The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Voltage]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Faith No 45 said:

 

And, if they are changing it now, it means they'll keep changing it. Why couldn't they buff the rest? 

 

Please tell me, how do you buff Decoy to be a compelling choice over a final damage multiplier on all abilities and weapons at the tap of a button? You don't, you can't, and this argument is silly.

The entire problem with this system is the entire system. You can't mix and match Warframe abilities and somehow expect people to not just jump on the dps bandwagon. Kuva Bramma is the best example. You can't buff a Hind to compete with Bramma, and nerfing the Bramma still doesnt make the Hind more compelling. There are mechanical differences in which one is just always superior than the other. This system is a balance nightmare and I called it as soon as DE showed it on Twitch. Good luck thinking you can make this system not a complete balance mess that disrupts years of foundational expectations on Warframe identity and Warframe ability balance.

[Samhel]

Reverting these changes and instead commit to frame reworks would be the good choice here. Why are you doing this to your game? I'm gonna stop playing after thousands of hours I guess now. It's too much. I trusted DE even with RJ, Kuva liches, reworking warframes soon and soon and soon as I kept saying to myself. I was an adoring fan of the game... But now first time in my years of warframe experience I was totally hyped up for some game mechanic that is finally for experienced players and it's a good one. I literally trusted the devs to do the right choices this time, and I literally believed that they will finally make the game compelling to everyone and that this will change the game and they can finally see which frames need reworking and stuff like that... 😞 😞 😞

And now they showed me, even for me that they never gonna commit to these changes to make the game better for some reason 😞 First time in my warframe experience I am genuienly dissapointed, sad, angry and I want to leave the game right here right now. Only thing that will keep me here is the Heart of Deimos quest and open world and the new frame now. But I'll probably run through those things fast enough to use the helminth along the way, but I won't commit myself to play this further...

I was wasting my time, and after all those years I realized it. I had false hopes in devs that made bad decision after bad decision with the same grim smiles on their faces. 

[Voltage]

25 minutes ago, Arkennstar said:

Riven disposition flashbacks intensify

What do you mean flashbacks? These roll around every 90 days .

[FluterTree]

also mr 8 is the max rank you need to get all the primewarframes which makes sence for the system 

[Sahansral]

vor 1 Minute schrieb LixSin:

The nerfs change nothing though. Roar will still be the overwhelming choice. They'd need to nerf it into complete oblivion for it to be otherwise. So all these nerfs have achieved is kill the hype and make people mad at DE, while changing nothing substantial.

hat's the reason why it was an error to put them into the pool in the first place. It's a catch-22 for DE now. There will be rage.

Yes, they have to nerf them into oblivion for the system to offer any real choice...
I'm very curious for the numbers.

[Keyhound]

Just now, Voltage said:

Please tell me, how do you buff Decoy to be a compelling choice over a final damage multiplier on all abilities and weapons at the tap of a button? You don't, you can't, and this argument is silly.

The entire problem with this system is the entire system. You can't mix and match Warframe abilities and somehow expect people to not just jump on the dps bandwagon. Kuva Bramma is the best example. You can't buff a Hind to compete with Bramma, and nerfing the Bramma still doesnt make the Hind more compelling. There are mechanical differences in which one is just always superior than the other.

actually you could do that, and all they would need is revamp the GARBAGE augment. just make the decoy absorb all damage done to loki instead. you then turn it into a utility ability, and a defensive ability at the same time, pointless on an invis frame, but pretty usefull for alot of squishy ones that need a reliable defensive ability.

as for the system, i disagree, for the simple fact that, even with so many bad abilities, you are still able to play around and make FUN combos, like pull into vortex/dome, larva + magnetize, and so on. an ability doesnt need to be best in slot to be useable... it just need to be useable...

[-KenSasaki90-]

So after a nap and some time to think about what u did last night here are some words...

The "Nerfs": I can understand this and here is why:
1. U open with this *nerfs* the way that the Players take a look to the other Abilitys.   
2. A Ability should on the Frame that it own be the strongest and not on a *sec* frame. If i can use Roar on my Wisp, it shouldnt be that strong as it is on my Rhino. That is ok. If i want the stronges Roar Buff, i need to use Rhino. This is the right way in my opinion.

The other part are the MR-Nerf
This is a point i rly cant understand.
At MR8 u have tons of things to do in this game. U need every ressource u can find and nearly every Frame.
Sure, there are frames that u lvl and delete it cause u dont like it and thats ok. But no. 

