Armor is outdated, DR is the way of the future

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

Actually it is.

Perhaps for you. I wouldn't dare tell you what you can and can't enjoy.

I just have standards is all.

1 minute ago, Ikyr0 said:

It's accepting the game's identity

Sure, you ignore the plethora of other games that share the same "identity" of a horde shooter and somehow manage to balance both player and enemy damage. No sweat off my back.

I wish it was sweat off my back though, it's hella sticky right now.

[Tesseract7777]

What if DeMonkey really is a reincarnation of the actual Monkey King of legend? The way he verbally spars with people, I could believe it. 

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

What if DeMonkey really is a reincarnation of the actual Monkey King of legend? The way he verbally spars with people, I could believe it. 

DeMonkey goes by the following method in regards to the forum.  

I can respect that.  😄 

[Andele3025]

12 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

It feels like Diablo, not Dark Souls. Do you have classes that are weak in endless dungeons, or classes without nuking capabilities in Diablo? It would be ridiculous.

Just technically, its closer to Dark Souls because in DS your multipliers and efficiency are around a 80x damage multiplier total. In Diablo 2 n 3 thats barely a tier of play. Difference is DS is closer to fighting sortie grineer without any forms of armor removal (tho Diablo 2 might be the best comparison simply due to horde clear nature and non-kill frame calc limitations putting diablo 2 dps of 80k~ very close to the 60-140k range warframe has without buffer frames and if we ignore few massive powercreep outliers like gram prime).
Also yes, yes you do by build choice much like how complete loadout determines your damage and survival in warframe.

 

Not that im arguing against the point that DE should ether number squish again or give more build options to most frames as to not rely on shieldgate+augur/brief combo, but even that is a MASSIVE step above warframe was at.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

3 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

Depends...wanna cap off the timers at 1 hour then?

Even better. I wanna cap the timer at 20 minutes.

Endless missions were a mistake that ruined any semblance of balancing around anything that doesn’t have infinite scaling.

[Steel_Rook]

9 hours ago, mac10smg--Toa_of_Green said:

Even better. I wanna cap the timer at 20 minutes.

Endless missions were a mistake that ruined any semblance of balancing around anything that doesn’t have infinite scaling.

This. A plurality of Warframe's balance issues can be tracked directly to DE's decision to create "endless" content where players are chased out of the mission by increased enemy difficulty. This creates a feedback loop of needing to make enemies more difficult to combat min/maxers' increasingly more powerful builds, then needing to increase the power of median builds so other players can engage in more difficult content, then needing to increase enemy difficulty to match min/maxers' new power, repeat. There's no reason to fight level 100 enemies, much less level 200, 300, 500, 1000, etc. All we end up doing is boosting player and enemy stats, ensuring roughly the same experience except now using numbers that the game's systems can't handle, and the collective experience is worse off for it.

Feeling obligated to bring 90% damage resistance on top of 80% damage resistance on top of 90% damage resistance is evidence of bad design. When players are taking less than 2% of all incoming damage and still dying, balance becomes impossible because even tiny changes to enemy DPS cascade into massive, major differences at those multiplier levels. The game turns into Clicker Heroes, where you do 1.938e54 damage per hit, but still have to mad-dump into enemies who have 2.000e55 health.

Damage resistance is exactly the wrong way to go about creating proper scaling content because damage resistance does not scale linearly, nor does it scale forever. The closer you get to 100%, the more each 1% does, to the point where EHP spikes uncontrollably. Armour is a smart solution to this problem. EHP is a rational function of resistance, resistance is a rational function of armour, thus EHP is a linear function of armour. For every point of armour, you get 1/300th of your HP's worth of additional EHP, regardless of how much armour you already had. This is a clever, well-desiged and scalable system. So of course DE had to bypass it with exponential growth in enemy armour and flat damage resistance bonuses to players. When you do stupid stuff, systems designed to keep you from doing stupid stuff always seem to get in the way.

[(XBOX)DarkForceLegend]

Because endurance running and Steel Path exist, does not mean that Armor is worthless or that it is outdated. We have a few different people in this discussion that have many different perspectives.That's fine, it allows us to see things from different points of view, but let's be realistic. Most all of the content, weapons and Warframes, are balanced against the normal star chart. With the tools we have been given, mods and companions, you should have no problem taking any frame and completing the star chart. Some missions may require you to play on a team to complete, but that's because it's an MMO.

I've done endurance runs, admittedly not past a few hours, but I know what it's like to take a Warframe and create a build and fail. I know what it's like to rely on damage reduction abilities and then not have them for whatever reason. When that happens I go to the drawing board. I research anything and everything that could potentially help me go a little further.

Solutions are there. Plenty of people have done endless missions to the point that DE has flagged the person for potentially cheating. People are also getting through Steel Path with very little problem. Granted, not every single frame will have the ability to go countless hours in a survival, but I don't know that they should. Where do you draw the line.

