 175% efficiency XD, Mod outside the box. Move a lot. USE YOUR OPERATOR. going in and out of frame and going in void mode make you invulnerable. Lastly, DON'T RELY ON QUICK THINKING to save you and please avoid damage as much as possible. Try to MOVE. Warframe is quite unique coz of it's acrobatics mechanic. You can literally dodge bullets like NEO, learn that.

One more, they're planning on putting shield gating idk when, but they hint on it a while back. That'll prevent anyone from getting one shotted if they finally decide to implement it...hopefully.

I find this a lot more productive as a response to my feedback, because it actually tries to explain to me what strats I might be missing out on and why I might not enjoy the currently promised Arbitration updates.  However @ValariusXT, you might be very surprised to learn more about my playstyle.  You see....

The Ancient Healer specter is probably the most-used high-level item in my gear wheel, and I am an Ivara main (so I'm all about using the never being seen strat as a way to handle high level gameplay). I also believe that I don't use 175% efficiency on any of my mod loadouts at all.  I also useoperators extensively.  For example, I use  Naramon operator dash to create instant finishers on every target in an entire room simultaneously (have you ever seen how huge the radius of Void Dash is with the Naramon dash upgrade?)  Any time I am cornered, I also use operator void mode to dash out of the area completely invulnerably, losing all the enemies. I actually find operators overpowered and wish they were nerfed, but then people would complain "but why do I need to invest in all this focus farming then for such small rewards" which is valid, but gosh operators are broken op.  There is also the question of at what point do we begin playing "Operator" instead of "Warframe" if they are going to be so powerful...... but the fact remains, I use them, yes.  The movement thing is the only one I'm not a huge fan of, but I still do it, because this is Warframe and you're just expected to do it.

In other words, these suggestions mean nothing to me, because I already do all of them.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that Arbitrations 1) are still going to move into oneshot territory for most warframes real soon with this scaling without faster reward rotations without spamming Ancient Healer specters which I find as cheesy as spamming energy pads on a "4 to nuke" warframe (at least until we get shield gating which could fix a lot of these problems!!! - agree on that steadfastly!) and 2) Very few people feel they have the time or just the energy in real life to put up with a game mod that demands players repeatedly go in for such long sessions to get at the highest reward tiers. 

@ValariusXT I'm honestly going to say though: they are perfectly fine to put in faster enemy scaling if 1) rewards are faster and/or 2) shield gating is implemented.  I actually rescind that complaint entirely if they do that.  As you pointed out - and as I in fact know! - there are many answers to avoiding being oneshot.  Faster reward rotations and/or shield gating would be enough to satisfy me that people can either leave before levels get high enough to be unfun for them or that they can avoid instant death with a shield-gate threshold.

[JacketUnHoly]

Honestly reading this post borderline burned me out of Warframe. Just from reading it. Because it somehow missed the things everybody agreed on in every thread of Arbitration feedback, and instead decided to bandaid fix host migrations with the most convoluted system possible.

Permadeath was so not the problem. Host migrations are a problem, yes, but as you have demonstrated time and time again, it is pointless to ask for a solution to those because dedicated servers are just not going to happen. So the only thing we could have realistically hoped for a change on was the absolute monotony of the double-length rotations and slow scaling. This post gives us one without the other, makes the mode more difficult while giving us nothing in return, and is a middle finger to solo players.

Why on Earth was it not the other way around? Scaling twice as fast as normal but with halved rotations? That would have been so fun....

There's a reason why excavation is the most popular game mode, and it's because it's fast and rewarding. Arbitrations are the opposite of that and this change will not help them.

[kaboomerang]

I absolutely hate defection arbitration. Going along the lines of rewards not being balanced across mission types.

Defection rewards needs a buff. 

I literally feel like the people I'm saving in those missions. 

"Mussst..  keep..  running"
Mustt..  keep...  farming!

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Can we have different arbitration drones that gives out different buffs? One that gives out movement speed/ attack speed buffs.

[Akjir]

I don't like the drones, ok. Can live with it. But you have to revive your teammates? I mean, why? This point is one of the best things of this mode. Its nothing wrong with it. You die, you are out. That's ok. I mean, i died a few times, learned, did things better. But this add nothing but toxicity if you can't or don't want to help. What happens when your teammate dies for a good reason? I mean, severel times. Why he should think about it, keeps playing as he want, instead of getting better, because he can come back. And you have to revive or will be a victim of hate speak. Maybe i have no anwser to increase the diversity in playstyles for Arbitrations, besides new modes, but that feels wrong.