I play this game since Hydroid Prime comes out. I saw a lot of things in this game. There are much content for *new* Players that cant handle it. 
With MR5 u can do Railjack, u can do Liches and many others. And u know what? Most LowMR Players got MASSIVE Problems in this content. I saw a few ppl with lowMR that can handle it, most of this are Second-Accounts from ppl with MR29.
And now u will give this ppl the Helmeth System even if thes cant handle most of the other Stuff?

I mean, MR8 is low, u can reach this in like 1 Month? What i 1 Month in Warframe? Its nothing!
So many Mods u dont have, so many Weapons/Frames u havent seen. 

And here comes another Problem: Lets say a MR8 get a good Frame like Wisp or Trinity, and doesnt know how to play/handle this frame. First think many players will do: Feed it after level it. Before they can find out how good a frame is: I need space for another Level-Frame = Here food for u.

I see a big Problem here to give this Feature to lowMR Ppl.
Im sure u will get many new Tickets from ppl that feed his Frame and want it back and most of this tickets will be MR15 and less.

I see another *Problem* here. The moment u sayd in the Stream that this System is for Vets: Most Vets are happy to get a system that is Made for they. Now u put it on MR8 and it doesnt feel anymore Special. Rly, vets want sometime something Special that is only for Vets, i dont see a point to Open Everything for Everyone. If there are 2-3 mechanics in this game that are only for Vets, this is ok. If a new Play want this System to Use, he will start to play more to come to this System. This is a reason for they to make an effort to get there.

This is my Opinion but rly, think about it. 

[Maniac523]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15)

I seem to recall hearing you guys talk about this system being specifically for high MR players and it would intentionally be locked behind high MR so new players could not access it. Didn't take long to go back on that bit I see. This system should be locked behind MR20. Now accounts that are barely a week old will be able to access it. This is a mistake.

[(XBOX)Foighne]

And just like that. The magic is gone. 😕

[Keyhound]

Just now, -KenSasaki90- said:

So after a nap and some time to think about what u did last night here are some words...

The "Nerfs": I can understand this and here is why:
1. U open with this *nerfs* the way that the Players take a look to the other Abilitys.   
2. A Ability should on the Frame that it own be the strongest and not on a *sec* frame. If i can use Roar on my Wisp, it shouldnt be that strong as it is on my Rhino. That is ok. If i want the stronges Roar Buff, i need to use Rhino. This is the right way in my opinion.

The other part are the MR-Nerf
This is a point i rly cant understand.
At MR8 u have tons of things to do in this game. U need every ressource u can find and nearly every Frame.
Sure, there are frames that u lvl and delete it cause u dont like it and thats ok. But no. 

I play this game since Hydroid Prime comes out. I saw a lot of things in this game. There are much content for *new* Players that cant handle it. 
With MR5 u can do Railjack, u can do Liches and many others. And u know what? Most LowMR Players got MASSIVE Problems in this content. I saw a few ppl with lowMR that can handle it, most of this are Second-Accounts from ppl with MR29.
And now u will give this ppl the Helmeth System even if thes cant handle most of the other Stuff?

I mean, MR8 is low, u can reach this in like 1 Month? What i 1 Month in Warframe? Its nothing!
So many Mods u dont have, so many Weapons/Frames u havent seen. 

And here comes another Problem: Lets say a MR8 get a good Frame like Wisp or Trinity, and doesnt know how to play/handle this frame. First think many players will do: Feed it after level it. Before they can find out how good a frame is: I need space for another Level-Frame = Here food for u.

I see a big Problem here to give this Feature to lowMR Ppl.
Im sure u will get many new Tickets from ppl that feed his Frame and want it back and most of this tickets will be MR15 and less.

I see another *Problem* here. The moment u sayd in the Stream that this System is for Vets: Most Vets are happy to get a system that is Made for they. Now u put it on MR8 and it doesnt feel anymore Special. Rly, vets want sometime something Special that is only for Vets, i dont see a point to Open Everything for Everyone. If there are 2-3 mechanics in this game that are only for Vets, this is ok. If a new Play want this System to Use, he will start to play more to come to this System. This is a reason for they to make an effort to get there.

This is my Opinion but rly, think about it. 

i think i can speak for most pleople complaing about the nerf when i say, the problem isnt the nerf itself, its THE REASON FOR THE NERF. people will gravitate towards warcry and roar, not just because they are amazing abilities... but because the choice is between roar warcry and tempest barrage, decoy, fireblast, and so on...

for the longest time, people have asked DE to make abilities more fun to play, make frames more useable, more survivable, better synergy... this is their answer, and instead of making those bad abilities better, they deicided they would make better abilities worse to compensate.

this isnt raising the bar, its the complete opposite, they are lowering the quality of what we can pick... and it wont even work, because of how bad the other choices are to begin with...

