Why we cant have endgame content

[Darklord_Tou]

Railjack not really what i would call endgame...I think railjack was really difficult(almost impossible) without proper gears to solo but was very easy with full squad... now they made it bit more easier for solo(even though there is still alot of annoyance) which also made even more easier on squads.

EDIT: I think what they shouldve done is scale enemy numbers/stats according to the number of people on squad.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Darklord_Tou

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Except a lot of players clearly do want a challenge.

A lot? Who is this a lot? 1/8 of these players?

The question is can seasoned players find a challenge? Yes, of course, a subjective challenge like stripping the mods out of the weapons and frames. Once seasoned players outgrowth the game the possibility of endgame is thrown out of the window. 

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, and driving them away because you personally don't believe the game should even have some bit of content aimed at that isn't reasonable.

How am I driving them out? Players are free to explore the game. I have everything and the knowledge to make top builds. For me that is not enough if there is no real challenge to do so. DE tried but the structure of the game and the structure of their business doesn't allows them execute something worthy of a challenge. Better yet, the way DE updates and deal with the content makes way too hard find material that challenges skill, gear and experience of this minority of seasoned players. The history is there, we had seven years lapping this problem without a clever solution. 

The market is more profitable with new players than seasoned or experienced players. One reason are the numbers. DE will NOT dedicate full strength of their working bench on that single problem. Is not going to happen. 

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Even DE wants to add challenge, particularly since their past attempts at endgame have shown that farming only goes so far.

The aspiration of having Primed Chamber is gone. The aspiration of having almost all the Arcanes is gone, the aspiration of being the top clan in a leader board is gone. Tell me what the game has?  The aspiration of having special rewards due to long hours lapping a level are gone. Even I felt asleep lapping the same Kuva Fortress or Survivals in high synergy frame squads. There is no purpose. I ran my 5x3, my five hours of Kuvival and few other tasks just once. After that, there is nothing more than just farming, RNG, XP walls and time gates. 

If you say that such game, like solar rail for example, will add new challenges, definite new challenges then we will not even be here talking about Rail Jack or the need of any end game. Those things would be solved five years ago. There is no goal for the seasoned player once he gets his toys in his shelf. There is nothing for us to do once we settle few builds, forma few weapons. We are just left being only 'better quicker farmers'. 

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Creating content around limited rewards means that there is no more reason to play once those rewards are obtained, and we can obtain rewards pretty quickly. Seeing as there is an increasingly large demand for endgame, one the developers are willing to honor, it should be worth looking into how to implement that, even if it should probably not take the form of PvP or tiny content islands.

It's a pipe dream. You know it is. Seasoned players like me are the minority. Not everybody is interested having all the hardware or seeking challenge. That is the reality of it. If there is a considerable demand that produces them cash, then we could probably have this conversation. Right now endgame is ethereal for this game. It never happened in seven years. It's not going to happen now. 

Instead of waiting for it I go towards more challenging available content found in Bloodborne, Titan Fall 2, Dark Souls series, Sekiro or God of War. This is what I recommend. You don't loose anything. I'll be off this game for over six or eight months playing Cyberpunk 77, TLoU2 and Ghost of Tsushima. Once you are a seasoned player, makes no sense to invest a dime in this anymore unless DE makes something substantial over the game play, graphics and a better variety of enemies including challenging experiences. 

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Agreed, which is why I think that before we can start talking about implementing endgame, we need to talk about how the game can present us a challenge, period. The problem right now is that our abilities can completely remove enemy agency, and thereby remove all gameplay from the game, without much the game can do to counter us short of nullifying our abilities. Until that changes, no endgame will truly provide the challenge players crave.

True. 

But War Frame is not a game made for 'endgame'. Sorry. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Felsagger

[Corvid]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

1+3 is always more then 1.

