Blink nerf and railjack archwing gameplay.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

Why? Blink was always intended to be usable while invisible.

 

That's the general tactic. Just a prediction of course. If there's no reason to use A because of B; Nerf B  🙃

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

If the ripline was faster, had more momentum (or had its momentum increase as it pulls), and could be cancelled before you reached the point it was attached to, then I would enjoy it, because it would essentially be the Just Cause ripline (which is a lot of fun to use, has skill involved, and can be used for great momentum). Instead, it is slow, brings you to a near halt when you get to the end of it, and cannot be cancelled early. It feels way too clunky to use for movement, and can't even target enemies properly in sky-wing (or at least I haven't been able to get it to yank a guy into the air for me).

[Unimira]

Since they gave blink (even with a cooldown) to all Archwings I'd argue there was no need to change Itzal at all, from a balance PoV I always thought Amesha was more broken. So far I didn't use Amesha in plains/valis because fast travel was more important than (near) immortality.

[Xzorn]

39 minutes ago, Unimira said:

Since they gave blink (even with a cooldown) to all Archwings I'd argue there was no need to change Itzal at all, from a balance PoV I always thought Amesha was more broken. So far I didn't use Amesha in plains/valis because fast travel was more important than (near) immortality.

 

It was never really about balance. There was nothing to balance and they still intend to do a full rework apparently.
It was just players moving quicker than they wanted through open worlds making their K-Drives look even more dumb of an idea.

For combat Itzal and Amesha are equally broken in different ways. The others are just trash by comparison; Blink or no Blink.

[JackFraust]

drawing from a hat (only way I can think of how they came to this idea). they couldn't think of an original ability to replace Blink so they decided to throw a bunch of warframe's first abilities into a hat and picked one at random. it's such a useless ability; grab an enemy and launch it across the map or latch onto a surface and move a little faster. guess what happens when you use this ability during arch-wing missions! you either run into every fkn wall or rock OR throw an enemy and have it return a few seconds later. this is a strictly plains/vallis ability only and even then, rarely anyone is gonna use this (90-95% of the time being people habitually pressing it to blink).

so are they now gonna destroy Itzal's Cosmic Crush because people prioritize it because Arch-Wings have S#&$ty "Vacuum" properties? are they finally gonna make Arch-Sentinels that can use a vacuum-like mod and essentially make Itzal overall useless because it has lower damage output compared to Elytron and Odonata??

i don't know what they could've made to replace blink, but replacing it with rip line was lazy and overall pointless.

[Smilomaniac]

On 2019-11-27 at 6:40 PM, Teridax68 said:

Yes, it absolutely was: putting aside how it made Itzal the only Archwing worth having in open levels, it also completely threw away the vastness of the Plains and Vallis by having the player skip pretty much instantly through all of the terrain, all of the enemy camps, all of the ground-level encounters, from one bounty objective to the next. Even with Blink nerfed, Archwing still does that by letting the player make a rapid beeline while flying over anything that could make travelling from point A to B more interesting. The current implementation may not be ideal (In particular, Itzal's compensatory 1 is a joke), but it's not like there was no problem at all.

I've adressed most of what you said, but what you're arguing is that people *should* be slowed down, which is just objectively a terrible argument.

It would make sense if you spent all of a couple of hours in that content ever, but since we have to re-visit it to do the engagement drag aka Nightwave, it just means dragging out repetitive content.

I'm sure it comes as a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't actually like the open world areas, especially the bounties.
Anything that enables people to get through it as fast as possible is desirable - Whatever you think makes the terrain "interesting" or the camps in any way worth going through is entirely in your own mind. I never got the fish-scans done and I never will, same for the ghoul drops and a bunch of other things like the Orb Vallis music scans, not because I don't want them for the collection, but because I will never go there unless I have to.

It's also why people do the pipe-grind for the k-board rep and why pugs will flip their lids unless you have a meta setup for eidolon hunts. People want to get through the grinds as fast as possible. The game just isn't so interesting to stop and smell the flowers.

In other words, you can use your K-Board at a snail's pace and enjoy the scenery as much as you want, but if you tell me that me blinking to avoid it is a problem, then you've got some serious entitlement issues.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

On 2019-11-27 at 4:39 PM, Gaxxian said:

They just needed to add the Titania controls into the archwing. They were very similar, but with way less drag and without auto-forward movement when you pressed the sprint (so, a much better control).

But noooo, they made a terrible system from scratch. No 3D feeling, no drag, bland, boring and simple... the worst of the worst. And then, applied it into Titania and destroyed the frame too. Great.

