Blink nerf and railjack archwing gameplay.

[KanzatoHiro]

Bring my Itzal back, nuff said.

[Kazouie101]

Just wanted to chip in on the Zipline:

Let us disconnect terrain bound zipline by recasting or Blinking please. Right now its pretty bad for mobility because you have to be wayyy too close to the terrain for the tether to break and if you blink a bit too soon you get rubberbanded back by the zipline, not fun.

 

Yeeting enemies is all fun and games until you are in an exterminate mission and someboday scatters the enemies all over the place. Trolls are a thing that exists devs. So maybe make it have a cooldown when used on enemies but provide an instant kill on anything throwable, just an idea.

 

The new Blink activation feels clunky when you want to keep your boost and also blink, please give us alternative means to do that

 

[Yakhul]

10 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Because it is a nerf and it isn't just the cooldown, the range on this blink is tiny too, I noticed it and I'm not even built for blink.   And to be fair, even Rebecca was complaining about the cooldown duration (assuming it wasn't just for show) during devstream.

My personal solution to the issue... do what I suggested which is essentially stick the old itzal blink onto number '5' (operator key) and make it use energy like before.   Nobody complained about the old itzal blink, it was basically DE Scott who had an issue with it, which in turn caused this nerf, and lets be real here I'm not even sure he actually plays the game outside of testing at work. 

I dont think that would be the solution, because it defeats the purpose of having blink on all archwings, if the itzal has 2 types of blinks. Should you do that, you have a very much similar situation as with the Catchmoon. Before the "nerf" players used itzal for 2 reasons: Blink, and Cosmic Crush (essentially Vacuum for Archwings)

Without Blink, people will still favor itzal not just because is still the fastest archwing, but also for Cosmic Crush. So we have in our hands another Catchmoon situation here, and should Itzal could get another blink, it would be the same, so i believe that it was justified that blink is now an ability for all archwings.

Instead of Ripline, i would rather have the first ability of the itzal to be something really simple: Self boost of speed. Itzal is known to be the stealth archwing, and is still the fastest, would rather have an ability that increases itzal speed for a short duration, instead of ripline.

[Jynx41174]

DE needs to Realize that players are going to use what they're going to use, it would be refreshing if they actually took the time to look at what everyone is using and then buff everything that they're not using instead of nerfing the one thing that everyone is using into the ground.  Which is gonna wind up biting them in the ass in the long run

 

In any case, I'm an Amesha Main

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Jynx41174
spelling

[Sloan441]

On 2019-11-22 at 3:03 PM, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

The real crime is giving Itzal a ripline ability.

Aside from the hyperbole, DE can do better than a ripline on the Itzal. It's neither appropriate or particularly useful. 

I don't care about Blink so much. I used it some, but it wasn't fundamental to how I got around (mostly used it to evade missiles). It was kinda nice sometimes, but I won't miss it. 

Ripline--we can do better than this on Itzal. I can live with it as a placeholder, but something better needs to be implemented. 

[LSG501]

53 minutes ago, Trapkin said:

I dont think that would be the solution, because it defeats the purpose of having blink on all archwings, if the itzal has 2 types of blinks. Should you do that, you have a very much similar situation as with the Catchmoon. Before the "nerf" players used itzal for 2 reasons: Blink, and Cosmic Crush (essentially Vacuum for Archwings)

Without Blink, people will still favor itzal not just because is still the fastest archwing, but also for Cosmic Crush. So we have in our hands another Catchmoon situation here, and should Itzal could get another blink, it would be the same, so i believe that it was justified that blink is now an ability for all archwings.

Blink on '5' was for all frames, not just itzal....

 

 

[GruntBlender]

7 hours ago, Uthael said:

it just clicks the "restart" button for you.

Incidentally, that's why I gave up on Destiny after about a thousand hours. The feeling of restarting over and over, like nothing I did mattered despite the grand proclamations of the story. 