And? 1+1+1+1+1 is more than 4. On DE's end, they don't care how players group up, as long as they're playing.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

War Frame is not hard. People may get the info in youtube work with patience and achieve the intended goal in it through time gates and fair gear checks. DE should not focus on endgame at all. I rather see them work on the conclusion of Railjack details, Duviri's Paradox and few chapters in the New War. I would have more interest on solo quests, quality of life in the game and a robust experience than stress test attempts that failed over time. 

What you fail to realize is that endgame doesnt need to be finite or infinite, it doesnt have to be hard, it just needs to be an activity you can do even though you've reached a certain point. Arbitrations in a sense were endgame when they released since they had new items tied to it and since WF isnt a classic 1-60 level game the things that define as endgame doesnt have to be the same as those in a linear game such as WoW. No matter which game though, the endgame will at some point be grown out of and a new one will take its place, which leaves the old endgame as an activity for new players to get geared in for midgame instead or stays as the entry endgame if it is the only path to gain gear to tackle the higher endgame releases.

Liches are also in a sense endgame, since they provide us with a specific type of weapons in content that isnt suited for newer players. It is just that WF endgame can in practic start at any point where the player feels they are in a good enough spot to handle it. We dont have the level barriers of of PoE, D3 or Black Desert, we have a completely different type of progression where levels nearly mean squat.

So all the things you mention up top, like RJ, Duviri and New War chapters, can be endgame, depending on if it brings us things to let us progress or mix up our builds further. There is no narrow and specific definition for endgame in WF because the game is far too different and open ended, with a sandbox approach to our goals. It does however not mean that we cannot have typical endgame, or that typical endgame is the only soution. We currently have alot that can be considered endgame since it is really up to the player what their goals are. We just dont have endgame as in a real concrete endgame mode.

[HexOmega111x]

il y a une heure, Tinklzs a dit :

Not everyone wants challenge, some want to faceroll everything and that's fine. I personally want something more while not taking away what others like

I don't say that the current content  difficulty must be changed. Warframe must remain what it is, same for futur updates. What I say is that there should be a way to make the game more difficult if you want to. Something like an elite mode that will increase the starting enemies level, modify the spawn rate, change the enemy type ratio, etc... All along the game and not just for 1 single game mode. 

The problem with end game features is that they might not always be good enough and not please the players until the next one is released. If the next one is good enough if course. 1 content oriented end game-like can still exist, this is not one or the other. 

Another level of difficulty can be enough to change the way you play a content that you already played dozens of times. The biggest issue will remain the rewards. 

[Felsagger]

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What you fail to realize is that endgame doesn't need to be finite or infinite, it doesnt have to be hard, it just needs to be an activity you can do even though you've reached a certain point.

According to that logic; 

Fishing is end game?

Playing ESO is end game? 

Fashion Frame is end game? 

Playing the Banjo is end game? 

Hunting animals for trophies in Fortuna is  end game? 

My version: Stripping my War Frame mods, leaving only my bo and playing with a pink Rhino kicking the enemy could be end game, right? 

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Arbitrations in a sense were endgame when they released since they had new items tied to it and since WF isnt a classic 1-60 level game the things that define as endgame doesn't have to be the same as those in a linear game such as WoW.

True but that's progression. 

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No matter which game though, the endgame will at some point be grown out of and a new one will take its place

Hence there is no endgame according to what you are saying. Endgame is something fixed for example Solar Rails and the intention to dominate all the nodes. It has aspiration, a challenge, skill, gear checking and team work. 

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which leaves the old endgame as an activity for new players to get geared in for midgame instead or stays as the entry endgame if it is the only path to gain gear to tackle the higher endgame releases.

In other words, the game has 'no endgame'. That is progression. Those are gear check points for further progression. 

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Liches are also in a sense endgame, since they provide us with a specific type of weapons in content that isnt suited for newer players. It is just that WF endgame can in practic start at any point where the player feels they are in a good enough spot to handle it. We dont have the level barriers of of PoE, D3 or Black Desert, we have a completely different type of progression where levels nearly mean squat.

No, Liches are exclusive content for seasoned players and activity for squads if the intention is to lift or boost newer players. 

