Could Warframe learn a thing or two from DOOM: eternal? (slight rant)

[Ikyr0]

Sure. all games can borrow from others games. that being said, Doom Eternal is an overhyped and very average game. Doom 2016 did just about everything better. Also, why would I pay $80 for 15hrs of fun? Lel.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Ikyr0

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

21 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

I do think Warframe is in need of a bigger overhaul than just mere balancing fixes. As someone stated above, the core gameplay loop should be looked at or even reworked from the ground up. There is no point on building on a poor, broken, or outdated foundation.

this times infinite. They can revise as much as possible, but as scarlet spear has proven, they NEED to revisit and significantly rework the loop to be much more engaging, fresh, fun and can be replayed with new twists added. 

I believe some of the details of doom eternal and other great games hold inspiration that would be the key to warframe creating a more fun and re-playable game play loop

 

Also, DE the company. Doom Eternal. Acronym for doom eternal: DE

Coincidence!? probably but still cool..... 

[kevoisvevo]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Do you think you're the first person to say that one game should do what x other game did?

How would you feel if you were dating someone and they said "My ex did this better than you, take a page from his book teehee" lmao

well a good partner would learn from it and try to get better. a bad one, well lets just say it's better not to interact ever again and go the separate ways. saved me from 4 bad relationships in the past lol 

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

5 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Do you think you're the first person to say that one game should do what x other game did?

How would you feel if you were dating someone and they said "My ex did this better than you, take a page from his book teehee" lmao

Can we not learn from others? Especially when they do some things we do, but better?

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

I would not say it has to either be really challenging (close to doom) or easy like it currently is, I'm saying it would be nice to have an option to bump the difficulty. Think of now as easy mode and my D:E (doom eternal) suggestions as medium or hard. In order to add more incentive, the higher the difficulty, the better the rewards and higher the drop chances for rarer items/mods.

In Warframe, though, we want too many incompatible things at once. We want difficulty, but we have so many tools that shut off difficulty completely (invis, invuln, DR, hard CC...*) and are encouraged by mission rewards (and a fear of failing and losing them all) to use those "isntant win" tools. We want the enemies to be harder, but we rage against any kind of player-side nerf (Catchmoon), and we rage against enemy-side buffs that get in the way of player-side "instant win" tools (Nullifiers). So we realize that, say, invisibility makes many missions trivial, but we would oppose if invis was given a percent chance of being seen, and we'd oppose enemies receiving tools to see our invis frames.

^{*These elements are not problematic in and of themselves, but when they dominate the mission to the point of removing all difficulty, we have to realize that a lack of difficulty is caused by player-side power.}

 

Let's think very specifically. What makes Doom: Eternal challenging?

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Let's think very specifically. What makes Doom: Eternal challenging?

You sound like you’ve got a specific aspect in your thoughts. What’s on your mind?

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

De problem has already been solved...they lack overall cohesive direction and curator to the lore. Talent is one thing they do not lack. 

Though A talented team who can't do the fundamental things...loses in the end!

Enemies need to be turned into chess pieces. after that they only need throw out configurations the gameplay/ emergence will happen?

Archwing should be a blast to fly by itself with nothing to do.

Fix these things they will succeed, continue to neglect...well we can already see where things have been going...must we test the fire to see if it's hot DE?

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

5 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

Every time warframe tries to "learn" things from other games, it seems to perpetually result in completely terrible results, because DE never actually understands how to make those mechanics work, so we just get half-assed things shoved in that don't add anything.

Cough, liches and nemesis system, cough

 

 

 

(Hope I did that right lol.

[BRZZAFK]

2小时前 , (NSW)FlameDivinity 说:

Can we not learn from others? Especially when they do some things we do, but better?

Maybe try to said that to your girl/boyfriend and see what happen? I mean if we talking about learning from other then you basically can learn from anything, even from bad things. But if we talking about lecturing other to learn then. That never end well.

[supernils]

with the recent changes Corpus and infested got a lot stronger. Without a tank frame or cc you're toast in high level. your damage does not get you outta there. Or try solo mode, like in Doom, and we speak again.

