The absence of randomized stats was what set Warframe apart

[ixidron92]

hace 4 minutos, Anduvriel dijo:

Warframe - 100% of everything that you might ever NEED to succesfully play any content comes from special spots you can farm with extremely high chances of success or outright get for resources that have extremely high chance to drop (getting necessasary frames, weapons, mods*). No content locked behind rng. 

This is literally why I play Warframe. I do not like nor want a million layers of RNG preventing me from progressing. I want to invest time, effort and resources, not play the #*!%ing lotto.

I would have been fine with RNG stats if we could use spare copies and/or resources to boost the stats, but I won't accept RNG stats without any kind of hard fallback mechanic. That's the reason why I killed 4 liches and quit playing that system. The RNG everything was too unappealing to me. That's why I'm basically pondering right now if I should spend more time grinding the Railjack system or just give up and wait for the new war, and that's why I'm not dropping another freaking cent if the current trend continues.

Railjack is fun. I have fun piloting my ship, destroying enemy fighters, blowing up crewships with my BFG, but every time I get to the mission reward, I just want to punch the screen. I'm not making progress. I am stuck, and it's not because I'm not investing time and effort, it's because a #*!%ing machine decided I can't progress any further because the dice didn't roll in my favor.

[taiiat]

and that part that made it 'different' was also perhaps part of why Players for many years have had little to nothing to do in the game.

not that this is the only way to give Players something to do over a long period of time, but well Warframe hasn't really provided any alternatives to that to make content have some longevity so that something can take mental priority over the repetitiveness.

 

and on the flip side, the game over years still asked you to play a Mission hundreds of times, it's just that 99% of the time you got nothing until you finally got the item you were looking for.
is that really better perse than having a gradient of rewards? is a gradient of 1-100 every time you play worse than always getting 100 1/50 times that you play?

Warframe has always had RNG, just in a form where 90% of the time you get nothing or not what you wanted.

- - - - - 

there being Randomization at all isn't some poison to the soul, it's all about the way you interact with it.
what are the parts that really catch things up? that 96% of all drops are of one House. that you can get Zetki Blueprints from Crewships and Outriders (fairly rare/low volume Enemies, but still there, and being there makes a big difference), but not Lavan or Vidar.
as even Scott admitted recently, Randomization of Stats relies on being able to roll the dice decently often otherwise it doesn't feel rewarding to do - and so we can expect Railjack to shift things a bit once they're back in the office and something will change about that. 

these Missions are Bounties like any other, with multiple Objectives - maybe that means like Earth/Venus Bounties, we should have Reward Pools per Objective? then Railjack type Rewards and non-Railjack type Rewards could both be offered separately, which would help both of those feel better?

 

on another side of the fence, i would not complain at all if every Video Game copied the Endgame grinding scene from The Division. it's perfect. it has the longevity via Randomization but still gives you the tools to direct your stuff in the direction you want, all in due time. it either drops the way you want it or if it drops somewhat close you can spend Resources to make it into what you want, or you could technically take any ol' random thing and spend Resources to make it into what you want though that is extremely expensive.
The Division, the best game that almost nobody knows about.

 

- - - - - 

once that is perhaps dealt with, then we can look to.... the destabilized landscape of Ship Parts and Weapons, and that most of them don't offer useful/interesting alternatives to each other, with there being easy, clear winners. in each Part Slot, there is one item that is just overall the best, and the two other Houses are uninteresting or throwaway items that you may keep for a short time but only until the desired House drops and you use that instead after.
Railjack shouldn't be like that - these House variants should actually be compelling to each other? the Stat differences should be strong enough and the right kind of differences, so that you actually stop and think "hmm, i'm not sure which one i want, i'll try them all and maybe i'll keep them for different situations" or something like that.

Edited December 28, 2019 by taiiat

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Never heard of Camelot, but that single example hardly qualifies.

D2 and D3 function way differently. For starters, you can modify the stats, there are sets with fixed stats, and the stats, while random, depend on the enemy level, not to mention, those games heavily rely much more on skill and abilities than gear, while Warframe depends entirely on gear for progression.

Borderlands, same as Diablo, showers you with gear, and there is much less emphasis on having good equipment, since most stuff just works for whatever. Not to mention, you were usually given enough gear as progression rewards or boss loot to continue playing without trouble and in any of those games the grind is remotely comparable with WF.

