(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Schnoofles]

Please add a method for determining the correct order of requiems other than trial and error.

Forcing a loss condition on the player and expecting them to brute force the solution via trial and error is not great game design, both from a time requirement and "how it feels to the player" perspective. In a game like Warframe that is all about appealing to the power fantasy it's absolutely counter to the overall rest of the game. This was cool 30 years ago on the NES and in the arcade era because it allowed for artifically lengthening a game that could otherwise be completed in an hour or less. Not so much when we are already spending inordinate amounts of time to just complete the hourly, daily and weekly bounties, alerts, arbitrations, sorties, nightwave challenges, syndicate standing while also progressing story missions, unlocking weapons and frames we have yet to acquire etc etc etc. I don't mind some amount of grinding necessary to discover the solution to the puzzle, but there really needs to be a method. At least respect the player's time investment when they've manually learned all the requiems from farming murmurs.

 

I also have a problem with it from a lore perspective. In one fell swoop this mechanic takes the allegedly near god-like and mythical tenno/warframes and reduces them to punching bags for what was up until recently some insignificant low ranking grineer guinea pigs. A tiny bit of kuva turns them into virtually unstoppable monsters that can trivially kill the "void demons", despite said void demons themselves potentially being infused with kuva and supposedly harnessing some of the most destructive forces the world has ever seen. Even if I accepted that without the correct requiems the liches would be continuously revived, having them be straight up unkillable is completely lore breaking. Why isn't a single lich just walking into a corpus or infested stronghold, killing every living and robotic thing there and then proceeding to the next stronghold? And then the next and the one after that and singlehandedly wiping out all enemy life in the solar system? A lich should have no problem destroying a razorback armada on its own. It could casually stroll into a corpus testing facility and rip apart ambulas prototypes, zanuka hunter squads and more. Amalgams, the ropalolyst etc should be no obstacle and no challenge to even the weakest of liches.

 

Anyway, lore aside, as a player I obviously dislike losing, but I accept that the possibility of losing is a threat that should always be there. A victory should be earned, after all. I'll take on a really hard challenge and enjoy figuring out how to overcome it and that's cool. But forcing me to lose? Literally not even having it possible to win except through sheer luck by stumbling blindly upon information (the correct requiem order) that cannot be learned naturally? The game expecting me to intentionally commit suicide repeatedly before I'm allowed to win? I'm sorry, but that's not good game design. It feels horrible, it's a kick in the nuts to me as a player, to the character I play and it ruins the experience. I refuse to accept this. I will straight up not engage or ever try to kill liches for as long as this mechanic is in play. This will potentially cause me to miss out on content, miss out on weapons and mastery rank advances and any rewards that may be added to the lich drop tables. Don't tell the players to kill themselves as a method of progression because I am never going to do that.

 

On a sidenote, the lich spawns for one player blocking spawns for other players further amplifies this. I'm not going to commit suicide just to help advance the spawns for other player, so this also forces me to either diminish the experience for all other players by blocking their spawns when doing lich missions or I'm forced to not play co-op and stick to single player mode any time I'm doing anything lich related. Having to tell friends and clan mates that "I'm sorry, I can't play with you for the next several hours because I'm gonna do this lich thing and I don't want to ruin it for you" is no bueno.

 

Suggestion:  Allow players to "kill" liches with the parazon if they don't have all the requiems or the requiems are in the wrong order, but instead revive the lich after the mission and have the player try again. Lich can still level up as normal from having learned how to more effectively fight back against the tenno/warframes, but also has to 'die' once. Consider further ramping up of growth of the lich's strength as they level up. Power fantasy is preserved, but so is it for the liches who remain a formidable threat as they keep growing in power and can attack the players at random during missions.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Schnoofles

[Javat.K]

About converted Lichs,

Currently converting the Lichs is not very helpful, they only appear when you die in a mission and only last 1 or 2 minutes, after that they disappear. They don't even resurrect you.
This is not comparable with obtaining a powerful weapon and 4k mastery points. This is why most players prefer to kill the Lich.