[supernils]

with the recent changes Corpus and infested got a lot stronger. Without a tank frame or cc you're toast in high level. your damage does not get you outta there. Or try solo mode, like in Doom, and we speak again.

[supernils]

with the recent changes Corpus and infested got a lot stronger. Without a tank frame or cc you're toast in high level. your damage does not get you outta there. Or try solo mode, like in Doom, and we speak again.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

Warframe could learn and thing or two from Anthem at this point. .. at lest they know when it's time to do a complete overhaul. ...

[(NSW)Greybones]

Hey, didn’t you make a “Last post” recently, @moostar95?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

They are two very different games. Warframe doesn’t need to borrow mechanics from Doom Eternal. As it would just be a nerf to everything.

I love the gameplay of Doom, but it’s mechanics should stay as far away from Warframe as possible.

[Teridax68]

While usually it's not advisable to put any two games together and say one should be more like the other, I do think the OP's comparisons are valid, because they rely on specific points of commonality between two otherwise very different games. Both Doom: Eternal and Warframe offer a power fantasy, for example, and in fact D:E leans even more heavily on it by constantly bringing up just how terrifyingly powerful the Slayer is. However, Doom still manages to deliver gameplay that can be adjusted to be challenging, and even when on easier difficulty modes is still engaging and interactive. By contrast, Warframe's gameplay is notoriously unchallenging even in content that is supposed to present a challenge, to the point where it's usually so trivial a geared-up player can go through it on autopilot. Thus, the conclusion we can derive from Doom is that a power fantasy is not an excuse for a lack of challenge, and a game can offer both a power fantasy and stimulating gameplay.

I think the other observation one can make is that Doom: Eternal does in fact have better coherence between its movement system and its level design: Warframe is known for its parkour system, arguably the best movement system in video game history... yet that parkour system only works to its full potential in a handful of tilesets. Most of the levels we run are made up of cramped environments with very little verticality, and our combat not only doesn't really tie into parkour, but often discourages us from moving and shooting at the same time due to the many ways we're made to stand still. Similarly, the enemy design in D:E is genuinely much more varied, despite Warframe's much larger number of units, and their design also encourages the player to move around constantly. Thus, the lesson to be learned here is that Warframe's environment and enemy design ought to shift to complement its movement system, rather than stifle it.

Really, I don't think these are big revelations, because these are conclusions people have drawn before, independently of Doom's existence. However, the release of Doom: Eternal does shine a new light on these long-standing issues with Warframe, and I think easily dispels certain myths some of us have chosen to weave around the state of the game's design. Specifically, many of us seem to have chosen to believe that Warframe cannot afford to offer non-trivial combat because it would run counter to the game's power fantasy, a design philosophy that makes no sense on its own, but comes across as all the more blinkered when one takes into account the many, many games out there that offer both a power fantasy and a challenge. For sure, one can point out that essentially any game is a very different beast compared to Warframe, but that alone is not grounds to dismiss valuable lessons to be learned when appropriate. While certain drastic changes would likely be needed, Warframe could orient itself towards providing a genuine challenge without compromising on its power fantasy (I personally believe it could even make the power fantasy greater in that manner), and could definitely stand to update some of its older level, mission, and enemy design to better accommodate our parkour, particularly as doing so has already proven to be tremendously successful with The Jovian Concord update.

[(XBOX)Baski7786]

Yes. That won't happen

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

I feel like you missed the point when you tried to compare these 2 games. Its like me saying "wow, Destiny has really fun gunplay, why cant warframe have really good gunplay?" Sure, it points something out, but its not very constructive or really adds to the conversation. 

Why is Doom good is something you have to ask yourself first. Then take to account everything, from the way to the game is made to the developers intent. For example, speed. Doom is built around speed because its based around the idea that you should be able to dodge most points of damage, and you should be able to recover from the damage through the gameplay systems given to you. I feel like thats one gameplay system warframe lacks, is the encouragement of movement. Its always much easier to just stand in one place and shoot and tank every bullet that comes your way. Youre not really encouraged to get out and fight, as theres a lot of stuns, high damage enemies, and other BS that gets in the way that warframe's gameplay is paced. Like whats the point of bullet jumping, aim gliding, and wall running up to enemies when i can just press Mesa's 4 and be done with it.

