Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[AnuKaneDai]

@Smilomaniac

I'm not arguing or willing people to stop to point out what they think it's a problem.
I just see a lot of thread on the forum going on one direction, most of time the same, so I choose to enlight another one.
So we can enlarge our horizon with it.
A lot of arguments on the forum are only drived by that "human dont like change, even for good" (not meaning every change are good)

I, and a lot of other tennos probably too busy to enjoy the game to complain about something like to fly accross the plain without needing to spam an ability.
That and other changes.
And yes. A lot of problem raised come from the coding. The coding of free content.
But thoses problems are pointed out by the habit of the players.

People like efficient weapon for exemple. Catchmoon was probably really good. But what's the mater to kill 100hp ennemy with 1000 damage?
DE need to not nerf or up stuff, but balanced them, that's sure. But Tenno also need to dont stick up on theyr habit and meta stuff, just because it work.
That's my point. If we fall on the rush for faster stronger, at the end we finish by using same things again and again regardless if they are the best option.
Placing an "efficiency" over fun. And people then complain when they have to get out theyr comfort zone when a change is announced.
And a lot of people didnt even try to see the good side of a change.

Your side is probably a good one, but enough people talk about it.
I dont talk about the point of view of dev, but what I see ingame. A lot of player play for exemple saryn with spamming 4 and energy pod.
People dont like change, but they keep playing in a way that can lead to those change.
I dont argue using the best tool to do a task. But when you use that tool to do every task.
Is what I want to show. I want to point out the part of tennos in thoses changes.

Not to blindly defend a side, or having criticism about another one.
Just remembering that in everything that happen we participates to it.
Asking other to change why not, but looking at what we can change in us is also good.
And in the community theyr is an issues about "keep spamming an ability" that lead to nerf several time in the past.
Yes DE allowed the spamming by the coding. But the nerfs was initiate by the overuse of the community who end up by not knowing what to play beside it.

Edit:
So I want the tennos to look at theyr habit and ask themselves if they use the game in a way that gonna lead to change or
If they fully enjoy all the possibility that are gived to them. Before facing the wall of a nerf and complain about what DE did.

Edited December 3, 2019 by AnuKaneDai

[Foefaller]

1 hour ago, Fl_3 said:

ESO is the only game mode that Saryn is super viable in as she doesn't get punished for using her 1.

In order for any other frame to meet pace with her they need to use their more powerful abilities and they get punished for using them with a time out.

Maybe, just maybe if DE fixed ESO then Saryn wouldn't be the only viable frame to use in there?

If they nerf Saryn because she dominates in a single game mode, and only in a single game mode, then how long will it be until they nerf Equinox or Mirage when they take over as ESO nuker prime?

She dominates more than just ESO. Pretty much any endless mission or Mobile defense where there is a Saryn she will have at least twice as many kills as the rest of the squad combined as long as she puts in the least bit of effort into it. Pretty much the only time it doesn't happen is if the Saryn is nice enough to not use spores.

ESO is just the mode where her abilities are the most impressive because of the enemy spawn rate and numbers. But pretty much any mission that doesn't involve running from room to room at breakneck speed she's going to invalidate most other frames for having a reason to even be there.

[Firetempest]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

How?

It was originally touted as a 'arcade' mode. Short play sessions and you try and get the high score.

They could actually add some arcade mechanics to efficiency. Forget the power cooldowns but give diminishing returns for kills using the same ability or weapon. Add combos for mixing types of kills. Cycling through your whole power kit and arsenal mathed to better efficiency gains in fewer kills than just nuking the whole map with a power or ignis alone.

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, Fellas92 said:

I do get your point, but imagine how long does it take for them is to rework certain single items in game, now imagine them reworking the core game. Good luck with that lol.

 

Oh for sure. DE never established a good core design for the game to grow from. They do patchwork which often leads to reworks, more reworks and back tracking. If they took the time to incorporate good core rules and design structure to the game they'd probably save a good amount of development each time they add something.

