I feel too paranoid to actually rebuild any of my weapons into the new system.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

You buffed the crit chance mods super hard, right after the whole "We made a mistake with spin to win so we're nerfing it into the dirt, several years after the fact." and I can't help but think you're just going to do the exact same thing again.  Let players reforma dozens of weapons, make whole new builds, learn new damage calculations and then just nerf it all down to nothing, rework the system to "what was actually intended" and then hand out another measly 3 forma while changing everything up.

This is the only game I've played or even heard of that requires this much work to build out a weapon.  You have to level a weapon several times all the way to 30, spending a forma which takes a full day to make, each time.  There's a lot of effort and time involved in building a weapon out, only to have the build thrown out the window and replaced with a new meta, and I really don't want to do that all again to multiple weapons only to have it come crashing down around me, because honestly that feels like complete BS.

How long do I have until you're done changing everything up, so I can work within a system that isn't in constant flux?  After you get it set, how long do I have before you tear it all down and make me start over?  Some people might love you forcing a hard reset on their gear.  I know I and several others absolutely hate it.  I don't want to put in all this time, work and material just for you to flush it down the drain when you decide that what you built wasn't what you "intended" again.

You either need to get it right, polish it, and set it in stone, or you need to change how much work is required to forma things, because a lot of us aren't going to keep doing this.  You're going to keep bleeding players if you keep making them run the same grind over that they've already done and call it "content".

[Melanholic7]

very important questions, yeah. Wasting efforts and resources is the worst feeling in any game. Like my ripped 2k plat on rivens just cause slide attacks “rework” (they just killed it). Very motivating =/

[iGnome21]

Yep i'm very upset too with that lame rework and the slap in the face of only getting 3 formas to compensate for all the build broken by the changes.

We should be compensated for every weapon that has a build problem to squeeze the mods since that godawful patch.

Simplest thing : allow us to reset a weapon on demand with a button to its initial state, recover the potato and all built formas. Levelling it again is not much a hassle, but the resources put into these hundreds of weapons affected are not negligeable.

I'm considering to drop the game after years because of this bad consideration for our efforts, and also that lich system that is a no-go for all the crappy rng involved and random freaking stats on them.

[Traumtulpe]

Judging by the past, I'd say further changes to melee weapons will not happen within the next year (or possible ever).

[KIREEK]

Well, i feel ya, right now i can't remmeber for what i used my melee weapons, i give it a look and they look so outdated that my only option is to have a couple that i might use if i need to, i really can't bother rebuilding everything, that's my sugestion to you, pick a couple melee weapons and just focus on those.

I just hope something of that magnitude doesn't come to secondary and primary weapons as that would make the game a mess, you would essentially login just to try and make sense of what happened and fix everything.

[DrBorris]

Counterpoint: Would you rather have DE never move forward?

 

Yes, it does suck to have your toys broken, but it is impossible for DE to improve systems without breaking something. Personally I would much rather have the game be in an overall better place than have the status quo be maintained. I'm not saying that this opinion is "right", but it is important to look at all sides to an action. If you want to keep the status quo you have to be willing to accept that things won't get better.

In addition, when DE breaks or shifts the meta it creates new content in a way. You had fun with your old toys, but now you can make new goals, find new playstyles. If I could just rest on one loadout for the rest of Warframe's lifetime I would personally get pretty bored. Shaking things up gives me things to do.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

Counterpoint: Would you rather have DE never move forward?

 

Yes, it does suck to have your toys broken, but it is impossible for DE to improve systems without breaking something. Personally I would much rather have the game be in an overall better place than have the status quo be maintained. I'm not saying that this opinion is "right", but it is important to look at all sides to an action. If you want to keep the status quo you have to be willing to accept that things won't get better.

In addition, when DE breaks or shifts the meta it creates new content in a way. You had fun with your old toys, but now you can make new goals, find new playstyles. If I could just rest on one loadout for the rest of Warframe's lifetime I would personally get pretty bored. Shaking things up gives me things to do.

You can't have a system that requires this much work to build out a weapon that is supposed to be modular, and then completely change the system up so that the modularity no longer works and has to be redone.  You have to put so many polarities on things in order to fit a maximized build that the mod system is no longer flexible.  When they go and change up the meta, you now have to redo your polarities, because despite being modular, there is no flexibility in the system so only a handful of builds fit.  Forma is a stupid idea to begin with, but it's really showing it's flaws now.

[DrBorris]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

You can't have a system that requires this much work to build out a weapon that is supposed to be modular, and then completely change the system up so that the modularity no longer works and has to be redone.  You have to put so many polarities on things in order to fit a maximized build that the mod system is no longer flexible.  When they go and change up the meta, you now have to redo your polarities, because despite being modular, there is no flexibility in the system so only a handful of builds fit.  Forma is a stupid idea to begin with, but it's really showing it's flaws now.

So... what is DE supposed to do? Throw in the towel and just say "eh, this is bad, but we can't change it"?

