Why are the Condrix rewards so small compared to Murex?

[Rivyn]

I'm really noticing this issue today. Everybody is trying to do Murex, due to the better credit rewards, and few people are doing the ground assault. Now the few on the ground are tasked with supporting the 80 in space. If one mission needs the other to work, why is it only one side with has the better rewards, and the other so little?

[Miser_able]

I'm not entirely sure, one possible culprit could be lack of communication between 2 teams, one who made and balanced the space side, and the other who made and balanced the ground side. If they didn't communicate with each other (which would be even harder when you have to work from home) they could have not balanced around each other. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

@Rivyn Wile the Murex has somewhat a fixed value and limit amount of Murex you can kill in a single go, the Condrix missions are endless and the score awarded by each increases with each kill.

[Tyreaus]

Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

@Rivyn Wile the Murex has somewhat a fixed value and limit amount of Murex you can kill in a single go, the Condrix missions are endless and the score awarded by each increases with each kill.

I believe Condrix are limited to 17 per run. It booted me out when I got to 17, and the wiki says similar.

[kevoisvevo]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I believe Condrix are limited to 17 per run. It booted me out when I got to 17, and the wiki says similar.

True limited to 17 on ground and 5 in space

[Miser_able]

4 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

@Rivyn Wile the Murex has somewhat a fixed value and limit amount of Murex you can kill in a single go, the Condrix missions are endless and the score awarded by each increases with each kill.

It's not endless, it just goes much higher than the murex ships. 

Ships cap out at 5, condrix cap out at 17. Not sure why they chose 17 though, such an odd number. 

[trst]

Doesn't require keeping a Railjack alive, doesn't involve nearly as many Sentient spawns, doesn't have Raijack variant Grineer, and it's progress isn't restricted by another group's progress. Yet effort wise the space missions manage to be easier than ground missions thanks to killing never being required to complete a full run.

But the gains on ground missions can't be as much or more than space missions otherwise we're back to too many people doing ground. Although with the current system you would hope that people would be wise enough to switch to ground if they're waiting 10+ minutes between codes, you can't even complete a single full run at that pace.

Really it's unfortunate as when groups do work together the system is great. But when they don't the entire thing falls apart entirely.

[BiancaRoughfin]

41 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I believe Condrix are limited to 17 per run. It booted me out when I got to 17, and the wiki says similar.

Strange, friend of mine said it was endless, maybe he didnt reach the 17 him self, i know i havent yet (Almost did on the last run T-T ).

[taiiat]

the longer possible duration of the Planet Mission doesn't balance it out anyways, as the Space Mission is way, way, way faster. and considerably easier for Players with less Damage Gear since they don't have Condrix...es that they have to be able to Kill.

 

31 minutes ago, trst said:

But the gains on ground missions can't be as much or more than space missions otherwise we're back to too many people doing ground.

the #1 most logical fix?
actually create Squad Link. because Squad Link is a sham, it's not real. there is no link. 

you would expect, that it's like a Raid (in the sense that 8 Players are completing the same Objectives, not that it's a Raid, i want to be very clear on that), but separated into two groups.
one Group is on the Planet, one in Space. and they are directly tied to each other instead of literally not tied at all.
then the Objectives need to be adjusted a bit to let it work as that a Planet Squad feeds the Space Squad, but you want the each Squad to be able to affect the other Squads' performance in some way so that they can help if the other Squad isn't as experienced. the Railjack could be the perfect tool for that, in one direction, but there needs to be something in the other direction too.
hell, the 75,000Cr Players are spending from a Relay to support Squads? throw that crap away, have the other half of your Mission Squad be able to support you, but not by spending money on some ambiguous menu, but by actively doing something on their half of the Mission.

as this should be like a grandiose Sabotage Mission - Group A has a task to do and that lets Group B do their task. then a pair of Planet and Space work hand in hand, in a.... linked.... Squad.... and so share the Mission Score

 

 

i wasn't even excited for Squad Link before and i'm still :pikashocked: levels of disappointed in that it's totally fake.
(i'm not yelling at you, just quoting something important)

Edited March 28, 2020 by taiiat

[kierogonal]

Another reason might be to encourage people into doing the the railjack mission. I suspect DE heard people talking about doing the ground mission more than the railjack one and tried to balance the player spread through the mission rewards. When they showed the event off in the devstream, everybody was talking about like ground mission was going to be way more popular

[kierogonal]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

actually create Squad Link. because Squad Link is a sham, it's not real. there is no link.

This was the biggest surprise to me with the enveiling of this event. Squad link had been shown as two squads cooperating indirectly to achieve goals, completing tasks that aided the other squad to some bigger objective.

This isn't that. I'm not saying it's not still a technical achievement. But this is more just one squad adding numbers into a pool that another squad is taking from.

 

I (probably like others) was thinking more along the lines of having current mission types being expanded into squad link. The obvious example is survival, we all know the opening line from those missions. Our objective is to distract the enemy whilst a lone tenno operative raids their ship for supplies. Why not have a 1-4 player squad doing some sort of spy mission, sneaking into enemy bases and stealthily taking credits and resources from the enemy whilst a second squad is the distraction.