What I propose is: First, when the Lich appears to help you, provide you with a buff depending on the strength of the Lich. For example, if the strength of the Lich is toxin, it will give you a buff of 90% resistance to toxin (separate adaptation) during the presence of the Lich. The Lich must be strong enough to kill enemies on his own.

Second, the way to call or invoke the Lich. From our list of converted Lichs (separated from those killed, by tabs) we can choose a maximum of 5 of all we have.

Third: We will have a new object, a beacon like that of the stalker, in which when used during a mission, 1 of the 5 Liches chosen will be invoked, at random. This beacon would have a delay of 15 minutes for reuse. This beacon could be manufactured with kuva among other materials.

Fourth and most important: Agreement with the Lich. When we convert to a Lich, it is indebted to us, right? Well, we can forgive his debt.
How? When we have an active Lich that we are not interested in killing or converting to hunt another Lich, we can agree with one of our converted Lich's to eliminate our active Lich. If he succeeds, the converted Lich will be free and we can no longer choose it to help us. And we can hunt a new Lich.
But be careful, if it is a weak Lich, he could die trying, so we will lose the converted Lich and continue with the current Lich but with an advantage! Our Lich before dying managed to find out one of the hidden requiem mod.

This system forces us both to kill and to convert Lichs to have an army of Lichs for our service.

If we run out of converted Lichs we will not have the possibility to cancel the active Lich
I think it would be a fair system for players to cancel Lichs that we are not interested in.

[MirageKnight]

Attempting a jab with the Parazon without the right mod sequence or any mods should not result in the player getting K.O.'d, nor should it automatically level up the Lich. Instead, it has the Lich initiate an emergency teleport escape so it can fight another day.

In addition, the Lich should only be able to level up if it defeats the player (or even other players) in an actual fight. We level our weapons and 'Frames by defeating enemies. It should be no different with a Lich. When the Lich defeats a player, it teleports away and levels up. When it levels up, it only reclaims the nodes you previously cleared but doesn't spread further.

I also want to see an option introduced in which we can "buy off" a Lich with a "peace offering", with the Lich leaving the player alone.

 

[seventhwalker]

Thanks for the continuous hotfixes DE, its nice to know that you are listening and taking into consideration player feedback: 
Feedback for 26.06.1



KUVA LITCHES

-Duplicated weapons are definitely still an issue, especially when its a multi-layered grind which already has a RNG in place for damage values. Grind upon grind with RNG upon RNG isn't a fun gameplay loop, its a boring chore. Please don't keep heading in that direction, DE. Some just want to get them for the MR, and not keep grinding them for the best stat possible. As told by numerous players, after getting several duplicates; it really turns off players (even some of us MR27s slogging KL to 28) from the whole game in general -- especially if this is the precedent of how you'll make new content 'last' from now on.

Possible solution: Allow trading of unleveled kuva weapons to unleveled kuva weapons only. That way, you could keep it out of the platinum market and a player must have put in the effort to slog through getting one themselves. This can be done by creating another set in the trading window, much like items and mods are separate -- with a check if both items are indeed kuva weapons.

-Litch appearance after a failed attempt sometimes need way too many missions in between. Especially after you already completed the murmur clues and have the learned of the correct mod sequence. The worst I had was 7-8 missions after getting him to 4 and learning of the proper sequence the hard way (killing tons of thralls along the way). Tried solo so no one else's thralls with spawn, or in groups. Suggest that their bar completely don't fall off to 'uninterested' from 'fuming' in a failed attempt, especially during lvl 4-5, and after you already figured out the order. It just feels like yet another tedious content padding. 

[AreeSoothsayer]

Parazon Defiled mods.

 

Why not let 4 of the same kind of Mod, like Ris, be combined to form one intact Ris with all 3 charges?