I can't comment of PoA since that's the only one I didn't play, but I'm guessing is similar to Diablo.

Warframe however, works like most MMOs (or used to work), where you're expected to grind an spend time, effort and resources for good equipment, guaranteed. Now you're expected to spend an outrageous amount of time grinding for a reward that might be worse than what you already have, or not, depends on RNG. Tying progression, TRULY tying progression to pure and insane RNG is indefensable bullsh*t.

But none of that is true.

You are just talking about very different things. For D2, D3 and BL you are somehow all of a sudden ok with RNG loot for progression, but then for the single game mode in WF that has RNG based gear it suddenly isnt OK, even though the comparable versions to OK gear in D2, D3 and BL is obtained with zero RNG in WF through your clan. The clan gear is more than enough to get you to and through veil with no bigger trouble, much like how you can do all of D2, D3 and the BL series with OK drops.

RNG stats in WF doesnt matter until you actually want to min-max and get the exact items you personally want. And at that point you are looking at a grind so much shorter than anything in either of the other games if you are after endgame BiS gear.

Relying on RNG for progression is 100% optional in Empyrean.

[Tenno76856]

Can we blame the existence of rivens for this?.

I personally quite like randomized stats in other games (i love rpgs etc). It keeps you looking for better weapons (with better stats etc).It keeps you coming back to the game etc. Not sure what people call "too much grind/rng" but imho random stats encourage people to keep trying.Yes some will get tired of grind which they "perceive" as unrewarding. But a boatload of people will say otherwise. Why dont people get more upset with rivens?

Edited December 28, 2019 by NigglesAU
yes

[Anduvriel]

2 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Railjack is fun. I have fun piloting my ship, destroying enemy fighters, blowing up crewships with my BFG, but every time I get to the mission reward, I just want to punch the screen. I'm not making progress. I am stuck, and it's not because I'm not investing time and effort, it's because a #*!%ing machine decided I can't progress any further because the dice didn't roll in my favor.

Railjack is just a tool, excatly as your frame. To not progress, is to not be able to use that tool to successfully complete all 3 planets and all its nodes. 

I think what you feel (meant) is the lack of an upgrade, or leveling up or becoming stronger. This is something that is common in all looters. 

Especially in online games that are supposed to be everlasting. Once you reach certain point of power the amount of upgrade possibilites shrink drastically. The more powerful you are the less power is to get.. Its inevitable if you want even remotely balanced content, developers can only prolong that time or like in many arpgs introduce seasonal wipes so you can start over. 

You see random stats on vidar reactor with 2% chance to drop, would you feel better if they made 70 (thats the range of the roll) names and asign each one a value? Different picture? And each with 0.03% or worse chance to drop? That would be excatly what is now in warframe with new.. antidrought odds. 

You are having fun. Dont look at the rewards, play for fun, things drop eventually and its still just a base of the system. Its still very far from a mirror of kalandra from PoE.. 

[DoomFruit]

On 2019-12-27 at 4:09 PM, SordidDreams said:

"We cAN't ChanGE IT nOw BECaUSe iT wOULDn't Be fAir tO PEOpLE WHO haVE AlReaDy spENt timE GrINDINg it".

I swear to god, DE....

That picture is hilariously appropriate. I think I'm going to save that for later use.

On 2019-12-27 at 4:54 PM, Darklord_Tou said:

And then you get areas that becomes useless once you get all desired item from there.Which the community was asking to make items so you can revisit old areas.

And lets be honest no matter how fun/how amazing the gameplay you make no one will visit any mode that isnt rewarding and that doesnt just case for warframe.

Conversely, I don't got anywhere near the kuva fortress because it's the single worst tileset in the entire game. I don't care what the rewards are, I have no intention of trying to navigate that horrible maze.

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm remember wanting randomized stats on mods before Rivens. Some of you may not remember, but modding was very stale back then. 

From what I've read, mods (and skill trees?) used to be completely random at the very start of the game, way back in closed beta. This was wiped out pretty quickly and for good reason.