I understand that the way this is done is more free flowing. By not having the link you can have squads dropping in and out freely without impacting the other side, but that is not what I think most of us were expecting with squad linking

[binhthanhk2]

Ground assault actually have better rewards but not as fast and easy as the space one . also it requires you a organize group to actually done fast and efficiency , i can done all 17 condrix with only 20min , usually the same time as the ground assault. If not , it could take about 30min 

[Test-995]

16 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Strange, friend of mine said it was endless, maybe he didnt reach the 17 him self, i know i havent yet (Almost did on the last run T-T ).

That'd be the reason, it takes like 40min or so to reach 17 with PuG, too long for 70% of playerbase.

[Fire2box]

The space one is radically easy as well. asides being stuck at 25% which is really slow you can easily solo the space ones just doing range/duration limbo and while having good engines and the boost skill. 

 

Condrix forces you to damage it now which isn't that hard anymore for a full 17 round. The issue is killing sentient that are like lv 70+. A great team can do a condrix every 120 seconds or so. but the effort is far more and gives something like 400 less. 

[Leyers_of_facade]

Currently, 5 murex puts you at 1800, and so does 15 condrix (15 gives 1800, 17 gives 2295)

The question is... in the time to do 5 murex, can you do 15 condrix?

 

I think it probably depends on squad and what is available (space squad relies on having ground squads for codes)

[GPrime96]

12 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

That'd be the reason,too long for 70% of playerbase.

^^ Very true

[Radiofloyd]

1 hour ago, kierogonal said:

This was the biggest surprise to me with the enveiling of this event. Squad link had been shown as two squads cooperating indirectly to achieve goals, completing tasks that aided the other squad to some bigger objective.

This isn't that. I'm not saying it's not still a technical achievement. But this is more just one squad adding numbers into a pool that another squad is taking from.

 

I (probably like others) was thinking more along the lines of having current mission types being expanded into squad link. The obvious example is survival, we all know the opening line from those missions. Our objective is to distract the enemy whilst a lone tenno operative raids their ship for supplies. Why not have a 1-4 player squad doing some sort of spy mission, sneaking into enemy bases and stealthily taking credits and resources from the enemy whilst a second squad is the distraction.

I understand that the way this is done is more free flowing. By not having the link you can have squads dropping in and out freely without impacting the other side, but that is not what I think most of us were expecting with squad linking

With the way that things are, I am pretty sure that version of squad link is also complete. The issue is that if they did that, for this event specifically, things would be even more dire. If theres only one ground team, for example, you'd have to wait for the time it takes to kill a condrix to get a code. Scratch that, that would happen as long as there aren't exactly as many grounds as space (unless the timing just happens to be specifically right). If the requirement was 5 players minimum per time, the space team would lose out with only 1 ground player, etc. That's why I think it was necessary to add squad link in like that now. I do hope, however, that they do realize they had already found the solution to that loophole by having squad link not be necessary, but hugely beneficial (a mission that takes 30mins normally would take only 20, for example) for the next iterations of the concept.

[Randomeer]

The rewards are not small but they're extremely weighted towards later Condrix with last one giving 18x the amount the first one gives.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Randomeer

[Circle_of_Psi]

2 hours ago, kierogonal said:

Another reason might be to encourage people into doing the the railjack mission. I suspect DE heard people talking about doing the ground mission more than the railjack one and tried to balance the player spread through the mission rewards. When they showed the event off in the devstream, everybody was talking about like ground mission was going to be way more popular

And look where that got them.

[mrhapps]

i used to believe space team was better till about 4 of my runs bugged on round 3 forcing us to extract wasting most of our tine, it still takes 20-25 minutes do max out space missions

now i just do earth missions for the less buggy experience and i have gotten it down to 29 minutes with 2 friends. We do the full 17 waves in the 29 minutes, so i think for us earth is actually faster overall.

[o0Despair0o]

My guess would be that nobody likes RJ all that much so DE tries to force it by giving it better rewards than Ground.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, Rivyn said:

Everybody is trying to do Murex, due to the better credit rewards

 

Alright, let's do some fact checking here, see what's what.

First, both space mission and ground mission are capped. 5 Murex for space mission, 17 Condrix for ground mission. The total earnable points/credits for either is unbalanced in favour of the ground mission. Space earns you a total of 1800 points/credits while ground earns you 2395 points/credits.

Space mission requires 9 kill codes per Murex, meaning a total of 45 codes, ground mission grants 3 kill codes per Condrix, meaning a total of 51 kill codes are transmitted.

The difference between them is that the space missions are easy to cheese, because the only requirements are to survive with a Railjack until you can park it under the Murex to hide, and then prevent the OpLinks from being destroyed, which a Limbo can do with zero issue solo if need be. This makes for much shorter missions. It takes an average team with the right make-up (let's say for argument's sake, a Gara with Mending Splinters to fix the OpLinks, a Slow Nova for the enemies, an Octavia for the radial damage boost with her 4 and multishot boost with her 3, and throw in another DPS that you like) can finish the ground mission in 35 minutes or so and does need at least three coordinated players.