The saddest part is a lot of these designs are in the game but they're isolated to specific parts when they should be used as global tools. Bounties for dynamic objectives in a missions. Vallis Alert system to control scaling and punish poor decisions. True damage for telegraphed attacks so they always hurt. It's all there already.

[tzadquiel]

12 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

All DE has to do is fix ESO so that one frame doesn't dominate it.

😂😂

 

12 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

It's way easier to fix a thing in a game than to fix the game itself.

😂😂😂

 

my takeaways from today:

1. eso is, maybe always was?????  broken
2. fixing a thing in game doesnt!!!! count as fixing the game 
3. instead of ubalancing the isolated frames frame, lets rebalance all the modes, so that the frames which couldnt handle them, still can't (but OP frames will remain OP, because player wants it to stay the same way). genius

 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I honestly have to wonder if all the crybabies shouting for nerfs have ever played saryn beyond lvl 40 enemies.  Are they all just hydron campers? 

Saryn absolutely is not a press one button afk kill the map warframe.  To be a good saryn player you have to use all 4 of her abilities in tandem with each other,  constantly be moving, and making sure your spores aren't actually doing too much damage or else they'll die out.

She's a frame designed for high levels and thank God we have a cple who are.  Try doing eso with grendel, tell me how you get on lol.  Does that mean she's op for star chart stuff?  For some missions, yeah.  Does the game need to be balanced around players who want to pew-pew enemies one at a time?  No, of course it shouldn't.  

I played eso last night as vauban, yes, there was a saryn in the squad.  I was happy there was as it meant a far higher chance of reaching zone 8.  She got most kills by some margin as you'd expect.  Didn't stop me having a lot of fun and I still managed to get a good number of kills myself.  Job done, everyone happy.

I don't care if I have most kills on the end screen.  People who do and complain saryn kills too many are in fact the people ruining the game as they're the ones expecting other players to play in a way and with the tools that suits them.  In pub squads ffs.   Warframe isn't really a co-op game.  It's four players in the same squad all playing solo.  There is no planning and team synergy, there's usually no communication either.  You want a particular game play experience where only certain methods and tools are used?  Go form a pre made squad.

[Nazzami]

changes to a frame to improve the overall game i can understand but from this i sound more like X frame is overused in X game mode which to me in this context seem more like your treating a symptom rather then the cause. Saryn is used a lot in ESO due the to mechanic that prevent other frame from working as intented, ESO timelocks skills that are use in quick succession Saryn doesn't have this problem as badly due to her 1 being able to persist, the need to get mass amounts of enemies to maintain the ESO timer is easier to because of this as other frame have forced downtime due to the timelock and weapons don't kill fast enough at higher levels and of course there the health and armour scaling issues that have ever been present. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Nazzami

[Fl_3]

6 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

How would you do it? What can you suggest that might make all warframes viable for ESO/SO ?

 

6 minutes ago, Xaero said:

How?

Easy, what's the one major restrictive thing that stops all frames being as viable in ESO as Saryn?

The main power Saryn uses in ESO is her number 1 ability, her spores, you spam 1 and the spores do the rest, hit 4,2 and 3 every so often and your golden.

No other frame can do that for such a low energy cost, and very few frames have a first ability that is a far reaching or deadly. Most of the high damage abilities for other frames are tied to their 3 or 4, and if you try to use them they get timed out. It's a stupid stupid rule to have in a kill all the things as fast as you can game mode as it prevents the player from doing just that.

All you have to do is remove that, allow other frames to use their abilities. Buff the enemies to make up for the fact that your not penalizing the player as much as you where, good to go.

SO and ESO are supposed to be challenging? They're not, they're tedious, but they're the best way to farm focus. That's why people take the frame that is best to clear that game mode, and, at the moment, that frame is Saryn.

 

 

[SastusBulbas]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

So from here on out you want DE to stop balancing the game, updating content, adding new modes, weapons, frames, mechanics, systems, and the like and just leaving everything completely the same until it shuts down, out of respect for your purchase at the time of purchase, is that correct? Because anything short of that sort of breaks this entire chain of logic. 