[Mavelock]

As a player who is hoping to return soon, revert the changes—back to MR 15, particularly. I don’t think you realize how significantly this impacts the morale of the community, and if you go through with this, it’s the final nail on the coffin for the (huge) player base with the mere hope for end game content. So many people avoid the game entirely because, frankly, there isn’t any. Part of the new player’s experience should be to be able to look forward to later content as they grind out earlier content, but when you present it immediately it simply overwhelms them. 

[Badman_Dan]

Hmm while I definitely get that just because helminth is coming out we can't expect the dev team to just rework a crazy amount of abilities, I do think some potential was lost here.

What's wrong with her 3 (as a subsumable)?
Mirage's eclipse is both an extremely powerful and relatively not all that useful ability, because you're tied to the lighting in rooms. It's effectiveness is highly dependent on tileset, as some tilesets just give you perma-dmg, and some leave you with damage reduction. The unreliablility of the damage reduction means you have to mod for survivability as if it wasn't there. This leaves the incoming dmg reduction unnecessary, and leaving me personally dissapointed about the dmg multiplier being inactive when you're on a darker tileset.
If the difficulty of use and extreme dmg potential weren't troublesome enough for a subsumable ability, I'd personally argue Eclipse is Mirage's most signature ability. This would be mostly due to the vast amount of videos where people use mirage's 3 dmg buff in the simulacrum, and I hate the fact that it is that way, just like the devs do, but I won't deny that it still influences the way people see Mirage (tho this point of signature is very personal).

What do you suggest instead?
Well her 1 is her strongest ablilty so not that, and her 4 is out of the question.
I think there was massive potential to rework her 2, and put that in there. Why? Not just for the sake of mirage, but also imo, there's a lot of dmg buffing abilities on a lot of frames. And while there's nothing wrong with that, it means that for a system like this, a dmg buffing ability doesn't create more interesting ways to play the game. I'd say there's enough subsumable dmg buffs, and enough frames with unsubsumable dmg buffing abilities, where the only reason eclipse would be used, is if it does MORE dmg buffing than another. I believe there's not really anything like her 2 in the game, which would open up new ways of playing.

What would you do to her 2?
Vaguely put? Buff the damage, add damage scaling (because otherwise it'll be a nuke <x lvl, useless >y lvl ability).
Personal recommendation: give it %based true damage, like currently on trinities 2. Something like 25~30% base, but as long as it's just low enough that you can't hit 100% with max power strength.
Give the mines a short fuze/arming timer, something around 0.5~2.0secs. This would allow you to use them as makeshift grenades when need be, but in a way where you always 'feel' like it wasn't meant to do that. It is and should be a mine, at least in principle. For use around defence objectives and as CC this would work easily and excellently.
For the augment, I'd say think Ivara's power of three. Increase the energy cost a bit, put down 3 of the mines, optionally nerf the base damage with the augment down to 15~20%. This would increase CC capability, improve effectiveness as a whole, but maybe nerfing damage/energy and grenade usage potential.

Of course I understand that defining exact numbers, and implementing this would take ages. It would be silly to expect DE to so radically rework abilities for this system. However if they look at Mirage or Mirage's subsumable in the future, I hope that they look at this post and at least consider my idea.

[Arkrom]

"We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite)"

What a sad joke, at this point. MR 8 are nowhere near experienced, I'd argue, barely introduced to the game, they get given a system that was promised for veterans. I really don't want to be rude but this paints the new update for me in a very disappointing way, with new player experience getting significantly worse with more stuff getting thrown at them. And yes, I consider MR 8 new players, you can reach it in a week.

[KrazyKavatLady]

On 2020-08-12 at 11:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

This is the opposite of what you should be doing.

It would make more sense to BUFF the other subsumed abilities instead, making them more attractive to players. 

Please reverse course. Ya'll have a bad rap for nerfing fun things; please don't do it again here. Just buff the other abilities instead.

Also, the MR requirement is now too low. It really should be 15-18, minimum. A MR 8 is not an "experienced" player in the slightest. 