[Enkou]

I just noticed that Void Traces aren't blacklisted from Lich steals. Can we also have those not stolen?

[Drasiel]

The addition of the Requiem Relics has added a daily at worst and weekly at best drain on my trace stores. I burn out farming traces every prime access. I have come to loathe farming traces and having nearly completed the farm for atlas prime access I turn to start exploring the liches and realize I need hundreds of more traces and don't even want make the attempt. The following is my biggest complaints

• there's a lot of daily and weekly activities already: Nightwave, sorties, arbitrations,ayatan misison, clem misison, eso (for focus), Tridolons Syndicate, simaris, and now you are adding murmurs and trace farming. I'm starting to run out of play time to designate to warframe activities because they are often in competition with each other.
• Trace farming is the worst for this because there is only one source: Void fissures. I spent 45 minutes with a booster to get enough traces for 5 rad relics and the thought of grinding out more is so unpalatable I'd rather not play.
  • in reality the only usable ranks of relics are intact for the commons or Radiant for the rare and uncommon. The other two ranks don't matter because they don't offer anything of value to player they are just lesser variants of radiant. Maybe the middle options should be made into a single relic that increases the chance for the uncommon items more than the common and rare.
  • Please, please give us alternate options for trace farming, you can't do anything else while you farm them because you are locked to fissure missions. Put them in syndicates, put them in nightwave, christ even give them to baro so I can at least double farm them with relic expenditure.

[Duskham]

I fint the Kuva Lich system is very cool and has a lot of potential but i think killing the lich is still too easy, add a QTE event to the 3 kill phases, reuse the assets from the shawzin and do a quick mini game or a drawing mini game, something that can be fast and needs skill

[AreeSoothsayer]

There are still people refusing to fight the lich and lose, blocking any further liches from invading the mission.

I am getting full of salt and ire at these people who are screwing us over.

 

Remove the 1 Lich at a time limit please.

Edited November 8, 2019 by AreeSoothsayer

[IamLoco]

DE, do you have any plans to add more weapons as Kuva versions?

I know, more RNG and even a greater pool of weapons that would dillute the chances to get the one you want, but then, more options and boy, would I love to see a Kuva Rubico or a Kuva Fulmin. (I know these won´t happen as they are not Greneer weapons)

Edited November 8, 2019 by IamLoco

[Askorti]

Simple suggestion: Make it possible to affect what weapon the Lich uses. If not when the player generates it, then when one fights it. For example, each attempt at stabbing a Lich with a parazon should also be an opportunity for making it to change its weapon. Make it worthwhile to make the attempts. It should of course be fully optional, so that someone who had the luck of the lich spawning with a good weapon doesn't lose it.

[Imadead]

I got 3 kuva brakks in a row and i have killed 5 liches total.

How many would i need to collect all 13 weapons!!!

I`ll pass playing this mode until we`re able to discard a lich or be able to change his weapon....NOT WITH PLATINUM!

Edited November 8, 2019 by Imadead
reasons

[Ezy11]

I noticed in a mission i was doing that while i was switching between my weapons i ended up being able to see my warframe with the parazon even thou it was not hacking anything.

i was wondering what button to press to be able to equip my parazon in a mission again.

anyone know?

[Fran_Bow_Dagenhart]

As clients in matchmaking, when your Lich spawns after someone else's Lich despawns, there is an extremely high chance of your Lich possessing a different requiem mod sequence that are against already known sequences, failing the takedown.

Edit: despite the failed attempt caused by above bug despawns the Lich and kills you, the takedown attempt does NOT get tracked.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Fran_Bow_Dagenhart

[80think08]

Am 5.11.2019 um 10:04 schrieb 80think08:

-Unlocking the 3 murmurs takes too long regarding repetiveness.

-Unlocking a murmur in-mission wont count any further killed Thralls to the next murmur, which makes this run up from this point meaningless to you and thus unrewarding and less fun.