I want Warframe to be the best game it can be, and if that means I get hit every so often so be it.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, DrBorris said:

So... what is DE supposed to do? Throw in the towel and just say "eh, this is bad, but we can't change it"?

I want Warframe to be the best game it can be, and if that means I get hit every so often so be it.

I completely agree.

But...DE could have compensated players somewhat better than they did.  

 

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

You either need to get it right, polish it, and set it in stone, or you need to change how much work is required to forma things, because a lot of us aren't going to keep doing this.  You're going to keep bleeding players if you keep making them run the same grind over that they've already done and call it "content".

You are playing a game in active development. You shouldn't play it if you are afraid of that fact.

Edited November 21, 2019 by peterc3

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

You are playing a game in active development. You shouldn't play it if you are afraid of that fact.

 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

You are playing a game in active development. You shouldn't play it if you are afraid of that fact.

A game that's in active development shouldn't have mechanics where building out a weapon with polarities makes the weapon more inflexible to future builds, thus negating the work done in building out the weapon, and screwing over anyone that builds to what is current.  If the system will be changing, then the mechanics behind the modularity should reflect that, rather than hinder it.

You're just one of those "this isn't the game for you, DE can do no wrong" type of people though, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to you.  It's not going to do any good.

 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

So... what is DE supposed to do? Throw in the towel and just say "eh, this is bad, but we can't change it"?

I want Warframe to be the best game it can be, and if that means I get hit every so often so be it.

Change the system that creates inflexibility the more work you put into it?  If you level up a weapon half a dozen times you should be able to put whatever you want on it.  it should be future proof.  You've spent the time and the resources.  So again, like I said:  They either need to stop messing with the mechanics, since the polarity system is so inflexible, or they need to fix the polarity system to work with future changes.  That's not a hard concept.

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

Seems crooked 

[Miyabi-sama]

14 часов назад, Melanholic7 сказал:

very important questions, yeah. Wasting efforts and resources is the worst feeling in any game. Like my ripped 2k plat on rivens just cause slide attacks “rework” (they just killed it). Very motivating =/

Don't worry, you can still wipe the floor, slide attack haven't gone really!

[Steel_Rook]

14 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

This is the only game I've played or even heard of that requires this much work to build out a weapon.  You have to level a weapon several times all the way to 30, spending a forma which takes a full day to make, each time.  There's a lot of effort and time involved in building a weapon out, only to have the build thrown out the window and replaced with a new meta, and I really don't want to do that all again to multiple weapons only to have it come crashing down around me, because honestly that feels like complete BS.

Without wishing to be rude: you must not have played a lot of Live Service games, then. Something like The Division went through numerous ground-up redesigns of key systems, and that tended to require players to re-earn randomly generated loot. My own gloves lost their +flat damage to LMGs, with the stat completely re-rolled to something else, and all I could get back was +small percentage damage to LMGs. Destiny 2 is arguably even worse, as turning a new armour piece into a Masterwork requires something in the neighbourhood of 150 enhancement cores, and you can usually get about 6 a day + 6 a week easily. Hell, Payday 2 dumped its entire Skill System and replaced it with a new one, voiding everyone's build then radically reclassified all weapons into a new breakdown of categories. That last one's happened multiple times, in fact.

Every single MMO and Live Service out there which lasts for more than a year or two will receive major, sweeping changes which - yes - will often void work put into progression. That's the nature of the beast. I'd argue that Warframe needs far more of these kinds of sweeping changes. The game is what? Seven years old? And yet it still suffers from issues dating back to Launch. Nobody likes nerfs and major changes, but these sorts of things are necessary not just to keep the game alive but to enable any kind of future updates. Warframe's combat system is already a mess of stacking multipliers so high that balance is outright impossible. Sooner or later we're going to have to lose all the multiplicative stacking, and DE seem to be easing into this with every change they make - as they should be.

[Gaxxian]

hace 13 horas, DrBorris dijo:

So... what is DE supposed to do? Throw in the towel and just say "eh, this is bad, but we can't change it"?

I want Warframe to be the best game it can be, and if that means I get hit every so often so be it.

No, but maybe reset our weapons and give us back ALL the formas used would be a start.

For now, im just playing without using melee (unequiping my melee weapons). If this system stay here for too long, i will just learn to play without melee.

And i DE applies something like that into primaries, i will just quit WF and thats all.

[Vox_Preliator]

19 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

No, but maybe reset our weapons and give us back ALL the formas used would be a start.

For now, im just playing without using melee (unequiping my melee weapons). If this system stay here for too long, i will just learn to play without melee.

And i DE applies something like that into primaries, i will just quit WF and thats all.

Frankly, good builds haven't changed much.  The super high-end specific stuff, yeah, but I've found most of my forma recently has been to new weapons that are now effective, while my old stuff fits new builds fairly well.  Blood rush is still good, Primed Reach is good on more things, Condition Overload is still among the most powerful mods, and overall melee is more effective than before.  Except for Glaives, they're not in a particularly good place right now.