Destiny had a mechanic called Light. Gear had a light level that scaled the armor/damage. This was capped at 300. Then an expansion dropped the cap for all existing gear and only the gear from the expansion could reach the new cap. Iirc, one expansion dropped the cap for old gear to 180. Same with the raids, the first expansion there introduced a second raid, dropping making the first raid and its endgame drops irrelevant. 

By comparison, having to chuck a couple forma on your gear isn't so bad when the upside is overall improvements to the core gameplay loop. And really, our gear is still overpowered even without minmaxing it. It still lets us blow through all the content barring endurance runs. With a potato, you can get away with zero forma builds, so adding those forma isn't top priority, you can take your time with it.

7 hours ago, Uthael said:

It won't help players who leave the game because their hard-earned builds got nerfed into oblivion.

Often, those hard earned builds are hilariously broken and overpowered, like the catchmoon and condition overload were. As it stands, a simple build on a braton increases DPS 62x. That's hilarious. When a specific build takes that to 300, then gets nerfed to 100, it's still a good build. 

[Uthael]

Forget the star chart and intended content. Once you've accumulated enough hours, what else is there to go for in this game than for "minmaxed and overpowered"? I'm not interested in cosmetics... Much 😛

I'm all for rebalancing and bringing improvements to the core gameplay loop. But you just said you quit another game for the same reason.

Melee used to be THE single, OP way to deal damage to a small group of enemies (or a single one). Now, it's on par with some ranged weapons and Catchmoon got nerfed to the point that it's better to use melee. Many players quit for those reasons.

It wouldn't hurt the gameplay if there was a way to save at least some of that progress so players can re-apply to new tests or potential "new meta" gear.

Imagine if Destiny allowed you to keep that Light they cut from the cap and put it into newly released gear... You probably wouldn't have felt as bad.

Your story reminded me of some Chinese guy whoo commited suicide when WoW:Cataclysm came out. He had ALL the achievements, including "server 1st" feats of strength for some stuff. Then, not only did his epic/legendary gear become comparable to the new uncommon/rare items, but many of his achievements didn't even matter anymore.

A way to recycle the time made obsolete by a patch is necessary for longevity of the game. Tell me... If a system for that existed, would it do more harm than good for player count?
Are there more "players who would get bored faster" or "players who quit because of a change they don't like"?
Players who quit before a patch, do so "because of the grindfest" or that "there's nothing to do anymore". Those who quit because "there's nothing to do", come back, because they know the time they spent was well invested and they're satisfied with what they have.
Players who quit after a patch probably won't be coming until the next major patch. Or ever. Probably like you with Destiny.

Edit: Also, if a recycle system got implemented and got heard of, it'll probably bring good publicity and pull some players from other grindy games into Warframe just because a fallback mechanics for bad decisions (due to not being able to see the future) exists.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Uthael

[Smilomaniac]

What was needed - For every archwing to be able to get somewhere quickly so that you weren't pidgeonholed into using the Itzal

What you did - Nerf AND break the blinking as well as the movement of the archwing

Was the blink "spamming" a problem? No. You broke it into this clownish sprint mashing that makes no sense.
Was the afterburner a problem? No. Engaging afterburner was probably the single thing about archwings that felt good. Yet you removed this.
Was the movement an issue? No, you had two options that people could switch between that made sense in different ways.

Now we're all at the same level: It's bad for everyone. Just revert the change and admit that you didn't even play test this, much less have a solution to the "problem".
I don't know if this is another Scott level of stubborness, like when you insisted that Vacuum was somehow a luxury mechanic, but it definitely seems like the itzal blink was a "problem" for developer ego and literally no one else.

[AdunSaveMe]

Movement is way better. It was so bad before.

And yeah, Itzal Blink was a problem. It meant everyone used Itzal, because it was lightyears faster than anything else. So other Archwings were left in the dust, Itzal was relegated to being a Blink taxi, and you either teleported across the map instantly, or you trundled to your location using a clunky and strangely-designed flight model. Unless you really liked not being able to change elevation while boosting without turning, or rolling for no reason because it had abolutely zero impact on flight physics; for both basic use and for Archwing viability, the new flight system is much improved.