[Vesiga]

On 2019-12-27 at 4:02 AM, GerberaOverture said:

not to mention that these mk3 rando-parts have only 2% dropchance ON MISSION COMPLETION 

i completely gave up on the whole empyrean thing until they make it right, mr28 btw

I went back to black desert online because i'd rather deal with korean enhancement systems than that

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

On 2019-12-28 at 8:35 AM, ixidron92 said:

Other than Chinese gatchas, no serious MMO uses randomized stats. All have random loot for sure, but not randomized stats. 

Warframe has been a Chinese game for years, though. They're just now, however, turning it into a gatcha. 

[AuroraSonicBoom]

I forgot which devstream it was, but way back in the day they mentioned how the mod system had random stats at first, but they realized people didnt like that at all and removed them.

7 years later and here we are. Time surely changes people.

[SordidDreams]

On 2019-12-28 at 10:35 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

modding was very stale back then

What do you mean, "was"?

[844448]

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Community surely changes people.

FTFY

[Volinus7]

You guys should wait until mods move your topic to off-topic for damage control which doesn't work. 

[CaptainMinty]

The only issue I have with the RNG on the wreckage is the reactors. Capacity should not be RNG. Every Vidar, Lavan, Zekti Reactor should be the same on its tier. To be clear, there should be no variation on capacity. A MK 1 Zekti Reactor should always have the same stats across the board for every player. Same with a Vidar MK 3 Reactor and a Lavan MK 2 etc.

The guns, shields, and engines having RNG stats however are perfectly acceptable. If fact I welcome RNG stats. I dunno it just gives my Railjack that unique feel to me. Like mine is unlike any other.

Does the random stats work? Yes and no. The problem with the random stats lies in the severe cost and time sink into acquiring a weapon. 12 hours is a long time, and that could end up being enough time for a player to find a better weapon. Plus the really high crafting costs. As someone who plays solo, gathering resources takes time. Missions take time. (Part of that problem being my Forward Artillery not being strong enough to dunk a crewship in one shot at later levels which makes no sense at all why the thing just doesn't unleash a behemoth amount of damage that nothing survives it the gun itself is expensive to craft for and takes a significant amount of time to fire so why can't I just blow stuff up in one hit come ON!) So when I have to grind to gather resources to repair one gun, and then I see my engines over there that desperately need a slapping of resources, and I see that I need another 7000 or so carbides I silently hate all things because I have to drag myself in the dirt to gather it all up.

Part of the reason I think the resource grind is so high is because DE doesn't want us stockpiling resources at an insane rate. But instead they should up the cost of forging materials for the Railjack. The goo that keeps our ship together, the energy and ammo we dump at the enemy. That should be more expensive, and the forge capacity higher. It'd make in flight forging more detrimental and preflight preparation more important. But I digress.

The RNG shouldn't be on reactors. But on the guns, shields, and engines I say it's fine.

[Chaemyerelis]

Random stats on items has always been in games for one reason. To artificially inflate the time it takes for a player to get the BiS item. 

That's it. In reality there's no choice, options or build diversity based in random stats. There's always the top, acceptable and sub par.

Thinking otherwise is just being misinformed.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2019-12-27 at 11:46 AM, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

 other games like Destiny and Borderlands, but now it seems DE has decided to just copy their competitor's approach to game design. That makes me sad.

Was going for a great post here until you said this ^

Warframe has done much worse then the games you "listed" has ever done and will ever do. both games you farm for a "God Roll" as you call it and you'll be done with it. Same with any other grind. Cuz unlike Warframe, you can't get something back if you get a reward you didn't want. Only tiny amount resources (like 100 wroth, not 10,000, 100)

With my experience playing D2, I've always only had to grind about a Day, at most to get the "God-Roll" weapon I want. That's right a single weapon, that unlike Warframe doesn't really make any difference, most G-roles are just your common "Extra damage on kill/int-reload". You want that weapon in D2, go farm it, you get it. It might not be the perfect stats you want in a single row, but part of the "god roll" will still be there.