About Blink, changes were totally unnecesary. Balance? What balance? With Empyrean everybody would have a lot of reasons to use different AW. So, why they destroyed itzal?

Titania controls are way better. Wtf are you talking about. 

I can finally use her without crashing everytime there's a sharp turn due to completely borked momentum. Playing Titania now feels like I can move as freely as my other frames, instead of feeling like I have gimped mobility.

As for Itzal nerf, I always used Odonata and Odonata Prime. It was the most well rounded archwing for me. The addition of Blink on it makes it now a viable choice in Vallis and Eidolon hunting instead of being "the inferior Itzal".

All I read in this thread is poor excuse from players that abused a mechanic for years. It's exactly the same as Maiming Strike and Condition Overload nerf. It. Was. Broken.

It invalidated any reason to use other Archwing. Can you even NAME the others Archwing besides Itzal and Odonata ? Do you even know how many are there ? That's how relevant they were.

Blink is a buff to all other Archwings and that's a good thing.

[PatternistSlave]

Probably am the problem.  Archwing still controls much better for me and the blink thing I'm sure needed to be changed for empyreon.

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

I still believe that they did this because people perfer AW over the hoverboard wich is slow and very limited.

[Rogunz]

25 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Titania controls are way better. Wtf are you talking about. 

I can finally use her without crashing everytime there's a sharp turn due to completely borked momentum. Playing Titania now feels like I can move as freely as my other frames, instead of feeling like I have gimped mobility.

 Titania was great before, the only thing I ever crashed into was doors that didn't open fast enough since I didn't hold w the entire time I was flying. Now you get to teleport into the nearest wall the instant you press shift if you have any speed boost at all and get to have all the excitement of moving around slowly with noclip in hover mode if you want to shoot enemies. The only way Titania doesn't have completely gimped mobility now is if youuse a high power razorwing blitz mode so hover mode actually moves at a decent speed.

 

25 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

It invalidated any reason to use other Archwing. Can you even NAME the others Archwing besides Itzal and Odonata ? Do you even know how many are there ? That's how relevant they were.

There is still no reason to use any archwing but itzal for archwing missions if you care about loot since you get more than 3x as much by using cosmic crush. If you want to be invincible instead you can use Amesha but there is really no reason to use Odonata or Elytron.

 

The cooldown for blink means that Itzal is still the only archwing worth using open world missions since it has a much faster flight speed.

[Gaxxian]

hace 52 minutos, Isokaze_BestKaze dijo:

Titania controls are way better. Wtf are you talking about. 

I can finally use her without crashing everytime there's a sharp turn due to completely borked momentum. Playing Titania now feels like I can move as freely as my other frames, instead of feeling like I have gimped mobility.

Fun fact. Titania controls and responsiveness now, when you arent sprinting, are the same (but without drag) as before when u where sprinting (at sprint speed, of course).

So, i you didnt know how to play it... i just can say: Learn to play.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

9 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Fun fact. Titania controls and responsiveness now, when you arent sprinting, are the same (but without drag) as before when u where sprinting (at sprint speed, of course).

So, i you didnt know how to play it... i just can say: Learn to play.

The drag part is what matters.

The controls are way better because they removed the stupid and completely broken momentum she had.

Current Titania moves like Wukong's Cloud, which is what she should have. She's vastly more responsive when sprinting too. I played Titania a lot since her recent buff and that change in her mobility is amazing, she's way more fun to play now.

And with her buff she's also useable in a lot more missions, since she's way more durable than before and you don't need to quit Razorwing to hack consoles or regenerate all drones.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Isokaze_BestKaze

[Gaxxian]

hace 8 minutos, Isokaze_BestKaze dijo:

The drag part is what matters.

The controls are way better because they removed the stupid and completely broken momentum she had.

So, the OP title is correct. AW was fine, you were the problem.

Because the 5m momentum Titania had wasnt a problem, you just didnt know to play.

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 hora, Isokaze_BestKaze dijo:

It's exactly the same as Maiming Strike and Condition Overload nerf. It. Was. Broken.

Btw, now Condition Overload is a MANDATORY mod to every build. So, yes, great work.

But there is it a low of threads about the new melee. U can go there if u want to talk about the great state of CO.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Gaxxian

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

8 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Btw, now Condition Overload is a MANDATORY mod to every build. So, yes, great work.

But there is it a low of threads about the new melee. U can go there if u want to talk about the great state of CO.