Edited November 24, 2019 by AdunSaveMe

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Movement is way better. It was so bad before.

Yep, not even a question to me.

Sorry for not liking the slippy-slidey wall-crashy nonsense that was old Archwing.

[Smilomaniac]

4 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Movement is way better. It was so bad before.

And now it's a hesitant flight mode without any feedback, momentum or play. Agree to disagree, it's actually terrible now.
Also, you had two control schemes, you apparently didn't use the other one.

 

6 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

And yeah, Itzal Blink was a problem. It meant everyone used Itzal, because it was lightyears faster than anything else. So other Archwings were left in the dust, Itzal was relegated to being a Blink taxi, and you either teleported across the map instantly, or you trundled to your location using a clunky and strangely-designed flight model.

I summed this up in one line, literally the first one in the post, and it wasn't a problem to anyone else but the people who obsess about some nonsense idealistic sense of "balance".

 

 

[DagoDrakh]

17 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Movement is way better. It was so bad before.

And yeah, Itzal Blink was a problem. It meant everyone used Itzal, because it was lightyears faster than anything else. So other Archwings were left in the dust, Itzal was relegated to being a Blink taxi, and you either teleported across the map instantly, or you trundled to your location using a clunky and strangely-designed flight model. Unless you really liked not being able to change elevation while boosting without turning, or rolling for no reason because it had abolutely zero impact on flight physics; for both basic use and for Archwing viability, the new flight system is much improved.

That's a hyperbole. I could never teleport across the whole map as I never had the energy for it. I used energy dash before AW and had to wait for the energy to refill before I could blink again. And afterburner wasn't bad either. Now it feels sluggish, the double tap shift feels unreliable and annoying, not fun. There was some problems with sliding and not able stop the AW where you wanted, but nothing else felt bad. It felt like a great jetfighter with afterburner, now it's just meh.

Also double tapping shift is unreliable, sometimes it doesn't work for me, it's very annoying.

Edited November 24, 2019 by DagoDrakh

[AdunSaveMe]

8 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

you had two control schemes

Only in space. Plains/Vallis Archwing had one control scheme, and it was awful.

8 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

it wasn't a problem to anyone else but the people who obsess about some nonsense idealistic sense of "balance"

Because god forbid people want more viable options. Almost as if balance is important and not just a myth.

8 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

a hesitant flight mode without any feedback, momentum or play.

It was, yeah. Glad they made that better.

3 minutes ago, DagoDrakh said:

That's a hyperbole

Obviously.

3 minutes ago, DagoDrakh said:

but nothing else felt bad

The entire thing felt bad. It was floaty, clunky, and just bafflingly designed, which was only made worse because the levels didn't play well with it.

Now it actually feels like fast, responsive, space magic-y ninja flight, rather than a half-baked pseudo flight-sim with no depth or responsiveness.

Edited November 24, 2019 by AdunSaveMe

[DagoDrakh]

2 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Only in space. Plains/Vallis Archwing had one control scheme, and it was awful.

Because god forbid people want more viable options. Almost as if balance is important and not just a myth.

It was, yeah. Glad they made that better.

Obviously.

The entire thing felt bad. It was floaty, clunky, and just bafflingly designed, which was only made worse because the levels didn't play well with it.

You don't hyperbole in a feedback tread as that's not helpful.

Edited November 24, 2019 by DagoDrakh

[kapn655321]

Using Itzal was all about drinking an energy pizza, scroll wheel spamming 1 till you ran out of energy,
and repeating.

That didn't feel a bit terrible?
Not even a bit out of place, busted, abusable...?
Always felt that was poorly implemented.

It spread the party out, and shamed other players for not having brought Itzal.
Hell, it was so unbalanced it encouraged OTHER players to shame others for not bringing Itzal..
That's where the problem is.