 

[George_PPS]

 

On 2019-12-27 at 3:46 AM, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Part of the appeal of Warframe for me was the fact that you didn't have to worry about grinding a mission a million times to get a god roll - once you got the gun you wanted, once you got the mods you wanted, that was it. You could move on and proceed with the game. It wasn't that bad of a grind. Once you finally got Heavy Caliber from the Orokin Derelict, you never had to try to get a better version of it. You never got stuck farming The Sergeant on Phobos for the perfect Mag Chassis after getting getting dozens of inferior versions. Sure, you might get a little stuck trying to get the item in the first place, but it was rarely an issue, and once you got it, you had it. Riven Mods were a surprise, but they are very optional, and at least have the neat feature of being able to pick which roll to keep when you reroll them. Also, since Kuva is so plentiful, it's not really that much of a grind anyway if you're hunting the perfect roll. Kuva weapons... well, aside from all the glaring, blatant flaws with the Lich system, you can at least replace the bonus with a better one if you find a better one, and more importantly, Kuva weapons are just a handful of special weapons that only exist as a special bonus to a certain branch of the game. Railjack stuff is very, very different.

Railjack's randomized stats are a big deal because they are a part of every aspect of Railjack. Reactors, weapons, and avionics (to a lesser degree) all have different variations, you can get 10 Bulkheads without getting a good Bulkhead. Imagine doing a ton of Void Fissures, finally getting that Loki Prime Systems, but it's a cruddy Lavan instead of a glorious Zetki. Beyond the Sigma Series, all Railjack components have totally random stats bonuses that cannot be transferred to already-owned versions, and they have wildly different ranges in their possible stat values. You could get dozens of terrible Reactors before you get one that has enough to put on all the Avionics you need. If Railjack worked like the rest of the game, there would be no randomization at all. Railjack isn't "in tune" with the rest of the game, it's an entirely different flavor of grind. The three different Houses should be all the variation there is. With the new system, Railjack is 10x of a bigger grind. The lack of random stats is a big reason why I prefer Warframe over other games like Destiny and Borderlands, but now it seems DE has decided to just copy their competitor's approach to game design. That makes me sad.

The worst thing of the current design/update trend is that no matter how hard you grind for what, it can get reset and all players' time and efforts are then trashed. Most players can accept a grinding system that keeps getting better and better and NOT get reset. I can't stand this stats reset/nerfing for the sake of balance (for what in a PvE?).  Many  players can't either. So many players have left and never came back. That's why player count is not growing as other games have grown  since 2017-2018 as DE implements numerous nerfs and damages to  mechanics/weapons players love to use and have fun. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by George_PPS

[AkyFenrir]

Le 27/12/2019 à 13:58, Anduvriel a dit :

So normally you will have to actually think about the mods you put, you will have to shoot more than one bullet to kill something and so on. Lets call that the basis of railjack experience. You grab best dojo stuff, grab all the mods from missions and have fun. The cost of that experience will be the lowest of them all and it will not include any random stat grind. Just the usual warframe resource grind.

Now we have those hardcores to please. They will have everything in 2 weeks and will totally lose interest cause they will not feel powerful enough for those hours they dish out. Lets give them a grindfest that works in more hardcore games so they will feel more powerful than other groups, but will have to grind their lives for it. Thats what random stats are for. They are not only aquired as 2% reward (very rare in warframe), but also incorporate a skewed to bottom numbers, high range random stats that vary from utter shyt to ungodly. 

You can say you don't like that aproach, that you feel obliged to enter the grindfest, but you actually don't. I kinda want to see this "trial" to go through, to see how it pans out. Its been two weeks only, give it some time.. 

I've a the bad feeling you've got the idea that hardcore gaming is just about RNG... it's not... if the gameplay isn't enjoyable it won't work. At this point Railjack isn't enjoyable for me. A good gameplay loop is what makes games good for hardcore gamers... Is Railjack a good gameplay loop? As far as I'm concerned no it isn't. Playing archwing with a bigger ship isn't revolutionary or anything... it's just a new style. And Archwing was one of the least enjoyed game mode in the game... Let that sink in... They made a new mode based on the least liked game mode they ever made...

Le 27/12/2019 à 14:06, Drachnyn a dit :

The key difference to Borderlands and Diablo is that in those games the random loot you get is instantly usable. In warframe you have to spend resources, quite a lot actually on wreckage. Even worse you dont get all your resources back if you scrap it because you found a purely better version. Meaning you actually get punished for repairing a non optimal version. Either wreckage needs to have fixed stats or they need to drop in working condition and in greater amounts.

Well if we're talking about the borderlands 3... that game was so bad it's hilarious... every legendaries being world drops is so ridiculous there is no words to describe it. Would say this ridiculous cost to repair RNG based loot is boring... I'm not building anything because I feel i'll get something better eventually and won't have the ressource to build it! Nice design i guess...