Progression and endgame are not the same thing. 

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So all the things you mention up top, like RJ, Duviri and New War chapters, can be endgame, depending on if it brings us things to let us progress or mix up our builds further.

I would LOVE to have that type of 'endgame'. Yes of course. But that's new content not 'endgame'. 

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There is no narrow and specific definition for endgame in WF because the game is far too different and open ended, with a sandbox approach to our goals. It does however not mean that we cannot have typical endgame, or that typical endgame is the only soution. We currently have alot that can be considered endgame since it is really up to the player what their goals are. We just dont have endgame as in a real concrete endgame mode.

Then you alone threw the term 'endgame' into a burden of RELATIVITY and Subjectivity. 

 

Now YOU tell me how do I grab this hot pot if the whole term is defined like you said. If End game could be anything then DE should do nothing about it because the problem was already solved. If I'm wrong then tell me what such concept be in WF. It most be something concrete that stays there all the time.  

Edited May 7, 2020 by Felsagger

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

Warframe needs some places where you can get your a** kicked if you are not well prepared or if you do not master a proper build. 

But we run with the issue of one top formula dropping the excitement of it. 

Maybe having a top gear you can close even with the possibility of having your ass beat. The enemy will have equal chances of being defeated while you have the only chance of being revived. Teamwork WILL be your only advantage against a harmful foe. 

2 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

But, imagine, DE will release a challenging game mode based on the current power state of some powerful builds. As there is not progression based on level, the next new endgame can only be as difficult as the previous one. Or only fit to few of the latest weapons. And once again, how can this be healthy for Warframe? 

I keep thinking that what warframe needs is the ability to provide difficulty in every existing game mode before trying to create a content that will please the players only as long as they will be attracted by the rewards. 

Why are we asking for 1 single game mode that will bring some provisional challenge when challenge should be a thing no matter what part of the game you play. 

Warframe certainly don't need a game mode that will be the main activity that every player will want to reach as fast as possible and never look back at everything else in the game.

 

Btw, I haven't seen anyone talking about the rift like feature we will have with the next update. Any thought on this?

True....

But don't ruin my plans...:3 

I need to convince them in just one event first. : P

War Frame players need some heavy butt spanking as a reality check so they drop that whiny attitude of having easy cakes against the enemy. Enemies should be feared otherwise they should not be called a threatening enemy in the first place. A better name would be musou mobs if they are not threatening ^^

[STUVash]

il y a 3 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

War Frame players need some heavy butt spanking as a reality check so they drop that whiny attitude of having easy cakes against the enemy. Enemies should be feared otherwise they should not be called a threatening enemy in the first place. A better name would be musou mobs if they are not threatening ^^

The enemies themselves are quite strong though. It's just that the Tennos have too much going for them.

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, STUVash said:

The enemies themselves are quite strong though. It's just that the Tennos have too much going for them.

Being thick turtle shells with armor and shields doesn't makes them interesting. 

 

Sorry for my rudeness, not to you Vash, you are fine,...

But the enemies in War Frame SUCKS duodenum hard and are utter trash. 

My bad, had to take that spine out of my heart

[Tinklzs]

1 hour ago, HexOmega111x said:

What I say is that there should be a way to make the game more difficult if you want to. Something like an elite mode that will increase the starting enemies level, modify the spawn rate, change the enemy type ratio, etc... All along the game and not just for 1 single game mode. 

That's fine I have no issues with that. Hopefully DE's difficulty slider they mentioned recently will fit the bill .

 

[STUVash]

il y a 42 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Being thick turtle shells with armor and shields doesn't makes them interesting. 

 

Sorry for my rudeness, not to you Vash, you are fine,...

But the enemies in War Frame SUCKS duodenum hard and are utter trash. 