There aren't hundreds of options in this game for us to angrily say to each other,
"Why didn't you just use this?!? You're ruining my mission!"

Itzal did that to people. That means it wasn't in balance.
 

[DagoDrakh]

Just now, kapn655321 said:

Using Itzal was all about drinking an energy pizza, scroll wheel spamming 1 till you ran out of energy,
and repeating.

That didn't feel a bit terrible?
Not even a bit out of place, busted, abusable...?
Always felt that was poorly implemented.

It spread the party out, and shamed other players for not having brought Itzal.
Hell, it was so unbalanced it encouraged OTHER players to shame others for not bringing Itzal..
That's where the problem is.

There aren't hundreds of options in this game for us to angrily say to each other,
"Why didn't you just use this?!? You're ruining my mission!"

Itzal did that to people. That means it wasn't in balance.
 

So because others had no Itzal or chose to use something else, you bring everyone else down who used it? That's not helpful. When Scott said they just want to give this ability to every AW, I was fine with it, but there was nothing about nerfing it. And that was said in dev stream, because the chat gone crazy that they will nerf it and here we are.

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, kapn655321 said:

Using Itzal was all about drinking an energy pizza, scroll wheel spamming 1 till you ran out of energy,
and repeating.

That didn't feel a bit terrible?
Not even a bit out of place, busted, abusable...?
Always felt that was poorly implemented.

It spread the party out, and shamed other players for not having brought Itzal.
Hell, it was so unbalanced it encouraged OTHER players to shame others for not bringing Itzal..
That's where the problem is.

There aren't hundreds of options in this game for us to angrily say to each other,
"Why didn't you just use this?!? You're ruining my mission!"

Itzal did that to people. That means it wasn't in balance.
 

I can understand and sympathize, but it's a non-issue to anyone who's made the effort to join a clan and make friends in this game, which solves by far most complaints that people have about anything that 'pressures' them. The most current examples are the lich issues. DE not encouraging people to do this instead of PUG'ing is by far the largest PR issue the game has.
Basically everything boils down to being mad about others not catering to your playstyle, when you're playing with random people. That's what we call a personal problem.

If I had to list every thing that felt terrible about Warframe, we'd be here for the rest of the year. No, the itzal spam didn't "feel" great, but I could say the same for nearly every ability on every warframe and every archwing in the game. Not a lot of it feels great, in fact most of it feels like it has very little impact at all, because it's more of a numbers game than a physics simular (besides corpse ragdolling).

In what way was it "abusable" or exploitative? You dump energy pizzas aka time and effort you spent on the game, to circumvent one of the hundreds of annoyances that are in the game (F2P "engagement" design). Not only is it not abuse, it's completely reasonable. You pay, you get something for it.

Poorly implemented? Absolutely, since it wasn't designed or intended for open world use, cutting them some slack on that point is more than fair.

Give blink to all archwings, by all means. Better yet, reinstate the afterburner and increase speed by 5 to 10 times and everyone would be satisfied.
You could even have itzel keep the blink and make it a choice for people to avoid getting shot down when using archwings in open world combat.
There is no point to slowing people down in open world areas. It doesn't make sense thematically or mechanics wise.

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

That's what we call a personal problem.

It's also the body of game experience that they're asking new people to sign up for.

"You will be left behind by people who feel you're a burden. They're doing some meta thing, and it's your fault you're not on board already."

That's why it had to be reworked. It's still plenty fast, and costs no energy.
They did their best to get it in a place functional to the experience they intend.

Adding 20 seconds to a cheese run on Eidolons isn't exactly the game destroying armageddon it's making itself out to be.

Needing to speed run that hard might also be a personal problem, if you want to look at it like that.

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, kapn655321 said:

It's also the body of game experience that they're asking new people to sign up for.

"You will be left behind by people who feel you're a burden. They're doing some meta thing, and it's your fault you're not on board already."