A lot of warframe's system is just wack, i think most people are aware of that at this point. It gets tiring reading the same things over and over, and no one really has got that much good points that can push warframe out of it's rut.

[HugintheCrow]

10 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Do you think you're the first person to say that one game should do what x other game did?

How would you feel if you were dating someone and they said "My ex did this better than you, take a page from his book teehee" lmao

Except OP is comparing products, not people. If you treat a videogame (a product on the market, with a price tag, regardless of it's "free to play" status) the same as a human being with emotions and personality, you need to rethink your life choices.

Emotionally tying yourself to a brand is a bad idea. Disconnect yourself.

[supernils]

Warframe enemies don't require a lot of tactical adaptation, that's the problem. The only ones on top of my mind are those with the big shield sphere around them, where you need to get inside.

Then maybe you have the ancient infested, and the heavy gunners, which don't require special tactic, just priority mow down.

From time to time a Grineer uses one of those turrets, that's kinda neat because you have to get behind him. That could be another option, a regular enemy that you have to stagger to kill him from behind.

Or an infested where you have to destroy weak points before you can kill him. Or even a Corpus unit with the same mechanic, a device carried on the belt that boosts his shield by a factor of 100.

Or an emeny that absolutely forces you to use melee to block/deflect his attacks to get near him without dying, or maybe some sort of ray that pushes you back would be less frustrating than pure kill damage.

Things like that, Warframe lacks.

When I played Destiny 2 (nother game comparison) for a tiny little bit I liked that you got several Mini Bosses in the levels, like in MMORPGs. In Warframe it's just trash mob hordes it feels.

Edited March 27, 2020 by supernils
added 1 idea for enemy

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, moostar95 said:

nice, I got a stalker. which is a rare thing to say. 

Easy there. I just saw and posted in your last topic, is all. What’s kept you around?

[Teljaxx]

Really, the entire reason Doom is so much more satisfying than Warframe is simple: Balance. Id clearly had a well though out plan that they followed from beginning to end with both the new Doom games. This allowed them to make sure that every part of the game fits together properly. The amount of damage the weapons do matches the enemy health, the amount of ammo fits the player damage output and enemy counts, the amount of health pickups matches how dangerous the levels are, etc. These are all important things to make a game properly balanced, and therefore challenging and engaging. And DE has done none of them with Warframe.

They have clearly never had any kind of long term plans for this game. Every new thing they add was just some crazy idea they came up with and said "why not?". There are so many mechanics that have no reason to exist beyond being "cool", so there is no connection or balance between them. Like how, as @Teridax68 mentioned, movement and map design conflict with each other. This is why powercreep has become such a problem, and creating any kind of endgame is impossible. DE never bothered to decide on a specific point to balance the game's challenge around, so there isn't one. They have tried to hide behind the infinite enemy scaling in endless missions to cover this up, but that isn't nearly enough. You can't balance an infinite scale, and you can't have an endgame if there is no end.

Plus, since DE has been making the same game for 7 years, they have simply been piling everything new on top of all their old mistakes. And, thanks to their complete lack of planning, every update has no regard for how it might break or unbalance the old parts of the game. This is one of the main advantages sequels, like Doom Eternal, have over "live services" like Warframe. They let the developers hit the big reset button every once in a while, so they can undo past mistakes, instead of just sweeping all their spaghetti code under the rug and hoping no one notices.

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

3 hours ago, supernils said:

Warframe enemies don't require a lot of tactical adaptation, that's the problem. The only ones on top of my mind are those with the big shield sphere around them, where you need to get inside.

Then maybe you have the ancient infested, and the heavy gunners, which don't require special tactic, just priority mow down.

From time to time a Grineer uses one of those turrets, that's kinda neat because you have to get behind him. That could be another option, a regular enemy that you have to stagger to kill him from behind.

Or an infested where you have to destroy weak points before you can kill him. Or even a Corpus unit with the same mechanic, a device carried on the belt that boosts his shield by a factor of 100.