-The grind behind getting the necessary mods to kill the Kuva Lich is far too great. 

I believe however that neither the reward pool nor the rarity in the droptable are the main problems but rather the accessiblity to get these relics.

Unlocking murmurs is still a very repetitive task, as the only way to get these is by killing the thralls and with rare encounters assassinating your Kuva Lich.
Even though, the amount of murmurs has been reduced, the amount of murmurs needed to spawn your Kuva Lich seems to be unchanged. Therefore the actual grind has not decreased but simply shifted to a point where you need to kill thralls for no reward.
Many people in public seem to be frustrated and are very salty with the amount of time needed to get one single weapon, that may not even be of their choice.

Thats a problem.

I think some mechanics in the Old Blood lack purpose, which could be tweaked to tackle the above mentioned problems: for example the lack of diversity obtaining murmurs.

- Clearing a node rewards you with a certain amount of murmurs, thus adjusting the mission type effectiveness and player preferences.

- Clearing a sector rewards you with a certain amount of murmurs, giving a reason to fully clear out a sector of a Kuva Lich influence. 

The actual amount of murmurs is a balancing act with the goal to enable different ways of playing.
Currently long lasting missions like Survival are preffered, as Thralls and Kuva Liches seem to spawn on a time-based intervall. Therefore short mission types (like Capture, Exterminate and so on) are currently underdogs, if not played slowly with some back-tracking, as Thralls seem to spawn not only in front but in general proximity.

Current mechanics that need purpose:

- Kuva Lich stealing rewards: "...optimizing the local workforce" 

-> After killing/ converting a Lich you get the loot back with an addtional interest.
-> After killing/ converting a Lich you get addtional Loot depending on which Sector it occupied.

- Converting a Kuva Lich: 

Currently getting an allied Lich randomly spawned for once, is of no benefits for the time invested to get up to this choice.
In any situation it is more beneficial to simply kill your lich and get his weapon, even if you have already one of the same type. Im quite sure your statistics will tell the same. Especially with the upcoming patch, that will let you discard your Lich to the clan dojo, further increasing your motivation to kill it, to obtain the prefered weapon instead of converting it.

-> Converted Kuva Lich spawns infinitively (may charged based), may is permanent, may adjustable (can be toggled on/off somehow). 
-> Converted Kuva Liche becomes a Companion fighting alongside you.

 

 

 

 

[GalaxianZero]

Are there any plans to improve the usefulness of converted Lich's?

If I start a new Lich and it has a duplicate weapon that's less powerful than I already have then I will convert them. I know people keep guessing that these may be more useful when Empyrean releases but it's still an unknown at this point. For now we have a Lich that very infrequently spawns and when it does it trots around for 60 seconds shooting in the general direction of enemies and might kill one or two before leaving.

Where is the use of it's special powers and abilities like when I was fighting it originally? They only seem to use the Weapon I didn't claim and no powers are used at all. Again the AI within Warframe is basic at best. I don't expect an NPC to complete the level for me but as a Lich is supposedly a Warframes equal, it would be great if it was a real spectacle of power for the minute that it was present.

Hopefully DE is planning to improve the AI of converted Lich's to at least give us a show of power when they do join us on missions.

[Javat.K]

hace 1 minuto, GalaxianZero dijo:

Are there any plans to improve the usefulness of converted Lich's?

If I start a new Lich and it has a duplicate weapon that's less powerful than I already have then I will convert them. I know people keep guessing that these may be more useful when Empyrean releases but it's still an unknown at this point. For now we have a Lich that very infrequently spawns and when it does it trots around for 60 seconds shooting in the general direction of enemies and might kill one or two before leaving.

Where is the use of it's special powers and abilities like when I was fighting it originally? They only seem to use the Weapon I didn't claim and no powers are used at all. Again the AI within Warframe is basic at best. I don't expect an NPC to complete the level for me but as a Lich is supposedly a Warframes equal, it would be great if it was a real spectacle of power for the minute that it was present.