That's why it had to be reworked. It's still plenty fast, and costs no energy.
They did their best to get it in a place functional to the experience they intend.

Adding 20 seconds to a cheese run on Eidolons isn't exactly the game destroying armageddon it's making itself out to be.

Needing to speed run that hard might also be a personal problem, if you want to look at it like that.

There's a massive difference between having issues with the game because other people are behaving in a way that you don't like and having issues with the game because they change the actual game.

What you did was make a false equivalence. These are two topics that are related, but not interchangable.

Again, the problem you're describing is less an issue with the game than with PUG'ing. Your solutions are to not PUG, disable/ignore chat, mute people or to try to understand why those people are being rude to you in the first place and then either comply or ignore.

DE not making a better choice and inadvertently creating a meta is not a reasonable argument to make.

It's like the guy up above with the absurd post count, who thinks "balance" is some USSR communistic ideal where no one or any one thing can be better or stick out in some way.
No, balance is when things make sense according to the progression or effort put into something. If a weapon with a riven stands far and above the rest, it doesn't mean the rest is invalidated. If an MK1-Paris was suddenly the best weapon in the game due to a math quirk or some other number glitch and turned into a rapid fire minigun bow, that would be unbalanced and outside the bounds of intent and cohesive gameplay.

Balance is not a great ideal, it's become the battlecry of anyone who claim to know better without having a shred of perspective for what's fun and what makes sense.

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Smilomaniac said:

Your solutions are to not PUG, disable/ignore chat, mute people or to try to understand why those people are being rude to you in the first place and then either comply or ignore.

What?

That was not what I was going for there.
Didn't mention in game chat.
Seems like something was missed.

It was a clear and obvious option that antiquated and trivialized large swathes of options in a similar range of crafting and competency.
It was OP. ..It inherently had mechanics that put the other archwings to shame.
Whatever that thing about rudeness was you were thinking I said, wasn't what I was talking about.

Balance to you feels slower and worse.
Not having balance for anyone not using meta, is Dramatically worse.
You still get to teleport, other users don't get to have made a clear, wrong, inept choice for the same relative crafting cost.

Good luck with the new system.
Perhaps once the other archwings get some attention, a better compromise can be made.

[Smilomaniac]

8 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

What?

That was not what I was going for there.
Didn't mention in game chat.
Seems like something was missed.

It was a clear and obvious option that antiquated and trivialized large swathes of options in a similar range of crafting and competency.
It was OP. ..It inherently had mechanics that put the other archwings to shame.
Whatever that thing about rudeness was you were thinking I said, wasn't what I was talking about.
 

 

58 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

It spread the party out, and shamed other players for not having brought Itzal.
Hell, it was so unbalanced it encouraged OTHER players to shame others for not bringing Itzal..
That's where the problem is.

That's what I was referring to. Shaming people or being rude, potayto potahto.

Again, just because one choice is better than the rest, does not mean it is unbalanced. Right tool for the right job. Players have the option of making the Itzal as their second archwing, it's not unreasonable or impossible to get and this is ignoring the fact that I already agree that all archwings should be faster or all have the same fast blink.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Only in space. Plains/Vallis Archwing had one control scheme, and it was awful.

That was a problem with skywing, and it was explicitly skywing's problem. The better solution would have been to give space archwing controls to skywing (and also not nerfing blink to death before handing it around).

Edited November 24, 2019 by DoomFruit

[Althaline]

20 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Again, just because one choice is better than the rest, does not mean it is unbalanced.

This is literally the definition of unbalanced. If one choice is significantly outperforming all others, that's not a choice, it's a handicap.

[Nichivo]

 The changes with the exception of not being able to barrel roll, or fly upside down if I choose, are top notch, and improve Archwing, and Titania both.

One small tweak I would like is if Itzal's Arch Line was press to activate, press again release, and press to activate again. It would make it a little more fluid to chain together that way.