Warframe is a live service game, which means changing qualities, and it is what you decided to buy into. If you don't want that why are you here? What are you expecting? Because clearly whatever it is isn't reasonable or realistic given this games entire history and model revolves around change and not fixed content that never evolves.   

I gave an opinion.

 

Now regardless of yours, other companies selling digital goods have actually been in that place and I am pretty sure you can look online to see just how customer backlash and various other situations to do with digital purchases affected other games.

 

BFP4F never recovered fully from P2W and still with an active player base that paid shut the servers. Yet right to the end still sold the same packages.

 

WoT,  it may not be well documented, but players have rolled back months of credit card payments and simply been banned. Done due to changes, and WoT at the time could not take action.

 

But wait, WG now put a little more effort into premium vehicles, and have offered refunds or exchanges in past. 

Because a community deemed it wrong to pay for goods and have them changed. Oh and they too have an EULA that is pretty much like all online games.

 

Why am I here, well I was here in Beta, left shortly after, came back in Sept 2018. Because my son asked me to. 

 

 

I have spent a fair amount on this game.

I enjoy the game.

 

Does not mean their plat is good value, and to be honest, this situation of nerfing and changing and claiming beta on a game we were all playing years ago, just excuses.

 

If the game was better produced there would be little need to nerf everything. In fact, if the game was progressing beta players would not ve going same old and old frames would be power creeped, not needing nerfed. Or at least there would be a point where during development someone realises what is op.

 

I still remember returning to players with Banshee and Ember, running around IO  thinking I want that.

A year later with a new account on xbox and thinking, did I just waste £50. The games barely changed, they keep changing stuff,  why the hell do I keep spending money.

 

Love the mentality of why you here! Instead of the mentality of wait a minute, paying customers are getting irritated.

 

But thats modern customer service and game community mentality I guess.

 

 

Will I leave? Well I would have to be an idiot to leave after investing so much.

 

But here, I work for a business that has won retail awards, I wonder if thats due to having a slight grasp on customer service and knowing how to do a job right instead of half cocked with a who the hell does that customer think he is. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I agree that all the game mechanics are already in the game, but mixing trash horde genocide farming and boss fights is always a bit complicated. Nerfing most efficient frame for a specific mission is not the solution to variety of missions and variety of frames.

What will be next ? Nerfing inaros ? Nerfing chroma ?... To a point that we get 1hko in sorties and need to spend a lifetime to level weapons / frames / focus schools doing "liches" missions in which we get killed (and lose bonus points) because reasons ?

[IceColdHawk]

10 hours ago, Xaero said:

"Not working on nerfing Saryn at the moment" should be considered a joke too?

Seems more like a safe and honest answer. You could say he is a liar if they nerf saryn in 3 years. Now he's just saying there's no plans for that right now.

Looks like Papa Pablo got you guys real good 😉

Edited December 3, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

It's natural that people will flock to the most effective methods of doing things. I tend to use what I enjoy rather than the meta, but sometimes they overlap.

The issue isn't that people use the best things they can. The issues are just about everything else with the game that created the scenario we are living in:

• Probably highest on the list, that every other issue trickles down from, is that both Player and enemy survivability and damage scaling is complete garbage.
• The best things people can use are leagues above the next tier below them, and make even average gear completely obsolete by comparison.
• DE has fallen into the habit of making all content exclusively geared towards the top DPS frames/gear, or the top durability frames making anything specifically designed for CC/support unnecessary.
• DE doesn't give every frame equal opportunity for scaling (which kinda ties into the other points).
  • If an ability's primary function is damage... IT. MUST. SCALE. There is literally no counter argument to that. 
  • Not all abilities are useful throughout even most of the game. Niche use abilities need additional function that is commonly useful outside of the niche
  • NO ability should become obsolete in higher level content due to being too slow, too weak, etc. Being a 1 ability is no excuse to be useless, despite the common jokes.
  • Edit: I fully support nerfs because powercreep in this game makes me want to gouge my eyes out, but DE tends to stick to the extremes. They either make something so obscenely overpowered that there's no surprise everyone flocks to that and stays there, or they nerf something so hard that it's not even worth using anymore as a non-god-tier gear. They also frequently balance things in the complete wrong way. Using @Smilomaniac's example, taking the handle off the hammer and calling it balance.