Hopefully DE is planning to improve the AI of converted Lich's to at least give us a show of power when they do join us on missions.

 

hace 2 horas, Imadead dijo:

I got 3 kuva brakks in a row and i have killed 5 liches total.

How many would i need to collect all 13 weapons!!!

I`ll pass playing this mode until we`re able to discard a lich or be able to change his weapon....NOT WITH PLATINUM!

This is my idea, take a look

 

[ixidron92]

Very successful the whole old blood update. So far finding a group of people to play with is becoming an impossible task thanks to the entire obnoxiousness of the system. Not only do we have massive timegates thanks to the thrall limit per mission we also have RNG on top of RNG for an underwhelming reward and not to mention the massive hatred between those who refuse to kill the lich and those who want their lich to spawn. So congratulations, you've copied a great system from another games that was basically moronproof and managed to make everyone miserable, somehow.

[JazzberryJam]

Mercy kill feedback:

The mechanic is nice, especially paired with some of the more interesting parazon mods related to mercy kills.

The problem i've encountered so far is that enemies die way too fast, so i never really get to activate mercy kills. Of course, this is fixed quite well with thralls and kuva liches requiring mercy kills to vanquish, but i feel like there should be something for regular enemies too.

Perhaps once an enemy can be mercy killed, he enters a "finish him!" state where he is stunned at 0 health for like 1 second, giving you time to activate mercy kill. And if you don't, he just dies on his own.

[sorcer3r]

As others have already said: Kuva Lich controlled missions look and feel just like normal missions (well ok, they are normal missions ;) )

 

A smalll improvement could be: just use the visual sortie radiation effect -> change it to red -> apply the "red radiation" effect to all kuva lich missions.

Edited November 8, 2019 by sorcer3r

[DesertEagle1280]

Doing a valence transfer guns can up the ele % - that would make getting repeat crap rolls more stomachable - eg get 25% and 27% seers, the combined form keeps the forma/exilus progress, and goes to 35% ele instead of 25 or 27, that way getting duplicates that are equally crap (or maybe even worse variants) isn't so much of a waste of player time. Then say you get another 28% seer, combine that, and your "master" weapon goes to 40%, etc.  This would allow player agency to improve their weapon mitigating some of the RNG frustration, keep duplicate liches relevant longer giving the whole system longevity, and maintain the covert/kill decision relevancy for longer as well.

Otherwise, even with murmurs going faster, it's hard to feel good about grinding for a turd when you get low % elemental rolls.  Even saying "Hey you can combine a 25% with a 27% and get... a 27%.  Wow, really?  What a huge improvement, THAT makes it worth the grind.

Also, what if we also took a maxed disposition weapon out of the spawn rotation?  Like say you get 5 cold seers, by combining them you wind up working up to a 60% or whatever max is cold seer.  From that point on, you have a 0% chance to spawn a lich with a cold seer (could still proc rad seer or toxic, etc by choosing to use a different frame for that element).  In terms of lore, maybe say the lich knows through kuva-magic of it's brethrens failure to off you with the cold seer, so they refuse to try again with a weapon that has proven a failure.

This would encourage people to keep playing even when they keep getting the same, because not only will it always make their existing one better (whether higher or lower % roll), but it also gives a finite amount of repetition where by completing the weapon you guarantee other drops.  This will help with the frustration of people getting copies of weapons instead of new ones to a degree.

[mr_razorite]

15 hours ago, Azvalk said:

For those who desperately want a way to get rid of a useless lich, there is this to take into account:
Clip of Steve's stream

The functionality is not there yet, because it is related to the dojo, and therefore probably to empyrean.
Remember that the update of the liches is here because it has been separated from empyrean.
Everything will be in a much better state when empyrean will complete the system.

There was also a clip from pablos stream where he said this trading wouldn't be able to happen until you convert said lich. So this ends up making the whole point of trading to get rid of a lich you dont like pretty pointless. 

