(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Hekkatos]

2 hours ago, SpentCasings said:

Or hell. they have abilities....allow us to mod them with basic mods....

or this.

[Hekkatos]

2 hours ago, Xorsius said:

Instead, maybe the Parazon can kill our Lich temporarily (For that mission we fight them in), but only the right combination will put them down for good.

This. They don't actually come across as Lich's when you are the one dying to them all the time. A parazon kill with the incorrect mods that they resurrect from makes more thematic sense.

[Stonehenge]

Il y a 6 heures, Censium a dit :

Feedback for Liches and related systems;

1) Murmur / Weakness related System.

Disappointed by how this system was implemented. Comparisons made to Shadows Of Mordor sorta fall flat on this aspect.

Murmurs take a little too long to grind out, and is often too repetitive to keep motivation.

What I would like to see;

Keeping with the idea of Shadows of Mordor, Replace the Murmur system with a "Lieutenant" system. For every Lich, are 3 "Sub Liches" each functions like a mini boss. And have one weakness instead of three. Defeating them is what reveals the main Lich's Requiem weakness.

Could help to "work up" the Lich as a big bad. Having to work through subordinates before getting to face the big bad them self I feel would help to make the system feel much more threatening.

Oh yes. Absolutely.

Il y a 6 heures, Censium a dit :

What would be much more realistic;

Up the amount of "Murmur" each Thrall gives (Say 1/4th a requiem). In turn, buff the Thralls to be very dangerous, and demand we change our tactics. Ala Nox, but on steroids.

YES.

Il y a 6 heures, Censium a dit :

2) Requiem Relics and Mods.

I agree with the general consensus of "Much grind" but I feel like this isn't innately a bad thing. Friend and I discussed for a while and came up with a idea for a new(ish) system;

Make Requiem mods repairable with Kuva. After every use they lose a charge. Currently once that mod has been used 3 times, it is useless and is meant to be dissolved into Endo.

Instead of making us re-farm a replacement Requiem mod, allow us to use Kuva to replenish charges. Like reverse upgrading mods.

We still have to farm a full set of Requiem mod, but we have to maintain them in order to keep using them.

Might come back and edit with more ideas or tweaks.

 

Very smart ideas here too.

[Temragon]

Please:

Require an interact execute to spawn the Lich from the Larva.

Pin elemental % to Lich level on Kuva weapons. Too many layers of RNG.

[Tubsie]

Just going to leave this suggestion here. Not going to list all the reasons why this system in it's current state is annoying and simply not worth of anyone's time who's played the game long enough to have majority of the weapons and warframes, since I am sure many others have listed those reasons. (No it's not the layers of RNG, since some white-knights etc. always complain when any difficulty is added and this is what you get instead... layers and layers of RNG), so here's a suggestion instead:

How about giving us another method (or even better, a direct method) to summon the kuva lich instead of killing his/her thralls? We've certainly killed enough of those in order to get the murmurs revealed. How about a direct node on a planet where to go and just confront them?

Also to me, the worst downside of this is the reward: Basically you get a weapon with SLIGHTLY different stats (like a different firing mode) and 25-50% of a single elemental on the weapon...... really? I can have an Ogris (which I already own) with a single element that has 1/3 of a dual stat mod's strength? Yeah, I rather use my time to something else + save forma. Let the lich steal the resources, don't have a desperate need for any of them. Aside from getting your stolen resources back from the lich, there's no reward for me in chasing after them.

[Endrogue]

I had an Ivara neuroptics stolen and it wasn't returned when I converted the lich responsible, at least from what i could see, it wasn't among the restored items in the mission complete screen. I'm not very mad about this as I already have Ivara but others might find this rather pesky.

[Genoscythe]

I have so far downed 10 liches and there are some glaring issues, mostly obvious ones. Gonna take a break now until DE patches the rough edges. Right now Liches don't feel much like a Nemesis but like a mob that is harder to grind out for a cool firearm.

Do not punish players for what they're supposed to do:

Kuva liches instantly kill you when you get the wrong combination, which is wildly unnecessary and the opposite of motivating, because you're supposed to trial and error. It's like dealing damage to players for picking up resources. It's OK to have that finisher move, but if it would simply take a big percentage of the current Warframes HP a player would know that he needs to keep going.