My bad, had to take that spine out of my heart

I mean the enemies themselves right ? Not taking into account anything you as a tenno can bring on the table. They're fine.
They can spawn anywhere on the map, roam around, check the places if they saw a corpse or if you showed yourself for an instant. If you showed yourself too much they start chasing you. They go by feet, by ships, by coildrives, they call reinforcements.
Some are range, some are snipers, some are melee, some summon other enemies, some throw grenades, some throw molotov, some have nullifier fields, some have auras for their allies, some become eximus and exhibit new resistances and abilities, some pilot ships, some interact with the environment hiding, some use objects like turrets to shoot you, and there's even more I could list.

Some other games don't even have half of the diversity we got in our enemies. Most games recycle lot more than that.

Now if you're talking how do each of these really interesting enemies fare against a tenno using his arsenal to its full potential. Yeah. Everything suck in comparison. Tennos are like Gods, especially when you get the operator form.

Every mistake you could make, you can cancel it just by hopping in operator mode. And it just keeps getting stronger the more you gear up. It makes sense in an RPG, the problem with Warframe is that we have too much stuff for us.

We have Shields, and now shield gate.
We have armor.
We have Health.
we have all the weapons we want, all the mods to make each of these the strongest they can be.
We have Archguns(Atmo).
We have Energy fueled abilities.
We have Gear items, to refill all resources and nullify all threats that could arise from the lack of one of the previous stat.
We have Specters, we can summon ALOT of them.
We have the Operator form which let you fixes all the screw ups you could make.
We have the focus trees, which lessen even more the burden on the warframe.
We have Arcanes, 2 on the warframe, one on the kitgun, one on a zaw, 3 on the operator. For a total of 7 you can bring out in any mission. 7.
We have pets, that can refill shield, health, and even revive us. They can also equip mods to fight with you and help you.
We have sets mods. That may suit the next mission even more than the best build you had already.
We have Landing Craft Air support.
We have Archwings.
We have Railjack with the many avionics that will give even more powers to the Tenno during missions.
We have a Squad made up of 4 Tennos that could bring the previous Hellish arsenal that no other being in the universe can carry around.

One grinner has Armor. Health. A lesser intelligence compare to the player's, a gun, and a melee weapon if you disarm him. That's it. Get on its level and you'll find enemies are rather ok.
What would be curious from DE, that I'm not expecting anymore, is for the enemies to get the same arsenal.

Edited May 7, 2020 by STUVash

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2020-05-06 at 1:32 AM, STUVash said:

You all thinking in that thread box is fun and all, but you've long gone far away from the original post.
OP issue was: difficulty made easier as we get more updates and mechanics.

This issue can already be solved in various ways just from the player perspective.
Now back to the funny part of this mess.

@Felsagger What's your conclusion to have fun with a live service game once you experienced all the main content ?
Emphasis on having fun.

I still believe end game content won't come from making us fight this uber stat, got-so-much-everything-no-weapon-can-touch-me-dmg-gate-me-daddy enemy, it'll come from players finding ways to use their massive end gamer wealth of resources to generate new missions or gameplay for others to enjoy. Creativity at that level is what has kept games like minecraft alive, even GTA 5 has stayed relevant due to Five M well past its natural expiry date.

I've been trying to rally up a few ideas that could make this low investment such as 

Hard to know where the community  are at with this, Railjack has been quite a fun game mode now the pace has improved.it's still got a fair bit to do out there for me so I'm enjoying it. Can't help but wonder what will happen once i've seen every variation of enemy ship and got all the railjack upgrades.. will it still be exciting? Maybe DE can keep up the generation of new content for it faster than we can play through it so they don't feel the need for some additional mechanics in game to allow players to get creative at that level.

 

[STUVash]

il y a 19 minutes, Jax_Cavalera a dit :

I still believe end game content won't come from making us fight this uber stat, got-so-much-everything-no-weapon-can-touch-me-dmg-gate-me-daddy enemy, it'll come from players finding ways to use their massive end gamer wealth of resources to generate new missions or gameplay for others to enjoy.

I already did that on my own, coming up with other ways to go about the mission, making it harder on me, just for fun.
Love your idea too. While if DE would make a crazy mission, most players would complain and make a fuss. But if it's from a crazy player, then it's okay. Since it's optional.