[FluterTree]

Just now, Maniac523 said:

I seem to recall hearing you guys talk about this system being specifically for high MR players and it would intentionally be locked behind high MR so new players could not access it. Didn't take long to go back on that bit I see. This system should be locked behind MR20. Now accounts that are barely a week old will be able to access it. This is a mistake.

have you crafted a moa pet from fortuna, you get an achivement on steam and its locked at mr 0, yet steam says only 1.6% of people who have played the game have it. MR requirement means nothing if they have to farm to aquire it. they say its for vets because vets will spend the time of day to actulty actively get the system while other people dont. it could be MR 5 and there will be only the high MR people who have the system because they got to level 3 in the syndicate

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, bibmobello said:

 Inaros +eclipse even with less damage buff, will deal more damage than mirage because he doesn't care to die, at least on "normal levels" and it's 2 is just trash.

Don't care.  I don't want a worse version of an ability regardless of how you spin it.

5 hours ago, trst said:

Every single time they've made changes shortly after release we get every other person that day one'd the content crawl out of the woodwork demanding compensations and refunds. And every time they make them long after we somehow get the exact same complaints and demands with no justified reasons.

The system was announced multiple times as being subject to change and it got changed. It shouldn't be surprising that people manage to still get upset considering how this community is yet it still manages to be.

And yes as far as I'm concerned the changes are fully justified and welcomed. The only thing I question is why the MR restriction was lowered as while I understand their reasoning I still don't believe it wise to allow "early" players to have access to such a system. Yet we'll still get players with 1k+ hours into the game complaining that they donated a frame without knowing that it would be lost or that they somehow used the one with all their Forma so I guess it doesn't matter what the restriction is.

Saying something is subject to change is not a free pass to hand wave valid crticism.  DE can and still probably will make adjustments post launch of the system.  So your point is moot.

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

They gave us no actual numbers on these changes so we don't know if these nerfs are heavy at all, that said I welcome them balancing conservatively off the bat so people don't wind up getting over invested in things that may face balance changes afterwards, we've seen a lot of disappoint from that route of balancing and DE doing this is only a good choice. If things come out under tuned we can address it after the fact with far more ease than would come from them coming out over tuned and having to observe them being tampered down. 

Balance can and likely will still happen post launch.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Cram Duahcim said:

This is why its happening. It's so that Rhino isnt turned to a food frame once you have access to the Helminth system.

This makes perfect sense to do this. We still can apply the abilities to any warframe but if you want the best version of Ability X,Y or Z then you have to use the kit its sourced from. 

I'm behind the choice. It makes sense. And it dosent render the system any less impactful. Your still getting an upgrade. 

The notion that any one frame would become invalidated over their ability being on another frame has probably been the most hilarious take on anything i've personally read in a long time.  Rhino is still an excellent early game frame that has a very well rounded kit.  Roar was only one aspect of his kit and not the only reason he was used.  Even in Valkyr's case i'd still use her just because I prefer her exhalted over the other ones.  And I actually use her 3.

If DE wanted to nerf subsumed abilities to give player choice that's at least something understandable.  But they've gone about giving player agency in the worst way possible.  The better way would have been to pick non problematic abilities in the first place and then change said abilities on a base level if they were deemed non valuable.  That way it makes the original frame better whilst making player choice more meaningful.  Instead the devs are nerfing based on potential power creep.  Which they could have avoided by not picking certain abilities to begin with.  And not arbitrarily closing out 4th abilities.  I'd have rathered they just give us a different ability in the tool kit than nerfing the one and keeping it subsumable.

I COULD have given roar to Mirage for a more consistent damage buff.  But now i'd rather just deal with how clunky eclipse can be because at least i'm getting the power I desire.  Nerfing something doesn't inspire me to interact with it regardless of how it would be a buff for another frame or not.  I'd rather ditch her ultimate instead.  Giving us powerful kits like Protea or whisp and then introducing a host of powerful and meaningful abilities to potentially swap with makes player choice interesting and meaningful.  Nerfing a potential meta does not.  And this is exactly why WF continues to stagnate.

[Claric]

1 minute ago, Sahansral said:

hat's the reason why it was an error to put them into the pool in the first place. It's a catch-22 for DE now. There will be rage.

Yes, they have to nerf them into oblivion for the system to offer any real choice...
I'm very curious for the numbers.

I think there would have been rage regardless of how they implemented this system. If they gave us all trash abilities it would have been the same as having all the good abilities. The only difference would have been who would be raging. Their original list minus the nerfs was, in my opinion, their best course of action for reconciling the two extremes; we get some good and some bad abilities. Aside from generally reworking all the underused/underpowered abilities, that was the best alternative.

[Sahansral]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Keyhound:

actually you could do that, and all they would need is revamp the GARBAGE augment. just make the decoy absorb all damage done to loki instead. you then turn it into a utility ability, and a defensive ability at the same time, pointless on an invis frame, but pretty usefull for alot of squishy ones that need a reliable defensive ability.

as for the system, i disagree, for the simple fact that, even with so many bad abilities, you are still able to play around and make FUN combos, like pull into vortex/dome, larva + magnetize, and so on. an ability doesnt need to be best in slot to be useable... it just need to be useable...