Enable universal coop:

Right now people can only get their lich to spawn if they have the same node occupied, if anyone joins a friend on a node he himself does not have under lich influence, his lich won't spawn. This totally kills coop, I'm here to play with my firends who usually come out of their caves once an update drops, instead it's everyone for himself or play public games to get matched with people on the same node.

Give us an option to reduce the grind by further upping difficulty:

Murmur grinding and enraging the lich is very slow. There should be a way to further taunt him and raise lich and enemy level as a consequence to get done faster with it. It's supposed to be endgame content, right? Designating certain nodes as high value targets with heavily beefed up enemies and a 100% chance to draw out the lich would be welcome.

Another possibility is to give an additive 10% bonus on how much progress a single murmur gives per lich converted, and an additive 10% bonus (up to a max of maybe 200%) of lich rage per lich killed. Like this, the initial fights are still long hunts, but once our opertor becomes a more experienced lich hunter, they become more effective at tracking and eliminating Liches.

Don't make Lich weapons RNG (for first acquisitions):

With this I mean which weapon the lich carries, not the element and converted damage percentage. After having the 4th Lich with a karak my patience is at an end. Having to grind out normal nodes in high level is extremely tiresome if the reward is unattractive and not worth it anymore. Helper liches are a joke and don't contribute anything to my missions, any nidus specter is better. Please consider making Liches give a player weapons he does not have yet and then, once all are acquired, rolling in the duplicates.

Enable Liches during Void fissures, Kuva siphons etc.:

Grinding normal nodes with no resource rewards only to find a set amount of enemies is unmotivating. If we could do the more productive things on the side this would sweeten the deal A LOT. Special interactions with Kuva Siphons and Void Fissures (Corrupted Kuva Liches!) could also be pretty fun.

Make Liches more of an active nuisance:

Fighting your Lich is an active decision: If someone does Lich nodes and levels up their lich, they decided to engage. Making our enemy actually hunt us down like we hunt them would make everything feel a bit less like a heavily grind-gated weapon acquisition.

[Tem_Raekut]

As it stands, converted Kuva Liches are far too inconsistent in their appearances, and when they do show up are often quite weak. There's currently no reason to convert one outside of emotional attachment as the benefits from converting are so inconsistent and pitiful that the weapon gained from vanquishing is significantly better. I think it would be a good solution to allow converted Kuva Liches to be equipped as Companions that you can mod with Warframe mods. While it won't have the utility of a Kavat, Kubrow, or Sentinel, it would be a much more effective fighter, and a nice tradeoff could be it being able to revive you. I think this would allow for a more consistent and effective use that would make converting a Lich have advantages over killing it.

[AngelWednesday]

I am liking the whole Lich thing so far.

It will certainly keep people going up till Christmas with all the RNG variations.

My only thing would be could our Lich's have their own boss node on the star map that obviously moves round the areas it influences. 

Also as the Lich grows stronger the boss node evolves from (maybe) a repainted Geneer Gallion to something more impressive. Probably using the assets from the Tenocon demo.

After all he/she/they are supposed to be growing in power and this would reflect this rather well.

So if we think we have our Parazon configured correctly we can just go to The Lair Of The Lich King/Queen and go finish it once and for all in a ship wide showdown.

I think that is one of the things missing.

Also to boost the rewards for doing this mission quest maybe we should have a Lich Summon item and the Lich stays till the end of the mission we are on or dies.

I do think the Lich companion idea is a brilliant one that was suggested above.

But maybe not as configurable as a warframe but similar.

I do agree with posts around the forum that doing missions in Lich controlled areas does feel a bit like doing regular missions but with higher level enemies.

Also the gain for the work involved may need more tweaks and incentives.

But it's at a baby stage and hasn't matured yet so we shall see what happens.

Keep calm and Lich on!! 😁💖

Oh and before I forget can the Lich have a separate symbol on the map and part of the path finding symbols to his thralls. 

It makes it a bit confusing when running away but still needing all those murmurs. 

Thanks!! 😁💖

Edited November 4, 2019 by AngelWednesday
Forgot an additional

[.Grineer_Slayer.]