Most every frame has some sort of way to mitigate damage. Yes, CC is a way to mitigate damage; it works wonders on Protea. I can agree that not all ways to mitigate damage are equal. Not all are great to use, agreed. Most of these things are abilities though and have the potential of being unreliable. Hit a nullifier and bam no DR. Thus Armor, the base line defense against damage. I personally feel that it is underrated, and I can understand why. Slap Steel Fiber on a squishy frame and it does next to nothing. Put an umbral build on a squishy frame and it still does next to nothing. Put that same or similar build on a frame with alot of base armor and all of a sudden they are just as tanky as frames that have good DR abilities if not better in some cases.

At the end of the day, Armor has its uses and DR abilities have their uses. Perhaps this whole ability swapping can help solve this. I know that I'm looking forward to snagging a few abilities that would hopefully help with that.

Enjoy!

[Hellmaker2004]

On 2020-08-05 at 9:50 PM, (XB1)LZonut said:

Damage resistance rewards increases in health and shields but not armor.

I mean, you are half right.

True, Armor does not rewards increase in shield.
But it does reward increase in health.

Likewise, you are not entirely true about Damage resistance rewarding shield (Always)
Nova as a example, her Damage reduction only work on her Health.

[Dracus_Dakkrius]

On 2020-08-06 at 7:12 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

That's true, but i do support simplifying the way it's portrayed. 

Using the data from someone's post above, if 125 armor is 30% DR then just say 30% DR because it is meaningful. There's diminishing returns and that means the DR becomes even more valuable since that value will be directly shown in your stats.

I think the way armor is currently portrayed is fine. 300 armor is equivalent to +100% eHP, which is closer to the final number most players are concerned about. Having a tooltip that explains this would go a long way to helping out new players. However, having 100 armor be equivalent to +100% eHP would be more intuitive.

On 2020-08-06 at 7:12 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

This would eliminate "armor" on frames since it's all neutral now anyway. Enemies can keep armor simply for the sake of damage type resistances and bonuses if necessary. Realistically, there's like 10 completely useless damage types everyone ignores anyway so this would be a good time to rework and simplify damage types back down to a handful of distinctly different and useful ones instead of filling the game with fluff options while pretending there's more versatility than there is. 

I completely agree with this.

On 2020-08-06 at 5:27 PM, DeMonkey said:

Counter proposal, remove DR from abilities entirely and balance the game around a base level of survivability instead. 90%-95% is ridiculous and never should have existed in the first place.

This too. We need to standardize multipliers on eHP. We might even need to reduce things to linearly scaling eHP.

[fr4gb4ll]

well, i'll take both armor and damage reduction at the same time...

and if even cared enough to make some simple math, you'd know why both has its place and also why for some frames both is usefull - and i won't even start on certain framebuilds that need armor for their abilities...

so, what was your point again?

[kwlingo]

On 2020-08-05 at 2:50 PM, (XB1)LZonut said:

Armor is outdated. Every new frame has damage resistance, a much better way to scale survivability than armor.

Damage resistance rewards increases in health and shields but not armor. Armor has no functionality with frames that uses damage reduction so why is it on those frames? Unless the ability specifically uses armor, it doesn't matter, and there are barely any frames that uses armor as a main function in their abilities anyways. I think armor should be converted to either damage reduction or some other thing that'll help you survive.

I think you are talking about Adaptation not Damage Reduction.

[Hokibukisa]

On 2020-08-05 at 3:50 PM, (XB1)LZonut said:

Armor is outdated. Every new frame has damage resistance, a much better way to scale survivability than armor.

Damage resistance rewards increases in health and shields but not armor. Armor has no functionality with frames that uses damage reduction so why is it on those frames? Unless the ability specifically uses armor, it doesn't matter, and there are barely any frames that uses armor as a main function in their abilities anyways. I think armor should be converted to either damage reduction or some other thing that'll help you survive.

I support rethinking effective health values entirely, especially since this MMO does not dole out tankiness with ability effectiveness.

And of course, late-wave nullifier bubbles dominating the meta. Survive via CC? Nullifier army laughs at you. You die.

[selig_fay]

17 hours ago, kwlingo said:

I think you are talking about Adaptation not Damage Reduction.

It's the same thing. Lol. Adaptation gives DR against a specific type of damage.

I don't understand this topic at all. The armor is DR, only with its own mechanics. To say that this is not the case is like saying that Immolation is not DR, because it has its own mechanics.

If you say that the armor has complex math, it only says that you have never played any Korean MMO. The armor has easy math. After all, I can remember all the DR numbers that interest me, like 700 = 70%, 1200 = 80%, 2700 = 90%. It's easy.

And health has armor, shields have regeneration. Now, when the delay in shield regeneration is less than 1 second, everything looks logical. 

Sorry, I combined in this response an appeal to all people in this topic.

[Acos]

Missing a big part of the equation here, Tenno; Look up Rage and Hunter Adrenaline and you might start to see what is making EHP builds so gosh dang viable. If I had a mod that turned off shields entirely I would take it. 