[Cerikus]

(I have already posted this as a standalone topic earlier, but I am reposting it here as well, because I would like more people to see this, beacause I spent some time on this idea and I would like DE to see this... so sorry in advance for reposting 😇)

I did a post about the liches system few days ago. Since then, the hotfixes changed the update in my opinion from good to very good. I am still kinda annoyed about some stuff and I still think that this update uses around 25% of it's potential, but hopefully the number will be rising more soon.

For now I have one huge suggestion. The only endgame that the game had until now were obviously the rivens along with the kuva grind. The fact is that the kuva is something we all want (both begginers and veterans). Please, please, please. Use this fact to change the lich system to something great by rewarding us with kuva more while EVERYTHING concerning liches would be done with kuva.

What do I mean?

1) Refining the Requiem relics with kuva.

Why? It makes more sense lore-wise and refining them with traces destroys any progress in the rest of the game. I am currently out of traces all the time and I cannot do radshares of anything. This basically halted my ability to play T1-T4 fissures radshares, which is a shame, bacause I would like to play them, but as long as I play liches, I will not be doing that. That will eventually pull me away from the lich system and that's a problem.

2) Upgrade Kuva weapons post rank 30 with kuva.

Why? Wasting formas in the weapons is kinda pointless. The weapons don't need 5 formas and even though we now have the valence transfer (to save formas, potatos, etc.), being able to use kuva to push the weapon further would make more sense lore-wise as well as it would not deplete us of our formas. Or maybe create a new kuva forma built from kuva? (Droped in the requiem relics INSTEAD of stars.) Currently it's 65 formas to max out all kuva weapons. I would rather be building other type of forma or just using kuva directly.

3) Start doing "Tenno reinforcements" as you did in the old days, but KUVA.

Drop one or two more kuva variant weapons to liches every few weeks, so we want to return to kuva lich system after getting all weapons. This will create something that is getting close to sustainable end game. We can easily be farming this forever.

4) Create some system for "kuva enchanting" the parazon.

It would basically be something in the sense of refining relics, but you could invest kuva in your parazon so if you kill a larvling with it you have a bigger chance at a specific kuva weapons. (The chance increase should be low and the kuva price should be high, so it helps, but it does not negates the rng. Rng is obviously important here, otherwise we would burn through the weapons too fast.) 

 

DE... Do these simple things and the Old Blood will become a great update. You very smartly used old content as a background for the liches system, but in the current state it stops our progress in the rest of the game. These changes would create an amazing kuva loop that would be sustainable and fun. You would get kuva, spend kuva, get kuva, kill lich, get weapon, level it up, use kuva, use the weapon to get more kuva to get better chance at new weapons... Repeat. Amazing. Old Blood 10/10. Please at least think about it DE, I beg you.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Cerikus

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

On 2019-11-07 at 11:18 AM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

So this is what I thought how the kuva lich system was going to play:

Alert like quest mission, accept or declines the mission (opt in), activate random lich, activates lich stealing on that player and lich influenced nodes for that player. Lich is located in a special assassination node unque to that player, the lich will grow in power and influence if that player doesn't kill them within a certain time limit (or fails the mission). That Player can invite friends to hunt or request a public assist to exterminate thrall nodes or assassinate the lich (additional opt in for more players). Weapon benefit is applied only from main player and only that player may kill the the lich. This removes the rng of lich birthing and appearance of kuva liches.

Finding the requiem mods and such could stay relatively the same... and maybe as an additional reward for helping another player with lich missions.

This what I initially thought how the kuva system was going to work, as an rng mini-quest.

 

you this mini-quest method ^^ would allow players to dismiss duplicate liches too.

[b4timert]

How you create a lich should to be a mission, something like.

The steel meridian have sent a distress call go help them. Then you learn it a grineer trap. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by b4timert
changed sentence: original had a duel meaning.