How am I supposed to kill the lich, if the relics i need to get the requiems needed to kill it, keep getting stolen???

[OwOprime]

Please do something about duplicate weapons, my second lich rolled the same archwing weapon as my first lich.   I am not going to spend 6 hours grinding out a worthless weapon, Instead I am just not going to play for a while because this is just way too much rng.

 

There is so much rng grinding to do to even get to killing your first Lich, even after getting past that RNG grind you have people getting the same weapon multiple times in a row?  Pass, I pass on a system like that.

[Muntyness]

I'm gonna thrown in another complaint about grinding for murmurs. 10 or maybe 15 kills per murmer would be fine. Not the nearly 55 kills we need to do right now. as it stands having to do 20-40 missions, depending on how many thralls spawn, just to find out what to use is killing any enjoyment of facing the liches.

Also, what's up with the grineer hack speed for the thing that goes around the nodes? It's been massively slowed down with the new update, while corpus hacking has stayed the same as it used to be.

[KenthNisshoku]

Please remove the random spawning of the Kuva Larvling in random grineer missions and put them in Kuva Siphon Missions. I do not  want to make another Lich and create another by accident. Also they ruin my stealth and alert all enemies in the entire mission.

[IamLoco]

I cannot believe how much I HATE this update.

Yesterday this duckhead stole a riven mod from me. Today I did everything to finally kill this lich (hopefully my last one I have to do!)

I got all the mods. I got the right combination. I finally managed to take him down!

And then I went to him ..... to kill him. And .... LAG.

When I finally saw the 2 options (convert on the left and something else on the right) the DEFENSE MISSION WAS FINISHED and the summary screen covered my options and the game returned me to the main menu.

Here is the screenshot. You can see the last attempt was successful - and he is still alive.

(and yes, you are actually looking at a magnetic damage kuva kraken. Nelson *haha*)

 

 

Conclusion: If you defeat your lich, let it disolve straight away. After you´ve returned to your orbiter, make the choice. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by IamLoco

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

9 hours ago, KokoroWish said:

Aside from my previous post about the grind, the only real disappointment I have with the system is that you actually have the Larvalings pointed out to you in mission. It would have been more satisfying if  you were to just be mowing through some grunts and BZZART uh oh, you just hit a Kuva infused minion, whoops! Having them pointed out makes them feel like an objective rather than an event that happens to you.

Also there really needs to be more than one of them, or ones from other factions to make the system feel more lively.

I haved yet to see a single Larvling pointed out to me in a map after having the Kuva Guardians post their words that ne has been presented/spawned.  I'd say this is broken.

[swinginman]

Having killed 5 Kuva Liches so far, I really enjoy the system. I'm excited to see how the system develops & changes over the coming years, and how it is seen by the community. 

The biggest suggestion I have has to do with farming thralls. I'm not 100% sure if the current number of thralls needed to unlock a requiem murmur is appropriate, but that aside I feel like the missions could be more rewarding/immersive. I think the best way to do with would be to allow players to enter a Kuva Siphons/Flood in Lich controlled territories. The way it currently works is you need to pick one or the other if the Kuva Fortress is near a planet with Lich influence. I think it makes a lot of sense for the Kuva Liches to be defending Kuva Siphons, and it would make those missions a lot more fun. Both Kuva Siphon & Lich thrall missions feel somewhat out of place, and random. But combining them makes perfect sense, and would be a very rewarding & fun challenge for players. Please consider allowing Lich missions to be done in tandem with Kuva Siphons/Floods.

[Hazylina]

Kuva Liches so far are a great but flawed Mechanic in my Opinion.

1.
The Pure method of acquiring one is not optimal in the least, it is far too easy to accidently kill the Larvling with Warframes like Volt, Mesa, Saryn or any warframe that deals a ton of damage to multiple targets in a near instant manner. What if you dont want another Kuvalitch at all, or if you dont want to even get your first one since you dislike the mechanic? So far the only viable solution is to skip 20+ grineer missions entirely which makes you unable to visit half the star chart.