Le 27/12/2019 à 16:58, Vox_Preliator a dit :

Welcome to way back when Rivens were first introduced.  This is almost exactly my argument against them, and I was dismissed because people wanted their slot machines to make their weapons 0.2% more powerful than they already are if they hit the jackpot or pay an obscene amount of platinum to someone who did.

Weirdly, I'm actually pretty okay with Railjack's implementation, it's an entirely standalone system that began with randomized stats and is designed in such a way.  I only really have two issues with it: One is that Outriders commonly and only drop Zekti parts whlie Crewships rarely drop other parts (I think?  Maybe they also drop Zekti only, I could've sworn I got a Lavan part from one), and other parts are rare mission rewards which causes Zekti to be the vast majority of parts dropped which skews the whole "Get a bunch of random parts of all sorts of types and choose the ones you want to use" thing.  The other is the 12 hour wait on repairs, I don't even mind the repair cost or the 50% refund, because you aren't replacing parts often enough to make that loss significant, but the best way to build a different part is to dismantle your old part, leaving you without that part until it's finished repairing.

If there was a more even spread of House drops and the repair time was like a tenth or less of what it currently is, I don't think I'd have any qualms with this system.

Well rivens were the cherry on the cake... You could do really well without them... Try doing something nice without a good Vidar Reactor... Well you can't 🙂

Le 27/12/2019 à 17:00, trst a dit :

The problem is that over the years players have spoken very loud and very clearly as to what they're interested in when we get an update: rewards, and nothing else.

You can see this trend on Steam Charts where every update players would come in and most if not all would be gone within a month. Pair that with the discussions found on every social platform for the game (these forums, the subreddit, even from the WF partners, etc) where you're finding constant complaints of there being nothing to do and the glorious buzzword that is "content drought".

And people can't go bringing up the other buzzword of "sustainable content" because this trend continued regardless of what content the game got. Be it PvP, end-game content, the open worlds, anything people would get their rewards and be gone. Even when the content was exactly what the community wanted to be added. Even with Railjack which launched all of 22 days ago we've already had a lot of people hit cap Intrinsics, grid upgrades, finished the Veil, gotten the Shedu, etc yet within this group there are still people playing because they want their max reactor drop, if we didn't have those in the game then a lot of these people would have already stopped playing entirely and by next week we'd have hit "content drought" all over again.

Randomized stat rolls only exist to pad out gameplay, this isn't a secret. But Warframe as a live service with ongoing development needs player retention and the community has made it clear that they want more rewards. However much people might not want randomized rolls put into the game this is a win/win addition as far as DE should be concerned as it's both what they and the community wants.

We're so reward oriented we fought back against these "umbra shards" implementation... because it was completely useless ! There's no point in wasting time for something that will never be farmed ever ! Rewards are nice but you kinda need them to be nice by themselves...

Le 27/12/2019 à 19:48, peterc3 a dit :

That DE is copying games with much larger user bases? This is hipster nonsense. I liked Warframe before it had any chance of being popular...

Well i'm a founder so ... yeah i liked the game when it was it's own thing... You're connection with these games is so big you don't even consider something different is what we're looking for... Why playing Warframe if i can get a better experience in a game with a "much larger user bases"?

Le 27/12/2019 à 21:41, TiltingTenno a dit :

You kind of just proved the OP's point right here. Some games rely upon this lottery roll drop system and the players are okay with it.  Warframe players have been attracted to Warframe precisely because it did NOT require this.

What is the average expected, and nearly guaranteed (99%, 99.9%, and 99.99%), drop rates for a 90+ avionics reactor? 

That would be my question too...

Le 27/12/2019 à 22:36, Vyra a dit :

Well, i don't get why people need the endgame equip just in the first few runs...
It feels okay to get the Space Battle stuff slowly, this way i have reasons to go there over and over again...

Hell no one has rank 10 yet and they complain about not having ALL best stuff already.. okay...

And how is this even DE being greedy for money? you cant buy Vidar/Zetki Reactor MK III in the Market ...

Ok I'll try to explain it to you 🙂

We didn't need the endgame equipment for Earth mission, your suggestion is a nice strawman here 🙂

You're totally free to experience the game at your own pace, there's no need to impose it to other players though...