[Dariel]

Thats a non revive from me. If you die, you die.

I do not expect to be revived either. This is the closest we have to "git gud" mode.

In fact i would prefer the difficulty cranked right up with starting enemies at lvl100 and no chance to revive.

Git gud bro

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

DE look, the problem with arbitration is their is literally nothing besides those 1-2% chance mods in the entirety of the mission reward tables. If your going to keep the 10 minutes but accelerate the scaling we need actual rewards IN the mission drops.

 

I'm glad there's more for the vitus but we need things to drop in mission as well. More/better rewards with scalimg drop chances the longer you go would go a long way to making people want to play this mode (or even care about its existence). As it is right now the revival is ok, people can ignore it if they genuinly want the perma death to stay. But upping the scaling needs better rewards in mission for us to put up with it.

[RadYogh]

On 2019-04-21 at 12:19 PM, -Temp0- said:

Inaros with Adaptation and life strike work againt any level.

So do frames like Gara.

Theres 1000 and 1 ways not to die in this game, making it even easier for "the only endgame mission type" in the whole game is just pathetic.

1. What's your longest arbitration?

2. What's the highest enemy levels that you've seen?

3. Were those effecient runs?

At 40 excavators done infested randomly instakill garas with 90% resistance and other frames under gara's 2 with 90% resistance. Cats easily instadie with 90% resistance from gara, same happens to drones sometimes. And this happens even with few millions of damage stacked on gara's 2.

The problem with Inaros is that it is completely useless. The only good thing about it - some survivability. It is somewhat useful only on survival missions.... and even there you may get lifesupport problems without nekros or pilfering khora/hydro. And survivals are one of the longest types of endless missions. Even defense with a proper setup is done faster.

The problem of adaptation is that sooner or later you will loose all resistances and you'll get killed with high enough level enemies. And at levels around 300 enemies already do insane amounts of damage that can easily kill Inaros without 90% resistance to everything from adaptation.

And also, if we speak about team game - we can't realy hope to use frames that got some survivability on them, because it is not shared with others and if someone dies - there is no point to continue. In a team game we can use 90% resistance from gara, and she also can protect extractors/defense target, we also can get some resistance from ancients when team remains static and doesn't move around, we can also have some armor, regen and status protection from oberon. Some resistance from trinity (though it's now only 75% so it doesn't realy do much).

Also, speaking of excavation - you have to stick with setups like gara + gara + 2 other frames(and you better have at least 1 nekros) - you have to be mobile if you wanna be effectient. So it's only 90% resistance from gara. And at 40 extractors even against infested gara's resistance doesn't realy help much to protect extractors - you leave it for a few seconds to pickup another energy cell and it suddenly dies, even though it had gara's 2 on it and 4 around it...

Arbitration could have more progression with rewards, which could make long runs somewhat more rewarding (100+ waves defense / 100+ min survival / 40+ extractors excavation / 20+ waves interception)... and this rewards progression could be good for all endless missions in general. Because now there isn't much point in doing the challanging long runs - you don't get anything from it, only loose effeciency.

[DOOMPATRIOT]

En 18/4/2019 a las 13:04, [DE]Connor dijo:

 

The most polarizing of these issues is Arbitrations’ lack of revives.

Consider: I am the type of player that actually likes to still do the +2hrs endless games, even though since the relics kill the T4 community AND therefore are useless, I just like a little bit of high lvl (+200) enemies. 

Also, when they introduced arbitrations they were meant for this types of players.

Really? 

Arbitrations weren't meant for players who die by lvl 60-100 enemies. There are a lot of issues with Arbitrations (*cough host migration, unrewarding, lazy drone mechanics) and you are telling me that the only reason arbitration is unique against other mission types: you only have ONE life, is getting out of this game mode.

This is like if I buy a prime access and you tell me that a syandana is in that bundle and you buy it, and then I figure out that instead of a syandana there is an archwing.

If you ask me I would stay with the no revives mechanic and also add better rewards.