[Loza03]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

This is how ridicule and boring current "endgame" looks like now. There is no dynamics, movement or even interest other than just camping in a corner seeing big red numbers. That is not even good game design in any standards. DE sidelined enemy design, A.I. and enemy variation replacing it with the crutch of higher damage, shields, armor and health. It is sloppy design to say the least. 

Let's be real here - there wasn't before. There hasn't been.  Endurance has always been this way - entrenching and having as little interaction with the enemies as possible, because eventually you will get to the point where you're one-shot, at which point poking your nose out will kill you instantly. That is the nature of an endlessly-scaling RPG experience. Eventually, it comes down to the simple fact - 'My numbers are bigger than yours'. Be those numbers on stats of the enemies or the Number of the enemies.

Endurance is exactly that - enduring. And last time I checked most of history's sieges didn't involve the people inside going outside every day, it involved them staying in their castles, only doing things when they absolutely had to. Endurance is about digging in. No matter what, no matter how good your combat loop is, these kinds of game modes are just about stacking more and more numbers against the player until the player can't do anything about it.

 

Even in the event that Warframe suddenly got enemies with the AI you see in F.E.A.R, it would be the same way.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, STUVash said:

I mean the enemies themselves right ? Not taking into account anything you as a tenno can bring on the table. They're fine.

Yep. The enemies. Almost all forms of enemies. 

Yes the War Frame needs more polygons and higher detailed models and texture resolution. That will get better in the PS5 and Xbox series X. Tenno needs more body types and better levels of customization. But with what we have, we can row one seven more months. 

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They can spawn anywhere on the map, roam around, check the places if they saw a corpse or if you showed yourself for an instant. If you showed yourself too much they start chasing you. They go by feet, by ships, by coildrives, they call reinforcements.

Yes, please. 

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Some are range, some are snipers, some are melee, some summon other enemies, some throw grenades, some throw molotov, some have nullifier fields, some have auras for their allies, some become eximus and exhibit new resistances and abilities, some pilot ships, some interact with the environment hiding, some use objects like turrets to shoot you, and there's even more I could list.

Yes, please. 

With enemies like that I can smell 'endgame' somehow for War Frame. 

Enemies needs a personality, spawn points that are believable instead of magical teleportation in a closed room. They need all type of insertion points as you mentioned in your post. 

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Some other games don't even have half of the diversity we got in our enemies. Most games recycle lot more than that.

Just improve the polygons, apparel and equipment on the enemies that WE ALREADY HAVE IN THE GAME. Just a hefty upgrade. DE already settled their list of enemies. Improve their aesthetics, AI, Weapons, aggressiveness, initiative, team squad'ed attacks and so on. 

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Now if you're talking how do each of these really interesting enemies fare against a tenno using his arsenal to its full potential. Yeah. Everything suck in comparison. Tennos are like Gods, especially when you get the operator form.

Tennos are telekinetic, genetically designed, nano intervened, cybernetic beings. (Think like Akira with less capabilities) Tennos are a weapon. War Frame can control elements with strict technology. Transferring to a War Frame is a capability that the race of Tenno has. No one else. 

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Every mistake you could make, you can cancel it just by hopping in operator mode. And it just keeps getting stronger the more you gear up. It makes sense in an RPG, the problem with Warframe is that we have too much stuff for us.

True. But that fail safe can fail too. The powers are fine. The enemies should develop strategies to cut off tenno powers like blocking devices that prevents the tenno switching. Or equipment that makes tenno powers useless. 

The enemy SHOULD LEARN FROM tenno and Orokin technology. Is like playing with advanced guns, armor and Titans Mechs when your enemies are Indians with knives, bows, arrows and spears. 