 

We're not complaining about having the maxed stuff available... We're complaining about the fact moding is lock behind a ridiculous reactor grind...

Le 28/12/2019 à 17:35, ixidron92 a dit :

Other than Chinese gatchas, no serious MMO uses randomized stats. All have random loot for sure, but not randomized stats. 

Well... they do... WOW use this "warforged" thing ? I mean... if you've no idea about MMOs don't bring them in discussion...

Le 28/12/2019 à 22:54, taiiat a dit :

and that part that made it 'different' was also perhaps part of why Players for many years have had little to nothing to do in the game.

not that this is the only way to give Players something to do over a long period of time, but well Warframe hasn't really provided any alternatives to that to make content have some longevity so that something can take mental priority over the repetitiveness.

 

and on the flip side, the game over years still asked you to play a Mission hundreds of times, it's just that 99% of the time you got nothing until you finally got the item you were looking for.
is that really better perse than having a gradient of rewards? is a gradient of 1-100 every time you play worse than always getting 100 1/50 times that you play?

Warframe has always had RNG, just in a form where 90% of the time you get nothing or not what you wanted.

 

on another side of the fence, i would not complain at all if every Video Game copied the Endgame grinding scene from The Division. it's perfect. it has the longevity via Randomization but still gives you the tools to direct your stuff in the direction you want, all in due time. it either drops the way you want it or if it drops somewhat close you can spend Resources to make it into what you want, or you could technically take any ol' random thing and spend Resources to make it into what you want though that is extremely expensive.
The Division, the best game that almost nobody knows about.

 

- - - - - 

once that is perhaps dealt with, then we can look to.... the destabilized landscape of Ship Parts and Weapons, and that most of them don't offer useful/interesting alternatives to each other, with there being easy, clear winners. in each Part Slot, there is one item that is just overall the best, and the two other Houses are uninteresting or throwaway items that you may keep for a short time but only until the desired House drops and you use that instead after.
Railjack shouldn't be like that - these House variants should actually be compelling to each other? the Stat differences should be strong enough and the right kind of differences, so that you actually stop and think "hmm, i'm not sure which one i want, i'll try them all and maybe i'll keep them for different situations" or something like that.

 I share your opinion about RNG in warframe...

As far as i'm concerned... i would rather get nothing than a downgrade... Downgrades feel awful, like hey you could have got something good but nooo you got something useless haha! I'm feeling trolled by developpers using that looting method ... Unless if there's something to do with those downgrades but that's not even the case... Dirrac are a fixed ressource anyway...

-----

Never played the division so...

------

That's the problem right ? If there's only one good option why bother to create different low tiers one ?

[taiiat]

13 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

As far as i'm concerned... i would rather get nothing than a downgrade... Downgrades feel awful, like hey you could have got something good but nooo you got something useless haha! I'm feeling trolled by developpers using that looting method ... Unless if there's something to do with those downgrades but that's not even the case... Dirrac are a fixed ressource anyway...

-----

Never played the division so...

------

That's the problem right ? If there's only one good option why bother to create different low tiers one ?

that's fair enough, the stuff that drops being useful in some way still helps a lot with this type of system. going the copy Division way would mean that you can get Resources from your drops that would let you modify items later. so even if taking a distant style of that rather than direct, i agreed with an idea i saw of deconstructing Blueprints giving you some Crafting Resources. that means random Blueprints are still useful, as they'll make it easier for you to Craft the item when you get the good version of it. which Division does also offer, via that item drops can be either sold for money or deconstructed for Resources - both sides of which are useful.
even then it's painted a bit thin compared to Division, but it would be better than now.

Division is great if it's the sort of game you're into. so long as a Sticky Cover, 3rd person Shooter is something you like. where Cover is always relevant but you aren't required to always be in it (Enemies dangerous enough that you want to use Cover, but you can still advance and move around out of Cover if you need to). one just must remember that Division is a l00t game first, a Shooter second. that is to say that TTK on Enemies isn't like 200Milliseconds, by default, both your skill and your Gear will determine your capabilities in Combat Weapons or Abilities or otherwise. other people have said things like 'it's an RPG first, Shooter second' and that's certainly true. the Shooter aspect still feels good if you ask me, however.

yeah, the balance between the Houses for almost all types of Ship Parts/Weapons kind've sabotages the system. with most of the possible choices just being straight up not good. which would be like if for Damage Mods for our Guns, that 3/4 of the Mods weren't just not as good as some other Mods but just weren't that good even compared to nothing at all.
almost complete lack of Extended Range models, some Status Effects just being objectively bad (*cough* Fire), Crits vs Status either not swinging enough in each direction or not offering strong enough Hybrid middlegrounds... Et Cetera.