Or an emeny that absolutely forces you to use melee to block/deflect his attacks to get near him without dying, or maybe some sort of ray that pushes you back would be less frustrating than pure kill damage.

Things like that, Warframe lacks.

When I played Destiny 2 (nother game comparison) for a tiny little bit I liked that you got several Mini Bosses in the levels, like in MMORPGs. In Warframe it's just trash mob hordes it feels.

Exactly! 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

While usually it's not advisable to put any two games together and say one should be more like the other, I do think the OP's comparisons are valid, because they rely on specific points of commonality between two otherwise very different games. Both Doom: Eternal and Warframe offer a power fantasy, for example, and in fact D:E leans even more heavily on it by constantly bringing up just how terrifyingly powerful the Slayer is. However, Doom still manages to deliver gameplay that can be adjusted to be challenging, and even when on easier difficulty modes is still engaging and interactive. By contrast, Warframe's gameplay is notoriously unchallenging even in content that is supposed to present a challenge, to the point where it's usually so trivial a geared-up player can go through it on autopilot. Thus, the conclusion we can derive from Doom is that a power fantasy is not an excuse for a lack of challenge, and a game can offer both a power fantasy and stimulating gameplay.

I think the other observation one can make is that Doom: Eternal does in fact have better coherence between its movement system and its level design: Warframe is known for its parkour system, arguably the best movement system in video game history... yet that parkour system only works to its full potential in a handful of tilesets. Most of the levels we run are made up of cramped environments with very little verticality, and our combat not only doesn't really tie into parkour, but often discourages us from moving and shooting at the same time due to the many ways we're made to stand still. Similarly, the enemy design in D:E is genuinely much more varied, despite Warframe's much larger number of units, and their design also encourages the player to move around constantly. Thus, the lesson to be learned here is that Warframe's environment and enemy design ought to shift to complement its movement system, rather than stifle it.

Really, I don't think these are big revelations, because these are conclusions people have drawn before, independently of Doom's existence. However, the release of Doom: Eternal does shine a new light on these long-standing issues with Warframe, and I think easily dispels certain myths some of us have chosen to weave around the state of the game's design. Specifically, many of us seem to have chosen to believe that Warframe cannot afford to offer non-trivial combat because it would run counter to the game's power fantasy, a design philosophy that makes no sense on its own, but comes across as all the more blinkered when one takes into account the many, many games out there that offer both a power fantasy and a challenge. For sure, one can point out that essentially any game is a very different beast compared to Warframe, but that alone is not grounds to dismiss valuable lessons to be learned when appropriate. While certain drastic changes would likely be needed, Warframe could orient itself towards providing a genuine challenge without compromising on its power fantasy (I personally believe it could even make the power fantasy greater in that manner), and could definitely stand to update some of its older level, mission, and enemy design to better accommodate our parkour, particularly as doing so has already proven to be tremendously successful with The Jovian Concord update.

This is also true. So many other games use their parkour system as part of level design to make it more fun to move around! Warframe does not give you advantages to try using parkour for anything besides getting from point a to point be faster! Heck, being able to use bullet jump to at least DODGE lethal damage would be nice!

2 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Really, the entire reason Doom is so much more satisfying than Warframe is simple: Balance. Id clearly had a well though out plan that they followed from beginning to end with both the new Doom games. This allowed them to make sure that every part of the game fits together properly. The amount of damage the weapons do matches the enemy health, the amount of ammo fits the player damage output and enemy counts, the amount of health pickups matches how dangerous the levels are, etc. These are all important things to make a game properly balanced, and therefore challenging and engaging. And DE has done none of them with Warframe.

They have clearly never had any kind of long term plans for this game. Every new thing they add was just some crazy idea they came up with and said "why not?". There are so many mechanics that have no reason to exist beyond being "cool", so there is no connection or balance between them. Like how, as @Teridax68 mentioned, movement and map design conflict with each other. This is why powercreep has become such a problem, and creating any kind of endgame is impossible. DE never bothered to decide on a specific point to balance the game's challenge around, so there isn't one. They have tried to hide behind the infinite enemy scaling in endless missions to cover this up, but that isn't nearly enough. You can't balance an infinite scale, and you can't have an endgame if there is no end.