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We have Shields, and now shield gate.
We have armor.
We have Health.
we have all the weapons we want, all the mods to make each of these the strongest they can be.
We have Archguns(Atmo).
We have Energy fueled abilities.
We have Gear items, to refill all resources and nullify all threats that could arise from the lack of one of the previous stat.
We have Specters, we can summon ALOT of them.
We have the Operator form which let you fixes all the screw ups you could make.
We have the focus trees, which lessen even more the burden on the warframe.
We have Arcanes, 2 on the warframe, one on the kitgun, one on a zaw, 3 on the operator. For a total of 7 you can bring out in any mission. 7.
We have pets, that can refill shield, health, and even revive us. They can also equip mods to fight with you and help you.
We have sets mods. That may suit the next mission even more than the best build you had already.
We have Landing Craft Air support.
We have Archwings.
We have Railjack with the many avionics that will give even more powers to the Tenno during missions.
We have a Squad made up of 4 Tennos that could bring the previous Hellish arsenal that no other being in the universe can carry around.

True, and what the enemy have against all that? Do they have mechs, do they have power armored heavy troops, do they have special teams that are more tactical, do they have different load outs of the enemies. Do they have threatening troops that are called when they are out numbered. Hordes works but intelligent hordes are SOMETHING ELSE. 

You can't run the mill like a suicide squad expecting nothing to happen. The game structure doesn't change but the enemy behavior of course. You start to look for them while you dispatch other lesser threats. 

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What would be curious from DE, that I'm not expecting anymore, is for the enemies to get the same arsenal.

Special teams like four Liches with Brammas and tactical military accuracy. Everybody gangsta until they arrive. 

That kind of things should happen more often in the game. Or for example if you are in an open area, large level where the enemy is taking a beating, they call for the Galleon so they teach that insolent frame a lesson. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Felsagger

[STUVash]

@Felsagger

I get what you're going for, but you can't really ignore the direction DE is taking. You have to ask yourself why we are where we are now. Liches used to insta-kill people when they fail the requiem. I thought the punishment was more convincing than just "hey I'm leaving oops I dropped kuva, you can have it, cheers." but now it's not there anymore.
People complained and it left. And this is just one part I paid attention to, DE had alot more steps to go through.

Now think what would people say if 4 liches ganked on them. This is a tough crowd we have. I personally wouldn't mind it if we had 4 liches coming in, instead of one, it would kinda make sense since all 4 Tennos are being wanted by their respective liches.
Just make a poll on a different Thread, call it "Vote Poll: Would you love having one lich ganking you for each players in the Squad. Yes or No ?"

See what people think. While what DE makes is quite important, the reception is also important too. Regarding liches, it's tough to make changes now that the first reception wasn't good enough, it became an apparent Risk. But if you can convince DE that the whole community wants their ass kicked through a poll then I don't see why they wouldn't consider it.

Edited May 7, 2020 by STUVash

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, STUVash said:

"Vote Poll: Would you love having one lich ganking you for each players in the Squad. Yes or No ?"

To answer this right here solely on a personal note, hell no.

Why? Because there are already lag issues with those Lich's grab attacks even when in a mission solo, having 4 of them would dramatically exacerbate that issue, nevermind that some of the Lichs might be packing explosives or Radiation damage which would just make the entire fight look like a circus.

The only invader that needs backup is the (Shadow)Stalker, who I am surprised doesn't have his Acolytes showing up as backup, imagine the Stalker with up to 3 Acolytes, it would be symmetrical to the team and make the Stalker seem a bit more like a threat.

[Felsagger]

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Let's be real here - there wasn't before. There hasn't been.  Endurance has always been this way

Yes, an exercise of pure stupidity, no skill and camping. 

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

- entrenching and having as little interaction with the enemies as possible, because eventually you will get to the point where you're one-shot, at which point poking your nose out will kill you instantly.

This is the wort, if not THE WORST designing any type of endurance. 