Edited January 2, 2020 by taiiat

[(PSN)BR_WICKED]

Avionics capacity shouldn't be tied to RNG.

Why bother farming Dirac and avionics that I can't use?... I'm done with railjack

[AltheusV]

On 2019-12-28 at 9:39 PM, ixidron92 said:

This is literally why I play Warframe. I do not like nor want a million layers of RNG preventing me from progressing. I want to invest time, effort and resources, not play the #*!%ing lotto.

I would have been fine with RNG stats if we could use spare copies and/or resources to boost the stats, but I won't accept RNG stats without any kind of hard fallback mechanic. That's the reason why I killed 4 liches and quit playing that system. The RNG everything was too unappealing to me. That's why I'm basically pondering right now if I should spend more time grinding the Railjack system or just give up and wait for the new war, and that's why I'm not dropping another freaking cent if the current trend continues.

Railjack is fun. I have fun piloting my ship, destroying enemy fighters, blowing up crewships with my BFG, but every time I get to the mission reward, I just want to punch the screen. I'm not making progress. I am stuck, and it's not because I'm not investing time and effort, it's because a #*!%ing machine decided I can't progress any further because the dice didn't roll in my favor.

Agreeing with you entirely, I'll skip the whole grindyness by using only stock parts from the clan research, accepting some nice things when they come and not deliberately trying to get better stuff.

I won't grind for anything below a 10% chance.

I think DE should take the randomness of the grind out, upgrade everything that already exists with a random chance of how good it to 80% of the maximum possible value and lock all new ones at that value. That way, those who spent their time and platinum (I refuse to use the term invested for a game) on something shiny get to keep it but everyone else doesn't waste their time trying to get the obscure item with the even more obscure drop chance.

[Anduvriel]

On 2020-01-01 at 12:47 PM, AkyFenrir said:

I've a the bad feeling you've got the idea that hardcore gaming is just about RNG... it's not... 

The what? Where did that "just" came from besides your imagination? Next time read please, dont "feel". 

The point you made later is a strange one. If you don't enjoy a games loop you basically shouldn't play it, and thats a period. I mean why would you play something you don't enjoy on the very basic level? If you don't like those archwing dogfights, shooting from railjack, piloting etc don't play it at all. Its clearly not a gamemode for you. Doesn't matter if you are a hardcore, casual or what ever. 

I mean, i didnt enjoy conclave, i played few games i never looked at it afterwards. My friends have the same with eidolons, some never did more than few runs to check it.. and the rewards there are quite good. I honestly dont care at all what rewards DE put in conclave, i play warframe for 1.3k hours and never even checked them... 

I dont understand it. Am i missing something? 

You are saying the railjack modding is locked behind that holy grail 90+avionics vidar reactor. I am 100% sure its not.

I did veil in a starter 20 without a problem, i did most of my runs in friends 50-60ish reactor one without half of the capacity used and giggle mods.. and the beast is not parked 20km from the action its in the very center of it, one of the giggle mods is a battle ram, guess what my pilot friend does with it. We are having fun and never failed a mission. We never ever felt we need that holy grail. 

You will be totally fine with 50 and thats a non random stat dojo reactor. 

That was the entire point of my post. You don't need the railjack parts with random stats, any of them. Its like saying you need 4 forma potatoed equinox to run earth extermination, or a catchmoon with a riven to kill alad V..  Do you? 

[Anduvriel]

On 2019-12-28 at 10:39 PM, ixidron92 said:

This is literally why I play Warframe. I do not like nor want a million layers of RNG preventing me from progressing. I want to invest time, effort and resources, not play the #*!%ing lotto.

I would have been fine with RNG stats if we could use spare copies and/or resources to boost the stats, but I won't accept RNG stats without any kind of hard fallback mechanic. That's the reason why I killed 4 liches and quit playing that system. The RNG everything was too unappealing to me. That's why I'm basically pondering right now if I should spend more time grinding the Railjack system or just give up and wait for the new war, and that's why I'm not dropping another freaking cent if the current trend continues.