If this update ruined your playstyle, it's worth looking at exactly what your playstyle is, why it is no longer effective, and whether leaving that playstyle as-is would be healthy for both the game and yourself as a player. 

[Gaxxian]

hace 14 minutos, Vox_Preliator dijo:

Frankly, good builds haven't changed much.  The super high-end specific stuff, yeah, but I've found most of my forma recently has been to new weapons that are now effective, while my old stuff fits new builds fairly well.  Blood rush is still good, Primed Reach is good on more things, Condition Overload is still among the most powerful mods, and overall melee is more effective than before.  Except for Glaives, they're not in a particularly good place right now.

If this update ruined your playstyle, it's worth looking at exactly what your playstyle is, why it is no longer effective, and whether leaving that playstyle as-is would be healthy for both the game and yourself as a player. 

I didnt said anything about good or bad builds, about playstyles, etc.

You are reading what u want.

Im just saying that DE should give us back all formas (not just a meagre 3-pack) when they do a system rebuild. And that they should do changes faster, as right now u dont know how to forma as the full melee system is open to changes.

If u want to put formas into melee weapons, do it. But maybe in one week all your polarities turns into trash and you lose even more formas and time.

[BLI7Z]

If you enjoy Warframe you should just ride the tides. Warframe at it's core isn't really changing, they are just making some balances so you can build your melee's in more diverse ways without actually losing damage output if compared to what the meta was before. 

Why should CO and BR be a must for every build? Now it isn't like that, now you can choose between that and many other mods. You can build around the new heavy attacks if you wish, or you can keep the old CO/BR builds. No more slide huge bonuses... it's actually better, being a spinner 2 win myself, I am glad it is finally over. 

And in any case, what's wrong about destroying the meta? What's wrong about people having to figure out a new meta, or in any case, there not being a meta at all because there are a lot of effective combinations?

Also, melee never needed SO MUCH formas to have effective builds, 2 or 3 formas and you got it because of the bonus from the stance. 4 or 5 for some extreme cases with a Riven... but do you have Rivens for all the melees you would like to build around?

For example... if you put Umbra formas in weapons or warframes, will you really expect to get them back if they change or nerf them? Nerfs are usually deserved, and changes are usually in a better direction or in balance's sake. 

If you build around the meta and used those popular builds, polarized your weapons to fit them... you already got all the enjoyment and reward from that broken meta thing. Why is it so hard to work towards a new build and change some polarities? 

I think it's good that Warframe's meta isn't something really static, there's a lot of balance to be made, and Warframe will always have new stuff, so there will ALWAYS be changes. 

Personally, I think it is good that there's a need of rethinking my builds and revisiting them, regrinding some formas and affinity, etc. 

If you liked so much a weapon, and it wasn't just because they were meta or had meta builds, you should enjoy reformaing them. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by BLI7Z

[kapn655321]

Basic rule of thumb..

If it's the, "Only and most clear option, that is better than all else,"
then it will still be on the chopping block at some point, when the context to endeavor for that change arrives.
We don't have hundreds of weapons so, "only one/one way," is ever supposed to be right and good.
If it's the only thing that goes to lvl 400+, then that's where the axe drops next.
Far as I can tell from so many years here.

Miraculously, with keeping this in mind, I have never once had one of my best weapons nerfed.

[ADDpillz]

22 hours ago, Melanholic7 said:

very important questions, yeah. Wasting efforts and resources is the worst feeling in any game. Like my ripped 2k plat on rivens just cause slide attacks “rework” (they just killed it). Very motivating =/

I lost about 15k across 8 melee rivens.  Not only did they nerf slide crit (honestly I could live with it being re-balanced), but they completely made the roll irrelevant (why add 150% CC on just slide attacks when I can add 220% CC on all attacks including slide?). They need to change the mod to +150 CD on slide attacks. Its not a game changer but at least some of us that invested in rivens with these rolls wont be completely screwed.

 

[Hobie-wan]

Protip: Don't spend $$$ on rivens. Play what you find, trade rivens for other rivens, or trade for smaller amounts.

[Melanholic7]

1 час назад, Hobie-wan сказал:

Protip: Don't spend $$$ on rivens. Play what you find, trade rivens for other rivens, or trade for smaller amounts.

well, they added rivens and kuva as ultimate target for grind and farm at the endgame. If this part of the game is always broken or isnt working properly - maybe just delete it?? thats just stupid “just dont use game mechanic, u know” , maybe fix it then?

[AtsiaZ]

8 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

I didnt said anything about good or bad builds, about playstyles, etc.

You are reading what u want.

Im just saying that DE should give us back all formas (not just a meagre 3-pack) when they do a system rebuild. And that they should do changes faster, as right now u dont know how to forma as the full melee system is open to changes.

If u want to put formas into melee weapons, do it. But maybe in one week all your polarities turns into trash and you lose even more formas and time.

Why? DE isn't obligated in the first place to do anything of the sort when they make big system changes. We at least got something, and most forma-ed builds didn't change at all for the most part.