It was still nerfed. And no it isn't mandatory, there are others build than CO. But the multiplicative part was completely stupid, and so was Maiming Strike and Itzal Blink.

10 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

So, the OP title is correct. AW was fine, you were the problem.

Because the 5m momentum Titania had wasnt a problem, you just didnt know to play.

Lul.

Sure, momentum changing direction just because you changed your camera direction was a great feature. They totally shouldn't have changed it ! /s

Edited November 29, 2019 by Isokaze_BestKaze

[DoomFruit]

On 2019-11-27 at 5:40 PM, Teridax68 said:

Yes, it absolutely was: putting aside how it made Itzal the only Archwing worth having in open levels, it also completely threw away the vastness of the Plains and Vallis by having the player skip pretty much instantly through all of the terrain, all of the enemy camps, all of the ground-level encounters, from one bounty objective to the next. Even with Blink nerfed, Archwing still does that by letting the player make a rapid beeline while flying over anything that could make travelling from point A to B more interesting. The current implementation may not be ideal (In particular, Itzal's compensatory 1 is a joke), but it's not like there was no problem at all.

Oh sure, the open worlds might be interesting for the first few times you're there, but what about when you're doing the same thing for the 50th time? When the game makes us do so much crap again and again and again and again, you're damn right that we're going to find ways to accelerate it. Despite what you (and DE) may think, Warfarm is not the centre of our lives. It's an auxiliary addon which is to be fitted in if we get spare time. If it's wasting our spare time, we either stop the wastage or we stop the game entirely.

[Reifnir]

On 2019-11-24 at 11:25 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

It meant everyone used Itzal, because it was lightyears faster than anything else.

Everyone used Itzal for TWO things - PoE Tridolon hunts and traveling in Orb Valis. Nobody used Itzal exclusively in normal Archwing missions. We have Amesha for that. Likewise, almost nobody used Archwing in PoE/Valis for anything other than traveling, DE took care of that by giving every enemy surface-to-air missiles that made sure you wouldn't like the experience. 

And breaking something just because it was actually good at its job is typical DE nerfbat style - nerfing something only because everything else is significantly worse. 

[Smilomaniac]

1 hour ago, Gaxxian said:

So, the OP title is correct. AW was fine, you were the problem.

Because the 5m momentum Titania had wasnt a problem, you just didnt know to play.

This is the feedback forum. Who do you think I'm telling is the problem, other players or DE? Think for a second.

They suffer massively from Developer Entitlement Syndrome, where players are treated like idiots who have to play according to how they want, not how the gameplay emerged. So instead of leaving the two options (or enabling both in open world) they trash it and nerf the one thing that made traveling in those areas tolerable. They're irresponsible and stubborn.

 

[Gaxxian]

hace 15 minutos, Smilomaniac dijo:

This is the feedback forum. Who do you think I'm telling is the problem, other players or DE? Think for a second.

They suffer massively from Developer Entitlement Syndrome, where players are treated like idiots who have to play according to how they want, not how the gameplay emerged. So instead of leaving the two options (or enabling both in open world) they trash it and nerf the one thing that made traveling in those areas tolerable. They're irresponsible and stubborn.

... Wow, yeah. I didnt saw the title as u are saying, but u are completely right. Thanks 🙂

In any case, I cannot agree with those persons that justify those changes based on the fact that they don't know how to play the game. And instead of learning, they try to force those borked down systems created by DE into the rest of players.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Gaxxian

[Smilomaniac]

18 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

... Wow, yeah. I didnt saw the title as u are saying, but u are completely right. Thanks 🙂

In any case, I cannot agree with those persons that justify those changes based on the fact that they don't know how to play the game. And instead of learning, they try to force those borked down systems created by DE into the rest of players.

I agree, absolutely. If someone is dragging down others because they're inept, then they're in the wrong.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

I've adressed most of what you said, but what you're arguing is that people *should* be slowed down, which is just objectively a terrible argument.

But it isn't, and ultimately I'm not proposing to slow people down all that much, as I also would like bounty objectives to be repositioned so that they're never too far from the player. My point here is simply that we shouldn't be expecting the game to reduce its vast map scale down to instant transmission from point to point just because Efficiency^TM, and that there likely exists a healthy and interesting mode of traversal out there, just like parkour in our regular missions (which we don't ask to bypass either).

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

I'm sure it comes as a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't actually like the open world areas, especially the bounties.
Anything that enables people to get through it as fast as possible is desirable - Whatever you think makes the terrain "interesting" or the camps in any way worth going through is entirely in your own mind. I never got the fish-scans done and I never will, same for the ghoul drops and a bunch of other things like the Orb Vallis music scans, not because I don't want them for the collection, but because I will never go there unless I have to.