So the only reward is just the plain orgasm for large red numbers on heavy turtle shell sponges who one shots? For that I simply take an ordinary PC and watch two billion digits of PI

War Frame abilities should NOT be the only thing that scales up. Weapons should be useful too. What needs to scale up is the composition of squads, numbers if possible, enemy types, enemy weapons, enemy reinforcements, enemy tactics, larger enemies and so on. Yes you can dispatch them with your weapons with few shots but they can do the same. They will have weapon abilities that can turn the tide if they score a hit. This is how you make endurance immersible other than a mod build gear check and a synergy 'algorithmic' circuit of frames to keep preservation. 

It shows plain developer laziness weaseling out the hard work of customizing enemies. This is the central critique of why we don't have a 'good old lasting end game experience'. Exactly this. 

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That is the nature of an endlessly-scaling RPG experience. Eventually, it comes down to the simple fact - 'My numbers are bigger than yours'. Be those numbers on stats of the enemies or the Number of the enemies.

But is just the most pathetic that such thing becomes 'bragging right' material. This proves again that certain War Frame players are used to low standards when they brag about that. 

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

Endurance is exactly that - enduring. And last time I checked most of history's sieges didn't involve the people inside going outside every day, it involved them staying in their castles, only doing things when they absolutely had to. Endurance is about digging in. No matter what, no matter how good your combat loop is, these kinds of game modes are just about stacking more and more numbers against the player until the player can't do anything about it.

This is the worst design for a video game anyone can come up with. Sorry but I have to say it. 

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Even in the event that Warframe suddenly got enemies with the AI you see in F.E.A.R, it would be the same way.

That's game design. It's like hiding in a cave with energy pads and crowd control powers. There is no quick reflexes, no movement, no dynamics in the stage just energy farming and synergy circuit of pressing the same buttons. Sorry but this can't even be considered game play when such action look is repeated over 12 hours. 

Sorry but NO. 

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

That's game design. It's like hiding in a cave with energy pads and crowd control powers. There is no quick reflexes, no movement, no dynamics in the stage just energy farming and synergy circuit of pressing the same buttons. Sorry but this can't even be considered game play when such action look is repeated over 12 hours. 

Sorry but NO. 

So, good, we agree that Endurance isn't a good standard as endgame.

Now - this begs the question. How is improving enemy AI and design going to fix the game when all these strategies are already in the game?

 

My main issue with improving the AI as the first step for Warframe is that... it's not the first step. We shouldn't single-mindedly focus on improving enemies in that respect, because there are other priorities to be addressed first. The game's damage system, energy systems, and the numerous OP abilities. All these limit enemy design by virtue of making improvements to them useless - and thus those should be addressed first.

[Felsagger]

24 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So, good, we agree that Endurance isn't a good standard as endgame.

Now - this begs the question. How is improving enemy AI and design going to fix the game when all these strategies are already in the game?

Some enemies will be resistant to War Frame powers. Only way to take them out is with your primaries, secondaries, a tertiary or your melee. (War frames should have three weapons instead of two guns.) Larger enemies should be disabled shooting certain parts. That forces them to attack with other weapons. Abilities powers are useless against them, only on those enemy units. 

24 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

My main issue with improving the AI as the first step for Warframe is that... it's not the first step. We shouldn't single-mindedly focus on improving enemies in that respect, because there are other priorities to be addressed first. The game's damage system, energy systems, and the numerous OP abilities. All these limit enemy design by virtue of making improvements to them useless - and thus those should be addressed first.

That should be the last thing to do. 

DE had the design system upside down. This is why they downgrade War Frames and weapons. They do it in order to accommodate the enemy content evading trivialization. It should be the complete opposite. 

Design first the enemy and then decide what weapons, powers and combos damage them. New toys and new war frames are better justified this way. There is a sense of progression and evolution in the game. Each release of new enemies the player can take down those enemies with old weapons but is way harder. While new toys are the correct tools to take down these new foes. Warframes or weapons doesn't suffer downgrades. Old weapons deals with old enemies. New weapons and frames deals with new foes. This justifies the lore better giving a sense of progression AND endgame.

In my opinion. This is how I perceive the problem. 