Your proposal for decoy still miles below roar and/or breaks the game if you want to make a frame utterly invincible by decoy.
See? It's pretty hard to come up with something onpar with roar.
 

[-KenSasaki90-]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Keyhound:

i think i can speak for most pleople complaing about the nerf when i say, the problem isnt the nerf itself, its THE REASON FOR THE NERF. people will gravitate towards warcry and roar, not just because they are amazing abilities... but because the choice is between roar warcry and tempest barrage, decoy, fireblast, and so on...

for the longest time, people have asked DE to make abilities more fun to play, make frames more useable, more survivable, better synergy... this is their answer, and instead of making those bad abilities better, they deicided they would make better abilities worse to compensate.

this isnt raising the bar, its the complete opposite, they are lowering the quality of what we can pick... and it wont even work, because of how bad the other choices are to begin with...

Sure, i can understand this and you are  right with this.  Doenst have to say anthing to this, my point was another for this post that i can understand the nerfs. But again, your right.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

10 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

-snip-

I don't know how long you have been playing warframe, or just playing games in general, but DE and of course the gaming industry are obsessed with recycling old BS again and again. They are never going to stop, because it's easier than trying to come up with something original, and if they DO try to come up with something original, the players say it's the worst thing ever, every time. So they have stopped trying, because why bother?

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, FluterTree said:

have you crafted a moa pet from fortuna, you get an achivement on steam and its locked at mr 0, yet steam says only 1.6% of people who have played the game have it. MR requirement means nothing if they have to farm to aquire it. they say its for vets because vets will spend the time of day to actulty actively get the system while other people dont. it could be MR 5 and there will be only the high MR people who have the system because they got to level 3 in the syndicate

you do realize that you are arguing against yourself there, right? "most people never built moas, that shows that mr means nothing". the only reason i ever built a moa was due to the nightwave asking for it... i have no desire to use moas, so why would i build one. that's the reason why people havent build them, it has nothing to do with MR.

if anything, a new player is more inclined to build a moa than a veteran. because veterans have no need for it besides how they look.

mr8 is not enough time to grasp the system on the game, mr 15 isnt either, but its a literall timewall. lowering the chance of you getting your hands on it before you are ready.

your argument is "mr15 is no proof of being ready", and i agree... but lowering it to 8 is not the answer, not by a long shot.

[Jeancly]

I reached MR 7 in 1 week. MR 8 is not experienced players. MR 15 was more sensible. Why do i care ? because if people get access to this system too early we see this kind of stupid nerf. 

[FluterTree]

4 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

you do realize that you are arguing against yourself there, right? "most people never built moas, that shows that mr means nothing". the only reason i ever built a moa was due to the nightwave asking for it... i have no desire to use moas, so why would i build one. that's the reason why people havent build them, it has nothing to do with MR.

if anything, a new player is more inclined to build a moa than a veteran. because veterans have no need for it besides how they look.

mr8 is not enough time to grasp the system on the game, mr 15 isnt either, but its a literall timewall. lowering the chance of you getting your hands on it before you are ready.

your argument is "mr15 is no proof of being ready", and i agree... but lowering it to 8 is not the answer, not by a long shot.

The reason I used MOA's was because it has a lower achivement% than getting max rank with fortuna, the system that has a higher MR cap because of daily standing has more % than a thing that has no cap

1.8% craft a moa
2.2% "Reach top standing with Solaris Unite"

remeber the system is locked behind rank 3 of the sydicate

[Keyhound]

3 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Your proposal for decoy still miles below roar and/or breaks the game if you want to make a frame utterly invincible by decoy.
See? It's pretty hard to come up with something onpar with roar.
 

i think you missedd the point i made, its not meant to make it ON PAR with roar, its supposed to give frames that need survivability a solid choice. not every frame needs roar, but roar does give enough boost to be great on pretty much any frame you put it on.

which is why roar is considered the default choice. because its good no matter what. sometimes, being able to survive is more important than overkilling an enemy. and i bet, it would make it a better choice for certain frames that do not need extra dmg.

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, FluterTree said:

The reason I used MOA's was because it has a lower achivement% than getting max rank with fortuna, the system that has a higher MR cap because of daily standing has more % than a thing that has no cap

and? because something easier to do has lower % doesnt mean mr pointless. it just means, people arent interested in doing it.