Plus, since DE has been making the same game for 7 years, they have simply been piling everything new on top of all their old mistakes. And, thanks to their complete lack of planning, every update has no regard for how it might break or unbalance the old parts of the game. This is one of the main advantages sequels, like Doom Eternal, have over "live services" like Warframe. They let the developers hit the big reset button every once in a while, so they can undo past mistakes, instead of just sweeping all their spaghetti code under the rug and hoping no one notices.

This is winner winner chicken dinner! I am all for nerfing our damage and readjusting enemy damage, heath, A.I, and what ever else to help make it feel more satisfying to fight the usual enemies. Gonna be honest, they need to redo the enemy types cause there as vast as an ocean but as deep as a puddle. 

Scarlet Spear proves just that as well. I have heard little to no praise for the event and know that all these new sentient enemies are probably not different enough since you probably can just mow them down with damage, nukes or Crowd Control LIKE EVERY OTHER ENEMY IN THIS GAME!!!

Honestly, it might be best to turn the upcoming new war into a full blown sequel to allow for DE to hit that big reset button. Only then could they remove the spaghetti code problem and do the needed changes to the game play loop to make warframe a lot more fun in the long run.

 

I like these Tenno. They know whats up.

Edited March 27, 2020 by (XB1)WafflyLearner89
giving credit where credit is due

[Lost_Cartographer]

The problems Warframe experiences in presenting challenge DOOM fixes in ways that would require Warframe to fundamentally change how it works.  And I'm not talking glory kills (which we get in parazon mercy kills if you let up on the trigger in time.)

First: Some enemies in Warframe have hit scan attacks.  EVERYTHING in Doom can be dodged.  Everything.  Ultra-Nightmare virtually hinges on the concept that you basically take no damage through the entire play through or take it so sparingly you can fully recover between every instance of being hit.  But back to Warframe - a lot of the enemy design is piss poor.  Mostly recolors with attacks that are either hitscan or still too fast to dodge if you're not already moving really fast and just very difficult to read (see - Toxic ancient aura, Napalm/Bombard projectile and AoE, etc.)  Basically look into a horde of 2-3 different silhouettes and spray into them.

Second: Because our equipment selection on any given mission is extremely limited, enemies have to be fairly generic by default.  DOOM can get away with all these interesting enemies partly because it KNOWS you're carrying a machine gun/rocklet rifle/sniper rifle, a shotgun/grenade launcher/gatling gun, rocket launcher with homing or remote detonation, plasma rifle with a lock down beam and an AoE blast, a railgun that can sweep a line of enemies or prime them to be a bomb, etc.  Warframe we get to carry 2 guns, a melee weapon, and on occasion a bigger gun that's cumbersome to equip and use. 

Ergo, Warframe suffers the same dilemma as most MMO's in that enemies have to be generically approached because it can't trust we're carrying a bow or an AoE weapon (even in the form of a warframe) at all times in the same way World of Warcraft can't really give Paladins all this awesome power against undead but make them so-so against everything else, they have to be generically powerful overall to work.  At best right now, Warframe can release more weapons with secondary attacks in the same vein as the Corinth or Fulmin where the fire modes feel like fundamentally different weapons as opposed to the Tiberon Prime or Kuva Hind, and DE is criminally NOT taking advantage of that approach in their weapon design.

Between these two elements I'd say the bulk of Warframe's challenge issues reveal themselves.  Yeah, being near god mode or locking down an entire tileset with CC also rails against the challenge, but they only exacerbate the core issue in that Warframe's combat is pretty flatly generic and "safe."  It's 1995 Doom... only even less methodical, more spammy and mindless.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Lost_Cartographer

[supernils]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

This is also true. So many other games use their parkour system as part of level design to make it more fun to move around! Warframe does not give you advantages to try using parkour for anything besides getting from point a to point be faster!

That's not completely true, in the Saturn (Jupiter?) tile set they revamped a couple of months ago they built in parts where you have to cross large gaps, wall run / bullet jump etc

I hope the Corpus tile set which they are currently revamping will have similar features but I really look forward to it because the Saturn revamp was an awesome job.