[Aldain]

38 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

My main issue with improving the AI as the first step for Warframe is that... it's not the first step. We shouldn't single-mindedly focus on improving enemies in that respect, because there are other priorities to be addressed first. The game's damage system, energy systems, and the numerous OP abilities. All these limit enemy design by virtue of making improvements to them useless - and thus those should be addressed first.

Pretty much agree, though enemy variety is something I think we need a bit more of...currently even discounting the fact that everything dies in seconds a Heavy Gunner isn't severely different from a Lancer in terms of design, whereas a Nox has different behaviors from a traditional ground unit.

A better varied selection of enemies would be a good step forward, maybe not a first step, but a step that might come after either the Ability one or the damage system (the ability one in particular due to how much can be turned off completely).

[STUVash]

Il y a 1 heure, Aldain a dit :

To answer this right here solely on a personal note, hell no.

Why? Because there are already lag issues with those Lich's grab attacks even when in a mission solo, having 4 of them would dramatically exacerbate that issue, nevermind that some of the Lichs might be packing explosives or Radiation damage which would just make the entire fight look like a circus.

The only invader that needs backup is the (Shadow)Stalker, who I am surprised doesn't have his Acolytes showing up as backup, imagine the Stalker with up to 3 Acolytes, it would be symmetrical to the team and make the Stalker seem a bit more like a threat.

Like I said, I'm not even expecting it to happen. I'm just telling Felsagger that if he wants changes to happen he'd need to convince everyone and DE included that this is what most of the community wants. What you and I want don't really weight in comparison my dear Aldain.

Edited May 8, 2020 by STUVash

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, STUVash said:

What you and I want don't really weight in comparison my dear Aldain.

Oh I know, I just figured I'd answer the mostly rhetorical question for the sake of posterity.

I do that a lot solely out of boredom.

[Felsagger]

17 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Pretty much agree, though enemy variety is something I think we need a bit more of...currently even discounting the fact that everything dies in seconds a Heavy Gunner isn't severely different from a Lancer in terms of design, whereas a Nox has different behaviors from a traditional ground unit.

A better varied selection of enemies would be a good step forward, maybe not a first step, but a step that might come after either the Ability one or the damage system (the ability one in particular due to how much can be turned off completely).

Makes sense but the enemy needs some love. We got plenty for seven years. 

If we want to make War Frame stay relevant in the next generation, something must captivate these new players other than a power fantasy game that only performs gear checks, time gates and grind walls. The game should give me something to be there other than checkpoint rewards.  

Impressive enemies invites curiosity and tries to convey more flexibility. 

Warframes uses the level in a vertical manner because they do wall hugs, wall runs and many other parkour abilities. Our advantage over any enemy is how we use the context of the level. That is what makes us superior against them. Our speed and dexterity. 

Enemies should counter that with intelligence, equipment, load outs, jet packs, vehicles and artillery. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Felsagger

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Because the requirements it takes to succeed in endgame are too much for the new wave of players that dominate the community. It may surprise many people, but the game is more complex than most others. For many vets, they've learned the complexity, but most people are incapable of this. It's a sad truth that people just are not capable of stuff that comes easy for others.

The ratio of this is small though, meaning that the rest of the people who have no interest in high level activities simply don't want to struggle, a lack of motivation to learn, and accept that they are not good yet, but have things to learn. Combine with a general lack of experience to gain the mechanical skill of aiming, parkour, etc. You are left with a mass of players, who may have the potential to reach endgame with experience in it, but have no reason to and no desire.

Back in the early days, you were almost forced to experience the higher levels due to void keys. Nowadays, nobody has the experience nor the necessity to gain experience. DE understands that even if you add high level content, there will be no use. A small community will play it. Endurance running is dead. Those that continue to go deep into the hours of the game are playing a hollow shell of a once great achievement.

Warframe is not meant for this anymore and it's this very reason that many are leaving. If you wanna play a game that rewards you for your intelligence, gaming skills, and dedication,pick up another game or develop your own. That part of warframe is gone. It's like a gym with only treadmills.