Edited December 3, 2019 by (PS4)Ozymandias-13-
Additional points

[tzadquiel]

55 minutes ago, 844448 said:

????

I'm just giving my opinion on Pablo's stream on another thread where saryn will get a rework. The only thing I see as broken is the spores where you can hit up to 100,000 damage per second while the rest are fine

mixed you up in this, not sure why. too many 'omg - saryn nerf' threads I suppose 🙂 sorry OP

[Xaero]

9 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Seems more like a safe and honest answer. You could say he is a liar if they nerf saryn in 3 years. Now he's just saying there's no plans for that right now.

Looks like Papa Pablo got you guys real good 😉

Personally, I'm good with nerfing her. Just don't understand why people call it a joke.

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Personally, I'm good with nerfing her. Just don't understand why people call it a joke.

 Because it was a joke by Pablo himself? He knows how to trigger the community and he felt like poking a hornets nest during his stream.

Which apparently has worked. Personally, I'm good with reworking frames that are screaming for help. Atlas is still in need and that's just one example 🙃.

Edited December 3, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[SneakyErvin]

All... well ok the handful (if even that) of nuke frames need to have LoS rules implemented to them. Saryn being the current biggest offender since she can completely turn your gameplay into a passive ride along due to how her spread works and how much range she has available to her. I mean we are talking about a small part of the roster here that can absolutely turn any mission into a complete drag.

I'm also very amused by the people and their real world comparisons to nerfs. Let me ask you a questions.

How often do you get presented by a written form of agreement when you go order a pizza or buy a car that says that change may happen to what you ordered and that you really own nothing of what you bought? That your Königsegg may suddenly turn into a Skoda or that your Pizza may suddenly get turned into a slice of tomato? Because that is what you pretty much claim since DE specifically has you agree to a ToS and a EULA that states that you own nothing in the game and that DE can change whatever they see fit for the lifetime of the game, I mean you all knew that before you started to invest in the frames.

Well, with that I would like to welcome you to online games, since this seems to probably be your first considering the complaints.

[Xaero]

34 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

Easy, what's the one major restrictive thing that stops all frames being as viable in ESO as Saryn?

The fact that most of them aren't nukers.

37 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

The main power Saryn uses in ESO is her number 1 ability, her spores, you spam 1 and the spores do the rest, hit 4,2 and 3 every so often and your golden.

No other frame can do that for such a low energy cost, and very few frames have a first ability that is a far reaching or deadly. Most of the high damage abilities for other frames are tied to their 3 or 4, and if you try to use them they get timed out. It's a stupid stupid rule to have in a kill all the things as fast as you can game mode as it prevents the player from doing just that.

All you have to do is remove that, allow other frames to use their abilities. Buff the enemies to make up for the fact that your not penalizing the player as much as you where, good to go.

Ok, taking Excalibur as an example.

What do I get for spamming Slash Dash? Limiting myself to single hits per 1-2 seconds in melee range.

What do I get for spamming Radial Blind? Almost nothing, it doesn't do damage on its own. It buffs my melee damage against nearby enemies, but my dps is actually higher when I'm not wasting time on casting it. It could help at later waves, but a single cast costs you couple percents of efficiency.

What do I get for spamming Radial Javelin? Nothing at all. Its damage is laughable even on lower levels.

What do I get for spamming Exalted Blade activation/deactivation? Nothing at all, obviously. As for actually using it throughout the whole wave, it's nothing different from what it is now. And I can tell EB is on par with regular melee weapons, if not inferior.

As you see, spamming abilities doesn't work at all for Excalibur in ESO. On top of that, you're suggesting enemy buff to make it even harder for him.

[Xaero]

15 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

 Because it was a joke by Pablo himself? He knows how to trigger the community and he felt like poking a hornets nest during his stream.

Which apparently has worked. Personally, I'm good with reworking frames that are screaming for help. Atlas is still in need and that's just one example 🙃.