So far every Gamesystem is introduced in some way but totally Opt-In and there are some people i know how dont want to do anything with Fortuna so they dont play it at all and thats fine. It shouldnt be forced to Rank yourself up to max there anyway, people should enjoy Warframe the way they wanna enjoy it. Some dislike certain stuff and thats okay. But the pure fact that you accidently can kill the Larvling by playing a normal Grineer Defense works against this kind of freedom. I like that it is Opt-In in the first place since you need to kill it, but its not nearly optimal.

It would help if we need to Mercy Kill them in order to let them become a Litch, just let them be stuck at minimal HP while beeing invincible for 10 seconds. That should give you enough time to Mercy kill them and if you dont wanna do it they would just drop down and die like any other Enemy without creating a Lich. That way you as a player have the choice of taking one or not, since they can be a total bother if you just wanna farm stuff and even if you kill one the next one is knocking on your doorstep almost instantly in the next mission.

2.
Its a bit sad to be honest that the Liches only spawn when you visit their Territory. They should spawn in any mission, ready to kill you of course. They are your Archnemesis so why shouldnt they and with the 1. Point in mind you could remove the threat without it coming back a while if you want. It would give you a more pressing threat since they could invade you any time and maybe even steal your stuff when they defeat you.

3.
A failed Requiem attempt should not end in your immediate Death, How about doing it this way: If you beat them up without trying it they should just go away and come back in another Mission to try again, but you dont get any clue on their Requiem Runes. If it fails they will try to finish you off but all they will achieve is crippling your Warframe till the end of the Mission, even through Revives. That way it wont be totally unfair that he just Instakills you and it will also add a bit of spice especially into longer Missions when you are Cursed with a sort of Kuva Curse reaching from slower Movement Speed to losing stats like Power Strength or even Max Health.

The Curse could be random or it could depend on the Kuvalich, maybe even providing some sort of hidden clue that helps you getting the real Killphrase a bit faster if you are clever. At the end of the Mission you get rid of it but for the rest of your  30 min Survival you will be debuffed. It could also be even more complex if your Warframe kinda gets a Kuvascar from it which makes the next Debuff even Worse. You lose these Kuvascars when you defeat your Lich in any way but getting to much puts you at a greater risk which in turn brings you to a simple solution: Switching your Warframe to someone without a Kuvascar. It would still be challenging like its supposed to be but it would be a bit fairer and interesting.

Hope i could help with my Feedback for the Kuva Lich System!
PS: If you find mistakes in here feel free to correct me, dear Stranger.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Hazylina
I found two really bad grammar mistakes and i am picky

[(PSN)BloodyHell]

I’m a console pleb so I haven’t had the chance to have played (Or I guess ‘suffered’ based on some of the feedback :/) The Old Blood update yet, but I’ve been reading a lot of the feedback for the Kuva Lich system and wanted to posit an idea, based on a couple of recurring complaints and areas the system is lacking. Apologies in advance if I've made any mistakes misunderstanding how the system currently works.

From what I’ve been reading, apart from a randomly spawning AI assist, there’s currently no other benefit to converting your Lich. So I’ve thought of another perk to acquiring them; what if you could send out your converted Lich to temporarily prevent the influence of your current Kuva Lich? One of the major issues I’ve seen is people actively wanting to avoid certain nodes like final Sorties because a Kuva Lich will end up stealing peoples rivens, or feeling like they’ve wasted their resource booster purchase because there’s no point in efficiently farming oxium or tellurium at the moment, or being set back to square one when farming requiem relics and they end up being stolen too (Although tbf I know the latter is getting fixed in a later update). While I’m a fan of the whole stealing system in concept, and don’t want to see it completely nerfed (I guess I’m weird in that I do want to feel salty when my Lich steals something I wanted/needed), it does suck that the RNG can potentially screw you out of the time you’ve invested getting those rewards/resources with absolutely zero way of countering it. 