If you don't like the open levels... don't play them? If you need to do stuff for progression, you're going to be having an unpleasant time anyway, so might as well just grit your teeth and bear it, rather than expect the game to solve itself for you.

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

It's also why people do the pipe-grind for the k-board rep and why pugs will flip their lids unless you have a meta setup for eidolon hunts. People want to get through the grinds as fast as possible. The game just isn't so interesting to stop and smell the flowers.

It's not that people want to get through the grind as fast as possible, it's that players want other players to use the optimal strategy available. Players aren't going to blame each other if K-Drives become the fastest mode of travel, and merely travelling in that manner isn't going to lead to the same kind of hyper-repetition as pipe grinding.

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

In other words, you can use your K-Board at a snail's pace and enjoy the scenery as much as you want, but if you tell me that me blinking to avoid it is a problem, then you've got some serious entitlement issues.

Well no, the entitlement is coming from you if you're the one asking the game to reduce its own content just so that you have to play less of it, but paradoxically still play it. As it stands, I'm not asking players to take the scenic route each time, so much as engage in a mode of traversal that is likely to add more enjoyment overall than just skipping from objective to objective, same as with our parkour. The problem with the reductive mentality of taking out all the parts of the game that aren't rewards is that you're ultimately asking to take the game out of Warframe, and are merely ending up expressing that you dislike playing the game you are playing. The solution to this shouldn't be to destroy the game, but to make it genuinely enjoyable.

22 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Oh sure, the open worlds might be interesting for the first few times you're there, but what about when you're doing the same thing for the 50th time? When the game makes us do so much crap again and again and again and again, you're damn right that we're going to find ways to accelerate it. Despite what you (and DE) may think, Warfarm is not the centre of our lives. It's an auxiliary addon which is to be fitted in if we get spare time. If it's wasting our spare time, we either stop the wastage or we stop the game entirely.

The same could be said for our tilesets, though, so I don't think the problem is the repetition: rather, the core issue is that bounties in the Plains and Vallis place their objectives haphazardly around the map, in such a way that we waste a lot of time trekking over unnecessarily long distances. By contrast, if those objectives were more or less aligned in such a way that it would only be a short ways away from one to the next, spending a few seconds K-Driving or the like during that time would likely feel fine, pleasant even. Thus, rather than look to make us teleport near-instantly from point to point, and defeat the scale and purpose of those maps, we should probably look to solve the pointlessly long gaps in-between map objectives instead.

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

that there likely exists a healthy and interesting mode of traversal out there

This is where your argument went from terrible to trash.

I completely understand what you mean, you think there has to be a high standard that the game and players should both adhere to, in the pursuit of some magical ideal. It's like the other guy praising 'balance', thinking it means everything should be equal, not understanding it's a guideline perspective that allows outliers. Game design isn't some glorious pursuit in pleasing academics, it's a consumer product made to entertain and earn money.
It's like the people out there who think every single piece of entertainment now has to be a political message about minority and/or gender issues in a bid to please critics; God forbid anyone enjoys themselves, especially if they paid for it.

As for entitlement, I'm not demanding the game changes on my behalf, I'm complaining that it changed to something inferior. This change was in no way positive other than to please themselves. Basically what I'm saying is that it seems you're more interested in lowering everyone to the lowest common denominator, rather than raising up the weakest.

I'm not interested in the rest of your post, it's useless debating that is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You want to do a quote war, go talk politics on /pol or reddit.

 

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-11-28 at 6:34 AM, Nitro747 said:

Also, experimental flight did have a lot of good stuff that should be put back.

I was using experimental flight.

This honestly feels better, so I'm not sure what specifically you mean. 

11 hours ago, SHArK-FiN said:

nah it's not a problem, I have no issue travelling from point A to B.

The point is, when I search for things on the ground, it no longer has air glide that keeps you the flight height while moving forward horizontally, and I really miss that. The forward movement that keeps bringing me down to the ground requires reapeated press of space is kind of tedious.

To me at least. I am not speaking for everyone nor did I. so please do not misunderstand that I am overriding anyone's opinion. 

Mine is situational.

Don't move forward then. Move sideways.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Aneres_Omega said:

I still believe that they did this because people perfer AW over the hoverboard wich is slow and very limited.

I'm pretty sure they did this to make Archwing combat work better, especially for Empyrean's sake.