Conclusion? Space missions don't have better rewards, they're just base easier to do.

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

the #1 most logical fix?
actually create Squad Link. because Squad Link is a sham, it's not real. there is no link.

During last night's DevStream, Steve explained this and why it's done the way it's done.

Directly linking two squads is possible via an intermediary system since regular missions are instanced as peer-to-peer connections and typically do not maintain connection with the Warframe servers for the duration, only updating on the return.

What this means is that by creating Squad Link they would have to maintain a server in the background that monitors and shares data between the two actual mission hosts. And that is literally what is being tested here.

Squad Link does exist and this is how they would do it.

However, for the Operation it was found in testing that single-instance to single-instance link was actually detrimental. Because the moment your link partner left, your mission was no longer sustained as a link to anyone and anything you did after that would not impact, so you either would have to leave on your own because you wouldn't earn anything (since you can't transmit codes to/receive codes from a squad that isn't there), or be automatically booted back to a matchmaking state after a short delay.

Op Link is much more practical for the function needed in this Operation. It provides a single server for multiple squads and can update and share the data between the squads in a more fluid manner. If one team decides they want to finish early and head back to the relay for some shopping or a toilet break, then other teams are still able to support each other.

Not only is it a very overt stress-test on a system that is brand new for DE, linking multiple squads at once to see the limits of their servers and show up all the faults that could exist with both single squads linked and multiple squads linked, there's also the simple fact that for the purpose of getting actual Squad Link DE would have to use this same system of providing a hosted server to mediate between the two and the only difference is that it would be in the background compared to the current Operation having it as a manual process.

Does anyone have anything further I can explain? I don't have all the answers, but I know enough about networking and the current Operation to at least try to answer.

[taiiat]

34 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Conclusion? Space missions don't have better rewards, they're just base easier to do.

not per Mission, but per Minute they absolutely do. even though you can complete the ground half in like, 15ish Minutes, it's still slower Rewards than the space Mission.
having 17 steps to complete vs 5 steps.

34 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

the moment your link partner left, your mission was no longer sustained as a link to anyone and anything you did after that would not impact

that's entirely solved by allowing the two halves to connect to other Squads.

and you don't need 50 Servers for 50 groups of Squads - the game already has Relay Servers that serve as intermediaries for thousands of individual Sessions simultaneously.
is actual Squad Link more complicated than making a Chat Tab that spams with basically random flavor text for all intents and purposes? unquestionably. they could just not not call it Squad Link since it isn't, that helps a lot with not setting expectations.
i'd rather it just be a magical black box though, the new Chat Tab is really annoying and is training me to ignore Chat flashes because it's probably yet another random message that i don't care about. all it actually needs is a tally of currently banked Kill Codes anyways.

Edited March 28, 2020 by taiiat

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's entirely solved by allowing the two halves to connect to other Squads.

Yes? Steve literally said you would have to go through a new round of matchmaking in order to do that.

Guess how that's done in Warframe? By kicking you back to a lobby. An existing instance cannot match with a new instance, that's not how peer-to-peer works.

Do you know how it does work? By having an underlying server that the instances are connected to that mediates data transfer and tracks instances so that they can supply information to each other freely.

Guess what the Flotilla Relays are?! Exactly that.

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Squad Link does exist and this is how they would do it.

The entire Operation is a testing bed for the actual method that Squad Link would literally have to rely on.

What they're testing is how to cover for what happens with a-synchronous missions, attempting to connect with new instances and having those underlying servers that mediate data transfer between peer-to-peer hosted instances, and it literally does not matter if that's between 2 dedicated instances of peer-to-peer, or 50, it's literally how it has to function.

The simple difference between Squad Link and Op Link is how many instances can be supported concurrently, which is a fantastic test for making the servers run these mechanics in the background after the actual proof of concept has shown to work.

Again, because of the limitation of what Squad Link is, and how it would literally function if all you ever did was link two instances together via matchmaking, it would be base detrimental to the stated goals of both this Operation and of getting actual regular missions in the future that have a Squad Link enabled.

Op Link is how they solve the problem of a-synchronous matchmaking.

You are literally saying 'allow the halves to reconnect to others' when this Op Link method is how you do that with a system that runs on peer-to-peer hosted sessions.

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

and you don't need 50 Servers for 50 groups of Squads - the game already has Relay Servers that serve as intermediaries for thousands of individual Sessions simultaneously.

Which is why I have no idea how you are confusing your own self by stating things like this.

A Flotilla Relay is one dedicated server for up to 50 instanced peer-to-peer games, that's literally what it is. That's what is being tested. How did you not get this? So it's not 50 servers for 50 squads, it's 50 servers for 2500 squads.

I am literally trying to wrap my head around how you have not understood this base concept of what Op Link is and why it is needed to enable Squad Link in the first place.

[JackHargreav]

Meh who knows.

It could be because Railjack missions require more from the players. You need a Railjack and 7 intrinsics and equipment for the Railjack.

Ground squads just need whatever weapon and warframe the players have. There isn't any special requirement.

Edited March 28, 2020 by JackHargreav