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, Acos said:

Missing a big part of the equation here, Tenno; Look up Rage and Hunter Adrenaline and you might start to see what is making EHP builds so gosh dang viable. If I had a mod that turned off shields entirely I would take it. 

Maybe buff this thing

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Surplus_Diverters

so that when the shields are fully restored using standard regeneration, they restore energy at the rate of 50% of the shield regeneration. And by standard regeneration, I mean standard regeneration, not regeneration with abilities or other method. This would encourage strong shield tankings without shield gate.

On the other hand, I think there should be a mod that converts shields to HP. But I wouldn't mind converting 50% HP to shields.

 

[kwlingo]

5 hours ago, Acos said:

Missing a big part of the equation here, Tenno; Look up Rage and Hunter Adrenaline and you might start to see what is making EHP builds so gosh dang viable. If I had a mod that turned off shields entirely I would take it. 

Yes especially for this dude...

On Steel Path if you don't have your Redeemer Prime at hand or a frame that depletes his shields 100%... good luck. ahhahaha

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

Yes especially for this dude...

On Steel Path if you don't have your Redeemer Prime at hand or a frame that depletes his shields 100%... good luck. ahhahaha

It has a very large DR simply. I think there is a bug just here.

[T-Shark69]

  

18 hours ago, kwlingo said:

On Steel Path if you don't have your Redeemer Prime at hand or a frame that depletes his shields 100%... good luck. ahhahaha

 

Good luck for what? There is no reason to acknowledge his existence in normal content after the first week of Granum Void, nvm in Steel Path.

Armor is DR that isnt an ability so while it scales with diminishing returns and can be affected by status, it cant be nullified or limited in application. It's also integral in builds like Rhino, Atlas etc. and applies to Pets thanks to the link mod. It has its place.

Also people who think shields are better, please stop doing public arbitration infested matches because its bothersome to revive you every minute.

[Chaemyerelis]

DR feels lime a crutch to an imbalanced game imo. But oh well.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Chaemyerelis said:

DR feels lime a crutch to an imbalanced game imo.

That's because it is.

The numbers in this game are basically 2 calculators hitting the multiply button back and forth, players can deal 40 times the damage needed to kill enemies, the solution can only be giving the enemies enough DR to survive that more than once, which means turning things into 80 times more durable.

The lack of a consistent baseline for anything in Warframe is why we have a perpetual state of going between "content's too easy, DE make more hard content" and "these enemies are boring sandbags that take too long to kill, nerf pls DE".

That same lack of a consistent baseline is also why so much of the game is often rendered obsolete at launch, new weapon isn't just a bigger Bramma? "MR fodder, MAKE BETTER WEAPONS DE!" New open world with new enemies? Nuke frames say "What enemies?" and then complain it is all too easy.

Meanwhile we have people championing things like endurance runs and Steel Path which solve absolutely NONE of the issues instead just swapping to different flavors of cheese.

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, T-Shark69 said:

Good luck for what? There is no reason to acknowledge his existence in normal content after the first week of Granum Void, nvm in Steel Path.

Armor is DR that isnt an ability so while it scales with diminishing returns and can be affected by status, it cant be nullified or limited in application. It's also integral in builds like Rhino, Atlas etc. and applies to Pets thanks to the link mod. It has its place.

Also people who think shields are better, please stop doing public arbitration infested matches because its bothersome to revive you every minute.

You would watch what you quote...

 

[T-Shark69]

10 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

You would watch what you quote...

 

I blame the heat

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

I blame the heat

Same. 

[Chaemyerelis]

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

That's because it is.

The numbers in this game are basically 2 calculators hitting the multiply button back and forth, players can deal 40 times the damage needed to kill enemies, the solution can only be giving the enemies enough DR to survive that more than once, which means turning things into 80 times more durable.

The lack of a consistent baseline for anything in Warframe is why we have a perpetual state of going between "content's too easy, DE make more hard content" and "these enemies are boring sandbags that take too long to kill, nerf pls DE".

That same lack of a consistent baseline is also why so much of the game is often rendered obsolete at launch, new weapon isn't just a bigger Bramma? "MR fodder, MAKE BETTER WEAPONS DE!" New open world with new enemies? Nuke frames say "What enemies?" and then complain it is all too easy.

Meanwhile we have people championing things like endurance runs and Steel Path which solve absolutely NONE of the issues instead just swapping to different flavors of cheese.

I really with they would fix this huge difference in warframe armor/dmg output to enemy armor/dmg output. I think it'd make combat feel less spammy and more engaging. 

But perhaps they're just too in the hole with what they have and it'd require to much change  sadly. 🤷‍♂️🙁

[Tyreaus]

9 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

But perhaps they're just too in the hole with what they have and it'd require to much change  sadly.

Unfortunately, this is likely the case. The major issue I see is that it isn't just a change in mechanics that would be required, but a change in philosophy: how content gets balanced, how new content is made bigger and brighter without setting things askew, so on and so forth.