PD: it is just an opinion and if DE really cares about this game-mode they should at least make it so it is rewarding, like putting a bundle of kuva or something like it, and please stay to no revives.

[TmzOS]

Plz, don't remove permadeath and reduce the time consumption.

[czechart]

Don't really like this revival system - it put's responsibility for dying onto another players; and i know it's a coop game, but it can lead to notsocool tensions (especially on public) between squadmates that don't want to risk their lives reviving fallen tenno and said tenno. 
Up until this point it was the player that had to take consequences of their's deaths, so i would suggest to let it still be this way - 
what i propose is a trade of last received rewards for being able to revive oneself - it could even go on and give each player 3 revives as in normal game modes, each costing one more reward - consequences would hurt, but could also give an insensitive to play longer.

[(PSN)nerdlegend]

What sort of debuff

Does debuff hurt your survivable

I can't see this working out in public lobbies with friends maybe. Should be some sort of pay off for players to do it. Problem with this change only forces high survival frames even more. Meta right now for arb is inaros or chroma or gara because how easy / random you can die. Not even worth bringing other frames even with the bonus. Whole mission takes way to long on average. Combined with certain modes being super slow compared to others. Even with revive changes still won't be doing arb because just how long it takes. Drones need to be changed so they are less frustrating and more interesting. Right now they counter way to many frames. Damage immunity but should be less often. 

Good that you decided to review this mode again.   

[Slimspadey101]

My problem with reducing/normalizing the time between rotations: Players who already enjoy Arbitration and want to enjoy the experience for as long as possible will be the ones punished. Public groups WILL LEAVE at 5 minutes if given the opportunity. Forcing players to commit for a longer mission is good for the people who actually enjoy the game mode. This correlation people make between boredom and mission length is non-sense here, because it's not rooted in Arbitration.

My Compromise would be: After the first rotation C reward, all following rotations arrive at the standard rate.

The high level players who are playing Arbitration now probably don't NEED endo, or any other non-fortuna/poe resource in the game, so why do we play? Almost nobody commenting here understands this. Most of the complaints revolve around mission time and rewards. I do care about rewards don't get me wrong I like rewards, but the main thing I want out of the game at this point is to test my might. I can't get the feel for how my build functions in a 5 minute mission or if I'm dead. If the team can't revive me without dying themselves so be it. Today I learned. These changes are for people like me. DE understands the veterans. The ones who really enjoy the game. Yes, the mode could be more dynamic with more interesting challenge mechanics. That's another discussion entirely though as it's not a problem exclusive to Arbitration.

[Slimspadey101]

4 hours ago, (PS4)nerdlegend said:

I can't see this working out in public lobbies with friends maybe. Should be some sort of pay off for players to do it.

The pay off is status. Love from your fellow Tenno. Making tank frames even more valuable is good, because then more players will bring them and there will always be a tanky boi available to revive you. They are essentially adding a new objective. Something else for these immortal frames to engage with. Simultaneously the squishy frames can now enter and test themselves without having to worry about guaranteed perma-death. Sure you may get some nasty people who won't revive you from time to time but I think it's an improvement overall.

[Cicasajt]

where are my archgun ribens!?

[NerfFrame]

I literally dont know why they removed perma death they created arbitrations as an "endgame" mode right why is it catering to casuals ? everything is "too hard" so DE caters to their needs it seems like the revive thing is gonna only hurt people who are good enough to stay alive while casuals just wait to be revived sigh and the rewards are also meh at least give some kuva (doesn't have to be alot) or like a random veiled riven or something 

[Ikusias]

OK just done a defection arbitration with the new changes.

Tl:Dr the changes suck - party member got downed and ragequitted, rest of party was screwed with full load of "resurrection shards" and no way of unloading them thx DE for this [XXXXXXXX] (whoever had this great idea really should experiment on his own skin first next time)

[Avg015]

sorry wrong post

[Kobrakai]

What's wrong with arbitration's:

1. Rotations are far too long, especially defence and survival. It's just boring.
2. Most people I have spoken to don't even know that arbitration's exist. Add a warframe to the vitus essence store or something to advertise it more.

What's good about arbitration's that separates it from other game modes:

1. Permanent death.....

[Purity]

25 vitus for 1 rng gimmick? Yikes. that's brutal