The K-Drive isn't going to be relevant as a transportation option (beyond simply being fun) until we can get some kind of underground area where Archwing won't work. Like if they added an "open world" area that's the interior of an asteroid, complete with twisting tunnels.

  

11 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Ripline lets Itzal move while remaining invisible much as Blink allows.
You can combine to two for high forward momentum while remaining invisible. Worse than spamming Blink? Sure but far from useless.
I foresee DE making Blink break Invisibility in the future anyways so Ripline will be it's only method if that becomes the case.

The design intent of Itzal invis is to use it as a defensive tool, basically to "drop threat" from enemies, giving you a chance to regen shields or simply break away if needed. You're meant to sit still with it.

Which doesn't really fit Warframe's fast-paced design, frankly, let alone Archwing's combat design. They really should add a second effect to the ability that causes Itzal to rapidly regenerate HP, at least...

  

On 2019-11-27 at 8:28 PM, Snaccine said:

Yea this has been the general consensus on rip line for Itzal. It's super lazy and unoriginal. At this point I don't care what they do about blink, but they NEED to give Itzal a useful ability to replace it. It's ridiculous that they thought it was okay to begin with

I will absolutely agree that the ability doesn't really make sense for space combat in Warframe. I would rather it be some sort of "dash" ability that does damage, similar to Excalibur's Slash Dash. This would be similar to its old Blink as a mobility option, but have a limited range. Dunno if that would really work well for space combat distances between enemies, but it's more interesting. Maybe it could work like Ash's Blade Storm, marking enemies to be hit, and Itzal blinks to each one to do damage. This would prevent it from being used as a mobility option when spammed, while still having a similar theme.

Maybe Itzal should instead project a wave of cutting energy. 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 29, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, Smilomaniac said:

I completely understand what you mean, you think there has to be a high standard that the game and players should both adhere to, in the pursuit of some magical ideal. It's like the other guy praising 'balance', thinking it means everything should be equal, not understanding it's a guideline perspective that allows outliers. Game design isn't some glorious pursuit in pleasing academics, it's a consumer product made to entertain and earn money.

Yes, which means it is also not a progress bar one just expects to dispense rewards with no application. If that's your style of game, Cookie Clicker may suit you better. Meanwhile, there is in fact such a thing as healthy and unhealthy design, even if the meaning of the terms may escape you, and it is worth pushing games to improve their design, even if it doesn't mean making them absolutely perfect (and what I'm suggesting here is by no means pie-in-the-sky idealistic, it's a couple of pretty simple suggestions).

1 minute ago, Smilomaniac said:

It's like the people out there who think every single piece of entertainment now has to be a political message about minority and/or gender issues in a bid to please critics; God forbid anyone enjoys themselves, especially if they paid for it.

Uh, what?

1 minute ago, Smilomaniac said:

As for entitlement, I'm not demanding the game changes on my behalf, I'm complaining that it changed to something inferior. This change was in no way positive other than to please themselves. Basically what I'm saying is that it seems you're more interested in lowering everyone to the lowest common denominator, rather than raising up the weakest.

So... you just made this thread to trash-talk people who complained about Blink spam? How productive.

1 minute ago, Smilomaniac said:

I'm not interested in the rest of your post, it's useless debating that is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You want to do a quote war, go talk politics on /pol or reddit.

It seems you're the one here with some sort of desperate desire to discuss politics, not me. As it stands, you are the one who chose to debate me: just to give a quick refresher on how debates work, either side makes points, which the other responds to with counterpoints and points of their own. You may ignore or dismiss these points as you wish, but will also get called out if your debating tactics are shallow or flimsy, as is the case here. You may not like my quote-by-quote responses, but I'd say it's still a lot better than you jumping on a fragment of what I've written, going on some unhinged rant about how you're choosing to dismiss this concept you clearly do not comprehend, and then trying to justify doing so in a manner that only further underlines the ineptitude of your arguments. If you want to give feedback about the game to improve it, by all means be my guest (though then don't absolve yourself of it when pressed), but if all you're planning on doing is picking fights with other users, this is not the space for you.

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-11-24 at 3:18 AM, Smilomaniac said:

Was the blink "spamming" a problem? No.

Pretty sure they did what they did because they disagree with you on this point. The old Blink was essentially an instant "teleport to where you wanna go" button, and they don't want that.

3 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Btw, now Condition Overload is a MANDATORY mod to every build. So, yes, great work.

This is untrue. I have numerous weapons with builds that don't use it.

Edited November 29, 2019 by DrakeWurrum