In its simplest form, your convert Lich/es could function similarly to Resource Extractors, where you select them on the Star Chart and designate them to a planet/node, and for a temporary time you can engage with missions without your items being stolen. Now what would need to be figured out is how exactly this works in practice and how to balance it in order to not completely negate the stealing system. For example, it could be once per mission and then once you’ve completed a node your convert Lich is on a cooldown (6, 12, 24 hours etc. whatever is best for balance) before they can be used again, or they could be assigned for a period of time protecting all nodes on a planet and then, like extractors, your Lich returns but has a percentage of their health taken away. In fact the latter would not only prevent you from constantly spamming them but introduce the risk (Or even opportunity) of permanently losing your convert Lich. What’s more, you now have an incentive to actually acquire more Liches, as more convert Liches means more to assign to planets to negate the active Liches influence. There's a lot of other minor variables that could be explored with this as well. Maybe your convert Liches rank changes it's effectiveness of preventing what resources get stolen? Or how long it can ward off your active Kuva Lich? If your convert dies to them your Kuva Lich might inherit more abilities/gear?

I feel like this and Censium’s idea for Thralltenants would go a long way in getting closer to the nemesis system in SoM/SoW. All the other elements from it are here, but what truly made the nemesis system shine was the hierarchy system and the dynamic ways you could pit the Uruk and Olog-Hai against eachother. While everything else is mostly there, right now those key components I feel are what’s missing. 

[Abacrius]

Alrighty, forgive me for what is gonna be a rambling monstrosity, but I need to get all of this out as concisely as possible.

Parazon:

- overall the Parazon feels nice, gives the Tenno a certain flair. Having all the new Parazon mods in a pack feels sketchy when they fall into the two camps of "absolutely situational" or "Absolutely Necessary" depending on the mod

- Parazon Mercy prompts, if they are random, should make the target "invulnerable" to other damage, a la Kuva Thralls, because it is a chore to proc them otherwise
- Hacking animations are occasionally bugged, as are Mercies (especially vs Thralls; maybe an anti-softlock feature?)

Requiem Mods/Requiem Relics:

- Reduce the layers of grind from 4ish to 1-2 at most, or make the mods a permanent addition. If grinding the mods out through Requiem relics is absolutely necessary from a game design perspective, at least make them a permanent addition like every other mod in the game.

- Remove the ability to purchase Radiant R.relics/Requiem Mods from the Market. Given their compounded grind nature this feels like an utter slap in the face, and is a move I would expect out of EA, Blizzard-Activision, Ubisoft, or similar P2W entities that Digital Extremes has proven itself to be better than in the past (never forget the Kubrow pelt changer)
- If they absolutely must remain in the market, decouple them from the cosmetic bundle, or at least decouple the cosmetics from the mods.
-Kuva Fissures are actually quite fun for the effort they require
- Replace Weapon Exilus and Ayatan Stars in the relic drops with something that has a greater system impact, i.e. prebuilt Forma or Catalyst/Reactor blueprints. Requiem Fissures are, as of right now, Warframe's endgame alongside Kuva Liches; bloating the drop list from these relics is detrimental to both the experience and the effort they require

Kuva Liches: Biggest section, warning you now.
- Overall, Liches need to have their power and immunity to entire game subsystems toned down. The relative power it takes to kill a Lich (I am MR 26, I spend most of my in-game time with an MR 25, an MR 18 Founder, an MR 12, and an MR 10 who has completed all the prerequisites for the Lich) is disproportionate to the power level you can be at to generate one (the MR 10 simply does not have the raw gear, mod assets, and familiarity with the game's systems to keep up with consistent level 90-125 content)
- Thralls as a mechanic feel fine. I would recommend taking the necessary Thrall kills for a single Requiem Murmur down from 50ish (total of 150 for the full cipher) down to 45 or 30 (total of 90-135 depending on changed requirements). Potentially add a mechanic where gaining Murmur progress after the three are unlocked will find you the first correct Requiem Mod in the sequence.
- As liches stand now, they have a baked-in force-loss mechanic in the form of discovering the Requiem Mod order; this is a form of punishment for engaging with the system, and if not removed should at least be seriously toned down.
- Once a lich's full Requiem Mod list is found, their disposition should remain at Fuming at minimum to ensure a consistent spawn (you are already in the last leg of the hunt; having to bring his rage meter back up after every mod order attempt shouldn't be an hour-long slog)
- Regarding subsystem immunity: Status effect immunity + high armor and health + CC immunity = oppressively annoying enemy that you must kill in order to play the game normally, that demands a small handful of builds to actually kill (speaking from experience, it took a 4-man team of Iron Skin Rhino Primes and Umbral Mods/Adaptation/Negation Swarm Inaroses to reliably keep a lich from instantly killing anyone in arm's reach, made worse by the inability to strip armor. If a Lich is going to keep this sort of immunity, I propose a compromise; each Lich randomly gets 1 to 2 of these immunities, determined by their level or how they died. It provokes thought without being an overt guessing game, and prevents a lich spawn from becoming a mindless slog that highlights the biggest issues with Warframe's damage and armor scaling.