Pablo never said he was joking though. Have you even read his post before it's been deleted? What he did say though, is that he is not working on Saryn nerf at the moment.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

Sad day when you have to hide your frame and weapons builds in some fleeting hope you can keep the nice stuff you worked hard for safe from nerfs. You can rename and reskin melee weapons. You can rename and reskin secondaries. Many will and do to protect what they find most fun.

The worst part is when the very community you consider yourself a part of turns against you, insults you, and simply wants to see your stuff nerfed to the ground simply out of spite. No valid reason, simply because you like it and don't agree with the nuclear option.

They aren't asking you to hide your builds—They are asking you to be considerate enough to not be That Guy in pugs.

Annoying play styles/habits are a nuisance and not fun to play around and those do tend to get nerfed here.

It is common knowledge that saying something is "OP" isn't, necessarily, grounds to get nerfed.

But "not fun to play around"?...

• Frost got nerfed for this.
• Ash got nerfed for this.
• Trinity got nerfed for this a few times.
• Mesa...
• Nova...
• Volt...
• Ember...
• Excal...
• Nyx

...Not to mention weapons, weapon types, and damage types.

In this case, the Nerf Herders didn't even do the deed... An inconsiderate Saryn player did instead.

FWIW, Just be glad it's the  2019 version of DE and not the 2017 version...

 2017 DE would nuke Saryn into garbage tier from orbit and leave her there for a year or two...

Don't believe me? Ask vet Frost, Ash, Ember, Nyx, and Volt players.

The most you can likely expect is a mild tuning as opposed to having two or three skills made to be an outright waste of energy, or a death sentence, to cast.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, Xaero said:

What he did say though, is that he is not working on Saryn nerf at the moment.

If you ask me "Hey Ice, are you gonna get Borderlands 3?" and i'm 100% sure i won't ever touch it, i'd say "No." but if i was unsure and/or at least know that i won't get it in any recent time, i'd simply say "Not at the moment.". It can mean never but at least it means that you shouldn't be expecting it any soon.

Don't get your hopes up my dude. Even if she gets removed, ESO will still get nuked outta existence through countless other options. Because that's literally what you have to do in there in order to not get kicked out before finishing zone 8 xD.

[Skaleek]

11 hours ago, 844448 said:

Anything else you want to add?

Yeah, next time just post on the 20 page megathread instead of creating your own twisted monster. 🤗

This issue is getting way too much visibility.

[Xaero]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

If you ask me "Hey Ice, are you gonna get Borderlands 3?" and i'm 100% sure i won't ever touch it, i'd say "No." but if i was unsure and/or at least know that i won't get it in any recent time, i'd simply say "Not at the moment.". It can mean never but at least it means that you shouldn't be expecting it any soon.

Wait, you haven't watched the stream either? Because if you did, you should know your comparison is flawed. First of all, I don't ask you if you're gonna get Borderlands 3, it is you who starts the conversation by telling me you really need to get Borderlands 3. Then, after some time, you say: "Not at the moment."

And the things now sound in a different way, right?

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Don't get your hopes up my dude. Even if she gets removed, ESO will still get nuked outta existence through countless other options. Because that's literally what you have to do in there in order to not get kicked out before finishing zone 8 xD.

That's irrelevant. ESO is a badly designed gamemode, lowering efficiency drain until wave 9 could help a bit.

[Sylonus]

If they nerf Saryn, I will play Equinox, they nerf her too, Volt it is, They nerf him, fine, I can do Khora, they nerf her, okay I play Mirage I suppose, her too, I can play Mesa I guess, her too... I guess I play Destiny.

[Xaero]

2 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

If they nerf Saryn, I will play Equinox, they nerf her too, Volt it is, They nerf him, fine, I can do Khora, they nerf her, okay I play Mirage I suppose, her too, I can play Mesa I guess, her too... I guess I play Destiny.

Is nuking a thing in Destiny? You seem to love it very much.

[Sylonus]

4 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Is nuking a thing in Destiny? You seem to love it very much.

What I love is feeling powerful, my point is if they nerf the power fantasy out of this game, Destiny has better gunplay and graphics, there reason I'm here is for the power fantasy.