Railjack is fun. I have fun piloting my ship, destroying enemy fighters, blowing up crewships with my BFG, but every time I get to the mission reward, I just want to punch the screen. I'm not making progress. I am stuck, and it's not because I'm not investing time and effort, it's because a #*!%ing machine decided I can't progress any further because the dice didn't roll in my favor.

To be honest i wrote it including railjack stuffXD. My point is you don't need those random stats to have fun and i see you are having that so.. great? 

Being unable to progress and being unable to find an upgrade is two different things. I am quite sure you have no problems with any of the veil missions, what you lack is a more opie reactor, guns etc.. 

I fully understand your point about upgrades. There is a problem with an upgrade system thou. Let me elaborate on an example - kuva lich weapons. 

Lets say each time you dissolve a kuva lich weapon into the one you have, you upgrade the bonus stat on it. Lets say all weapons start at zero % and each upgrade adds 1%.. Thats too low right? 60 weapons to get to max 60%.. So dull, so unrewarding, hema incomming.. Ok lets say 15%.. You need 4 weapons.. That would end too quickly wouldn't it and its still just a 15%? Is there a correct number? Tell me which one..

I can tell you.. no matter what the number would be it would be bad. It would feel dull and unrewarding always.. Because it resembles work.

The probably acceptable for warframe would be probably 20% or 30% (13 weapons, 3-4 of each weapon, 39-52 liches total.. ). That would be a month or two, a lot less with trading.

The problem is they want it to last 3 months at least. Tell me how to do that (lets assume its a fun experience you spent 2-3h per day, i know how it is now, but lets)? 

You work towards something, the reward is usually somewhere else, but looting, being rewarded feels great only if its a great thing you looted. I know it sounds cliche, but it actually mimics the brain chemistry. Thats why you can be a gambling addict. Getting a huge win comes with a huge dopamine kick.. Which you feel, remember and it makes you happy for longer.

That is why most if not all looters concentrate on rng systems, because it is currently the only longer lasting grind system that makes you happy, the grind is edible. 

Warframe for a very long time tried a system more biased to work towards rewards. The problem is it doesn't work very well anymore. Why? Its hard to say.. 

The content feels rushed, unfinished, bugs multiply in expotential scale, forum is filled with content droughts posts.. That is the reality DE faces, we want bigger and bigger updates with everlasting content without power creep, polished and engaging, and fun with great rewards you can get in few days of playing and you have them forever.. 

It contradicts itself. No one made a pve game like that, not one that lasts for so long. At least i dont know of such. Pvp is one way to handle this, but wf community basically said a big no to any of that... And pve is done usually through RNG and/or some form of destruction of what you have (seasonal resets, durability, item destruction, resource caps etc) . 

They try a new aproach, a new mode (almost a new game) with brand new resources (that bilions of ferrite you have is a real problem) with far lower chances for rewards (vidar reactor is 30-100 avionics with 5 additional mods, would you feel better if they made 70*5 reactors each with a different name and the best "holy grail vidar reactor" would have 2%/350=0.006% drop chance). 

That is the sad reality they face. For me they did one thing right. There is a non random way to be able to progress through content. The dojo stuff is not weak, its sufficient to have fun. If the gamemode is fun to play.. Do we really should care that much that we wont have the holy grail tomorrow? 

[Educated_Beast]

Yes, it is the Skinner box game design philosophy.  DE has sold out.  Enjoy the game for what it is. It don't spend to much time or invest more than you know you should be.  

 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

I was one of those players that could not get the last Khora part for a very long time. But finally one day, weeks later it finally dropped. And I knew that despite having bad RNG that my Khora was the same as every other Khora in the game. It was a reward for an overly long grind but it was finished and I could finally play ESO instead.

Railjack doesn't respect my time like that. If RNG is being especially fickle it will not give you the drop and when you do finally get it, it could be a terrible roll that is strictly worse than other options that are already bad. And if you do finally get that good roll, it's still worse than other players' and you don't feel accomplished for getting it.

And why can't we spend Dirac to upgrade a bad roll? Or at the very least reroll it like rivens? At least that would give players something to use Dirac on once their grid and avionics are maxed.