Right now, this is all I have. I welcome feedback, additions, and proper criticism in the replies.

[dbugz]

TO DE:

Hi.

I casually play Warframe solo and the upkeep of this new Kuva Lich systems seems too hands-on and intrusive from the feedback that I've been reading, especially the "reward tax" system where the Lich will randomly steal any of the drops and/or rewards that you earned in any mission (of ANY type) when playing in a planet that has their influence.

What I would like to get a response from DE is whether the reward tax system has a cap where if the Lich has stolen too many of your rewards that it will no longer steal any further?

The reason for this question are as follows:

• What is the maximum level that a Kuva Lich can attain? (Some have said that the higher the level, the more drops / rewards are stolen)
• How many, or what percentage, of the drops and/or rewards from a mission are stolen as "reward tax"?
• If I play a few hours a day and have my drops / rewards stolen, BUT I put off from killing said iteration of Lich for more than a few months:
  • Will it reach a level that I will be barely able to kill it when playing solo? (If the Lich has no level cap)
  • Will I be able to get back all of the drops / rewards stolen as reward tax - especially if it's worth more than a few months of play?

These are some of the questions that I would like to get some definitive answers from DE. At this point, I no longer feel any incentive to play further as this new system has no option to opt-out (eidolons i can choose not to do, orb mothers i can choose not to do - why not this?). This system looks like a skewed FOMO mechanic - "if you don't play it, then that rare reward you tediously grinded for a good number of sessions which was stolen - you won't get it back unless you play this other game type that we have."

Don't get me wrong. I have played this game for a good number of hours, and have actually willingly spent and purchased more than a few Prime Access packs as I do enjoy the game and would like to support DE. The recent Melee update feels refreshing. However, this new Lich and reward tax gameplay system feels too heavy-handed and excessively grindy.

Edited November 4, 2019 by dbugz

[Ramflare]

Let us equip converted Liches in the companion slot? That'd be so cool...

At the moment converting them is massively underwhelming, they'll occasionally help you out but they're not very useful and we can't really see them that often unless we die on purpose. If we're losing out on a unique weapon we should have an equal reward for conversion. A lich companion would definitely do that.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

The "Stampede" ability some kuva liches have hits players too far ahead of the charging lich. This results in being knocked down before the lich reaches you and can make dodges very difficult to pull off. (this problem also affects the grineer nox's version of the stampede ability)

[doominator10]

23 minutes ago, dbugz said:

TO DE:

Hi.

--Snip

You can opt out of it. Just don't kill the Kuva Larva. Same system as juggernauts, When the lights start blinking, hold off for a second until the kuva guardians same something and the larva is gone.

[Ramflare]

30 minutes ago, Abacrius said:

- Remove the ability to purchase Radiant R.relics/Requiem Mods from the Market. Given their compounded grind nature this feels like an utter slap in the face, and is a move I would expect out of EA, Blizzard-Activision, Ubisoft, or similar P2W entities that Digital Extremes has proven itself to be better than in the past (never forget the Kubrow pelt changer)

- If they absolutely must remain in the market, decouple them from the cosmetic bundle, or at least decouple the cosmetics from the mods.

Relic packs have always been available in the market, this is fine according to DE's philosophy of "pay to speed up". You still have to crack them open anyway. I don't think the comparison to "p2w entities" works at all here.

[dbugz]

Just now, doominator10 said:

You can opt out of it. Just don't kill the Kuva Larva. Same system as juggernauts, When the lights start blinking, hold off for a second until the kuva guardians same something and the larva is gone.

Oh, interesting regarding the opt-out. I didn't notice that one. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

I'm still curious though about DE's feedback regarding the other questions I've posted.