Helminth Mastery Rank "Gatekeeping"

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb -CdG-Zilchy:

Actually no, I'm a vet and I'm disappointed that yet again, after stating that something is for more advanced players, DE has flip flopped and folded like a busted flush. I also realise that this will probably lead to the infested planet being watered down to cater for new players as well, despite earlier contrary evidence and DE's assurances. I don't give a damn that roar was nerfed, I was one of the ones saying it was a dumb ability to give us.

Hmm, now that you mention it, I really hope, that the new planet is NOT watered down... Fingers crossed.

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, (XB1)Kuhl MC said:

Hmm, now that you mention, I really hope, that the new planet is NOT watered down... Fingers crossed.

 

It will be. Other than maybe that giant worm, I'm expecting a casual fest and if not, it will be 1 week after release after the tears flood the forums because someone died to a bug.

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb -CdG-Zilchy:

It will be. Other than maybe that giant worm, I'm expecting a casual fest and if not, it will be 1 week after release after the tears flood the forums because someone died to a bug.

I' ll try to stay optimistic, but somehow, I feel, you might be right 😉

[-CdG-Zilchy]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Kuhl MC said:

I' ll try to stay optimistic, but somehow, I feel, you might be right 😉

I will pray that you are right instead 😕

[(PSN)Yggranya]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Foreknowledge also plays a part in experience. You call someone experienced in X because he has knowledge regarding X.

Pfft. You call someone experienced because they have experience.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

12 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Recently, it was announced that the Helminth Mastery Rank requirement would be reduced from 15 to 8. Now, personally I'm MR27, so this change really doesn't affect me. I'm not going to call for a reversion to MR15, because quite frankly it doesn't make a difference to me, and I don't really understand why it would make a difference for you if you're MR15+.

As a matter of consistency, it seems that MR8 is not an unreasonable requirement. That is the highest required mastery rank for all Warframes (Banshee Prime, Oberon Prime, and Mirage Prime), and since Helminth closely relates to Warframe, I don't really see an issue here.  You could argue that MR15 is the highest requirement for all weapons (e.g. Kuva Bramma and other Lich weapons), but I find it doubtful that a nerfed Rhino Roar is really comparable in terms of raw power. I'd also point out that the Helminth system will likely be part of the selling/advertising point for Heart of Deimos, and accessibility sells (DE is a company after all).

Anyone care to share their opinions (civilly) on this matter?

I dont have any data in front of me on how far the average player in this game actually is.

 

My gut feeling is that it would in fact be kind of an oof to have such an impactful system locked behind such a high MR.

 

And yes, I think MR15 is a big mountain to climb if you're just starting out and are like 1-4.

[Vlada91]

Yea that nice, im M. Rank 22 but its nice to know that they changed that for other players... And now it make more sense then before... 

[(XBOX)TwinStripeUK]

12 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Recently, it was announced that the Helminth Mastery Rank requirement would be reduced from 15 to 8. Now, personally I'm MR27, so this change really doesn't affect me. I'm not going to call for a reversion to MR15, because quite frankly it doesn't make a difference to me, and I don't really understand why it would make a difference for you if you're MR15+.

As a matter of consistency, it seems that MR8 is not an unreasonable requirement. That is the highest required mastery rank for all Warframes (Banshee Prime, Oberon Prime, and Mirage Prime), and since Helminth closely relates to Warframe, I don't really see an issue here.  You could argue that MR15 is the highest requirement for all weapons (e.g. Kuva Bramma and other Lich weapons), but I find it doubtful that a nerfed Rhino Roar is really comparable in terms of raw power. I'd also point out that the Helminth system will likely be part of the selling/advertising point for Heart of Deimos, and accessibility sells (DE is a company after all).

Anyone care to share their opinions (civilly) on this matter?

On one hand, I think that the requirement should have been bumped to MR16, as the ability to subsume and reassign abilities should be restricted to those who've at least had a chance to collect and level a few different frame types so they can understand how abilities work and interact (and this is coming from an MR15 player currently). The ability to design 'custom' frame builds should be something to aspire to...

On the other hand, completely ignoring 90% of your playerbase in order to appease the remaining 10% really hasn't done games like Destiny 2 any favours (which is why it's currently carrying Warframe's books home on the Steam Charts).

At the end of the day, I think the most telling point will be the lack of resources available to feed 'Audrey II' for players with limited time in the game - it'll be that which dictates how quickly max level is achieved, not Mastery Rank. Plus, having a full rank and no spare frames to subsume means players will be out grinding frame parts and building up clans and more players farming resources means more players across the map, which gives a better impression of 'population' to newcomers.

So maybe not specifically the right choice for me, but probably the right one for the game overall

[(XBOX)TwinStripeUK]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont have any data in front of me on how far the average player in this game actually is.

Every time it comes up on Reddit, the usual response is MR10 - MR12, which sounds about right from what I see in the population

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

Just now, (XB1)TwinStripeUK said:

Every time it comes up on Reddit, the usual response is MR10 - MR12, which sounds about right from what I see in the population

yeah. I can buy that. 

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Kuhl MC said:

Hmm, now that you mention it, I really hope, that the new planet is NOT watered down... Fingers crossed.

 

i worry about this too. As a player that actually enjoys the grind in a game about grind, i dont want reaching max rank to be a cake walk. Too many people complain about having reasons to play the game. I dont want to be finished with Deimos in a week. 

[AlphaPHENIX]

13 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

In my opinion, how they should do it is instead of basing it on mastery rank, they should do it based on warframe mastery completion. 

Kind of like you need to complete the map for arby's. 

You need to have mastered a vanilla OR prime copy of each warframe once before you can have access to warframe customization. 

This was why I supported a high mastery requirement to begin with. You should not be doing this if you haven't mastered all the frames yet. 

That would even lock me out as I am behind on frames. And I would be totally okay with that. 

While I like that you atempted to have a novel idea, I also haven't completed my framedex and am not totally ok with it.

I refuse to dump Simaris standing on rebuilding Titania after having trashed her immidietly after the Silver Grove, out of spite for her Razorwing being an insult to Zepphyr.
I still don't have Hyldryn, and for that matter Baruuk. You know why? I am of the opnion that Profit Taker is far too annoying to farm. I did it once for the lore, was ok. I don't care if a squad could easily carry me, I don't care if I miss out on Nightwave standing, I am not doing that fight again.
Do own/owned every other frame so far, but I can't say I am exactly interested in playing many of them most of the time.
Haven't tried Vauban since his rework, since I was only ever interested in playing him for fun, as an artist, making sculptures out of Tesla Link...which is gone now. However, I admit I have a spare ready in the foundry for subsuming, so I can throw Tesla Nervos, which I recognise as an upgrade to old Tesla and am not mad about, on some other frame I normaly have more fun with.
Currently farming Protea, honestly I only remeber her 4 was some time schenanigans like 5% of the time I think about Protea. Not too intrigued, fancy neither her fashion nor kit, but I did recently make up a Frost build that could use Dispensary.
[Insert more examples here]

Hard no from me.

PS: Forgot to mention Nidus, but that one I am just being lazy on, no other reason. Will get them eventually.

[General-Pacman]

I want to share a little piece of trivia I found while reading reddit. This is from the wiki article regarding ayatan stars:

Quote

(...) Inserting Stars will also cause the Sculpture to visually animate, with more Stars improving the Sculpture's range of movement. At Mastery Rank 10, players gain the ability to auto-install Stars into their Sculptures.

Apparently, mastery rank 8 players are experienced enough to fiddle with the Helminth system, but not enough to be able to auto install stars in sculptures.
I was a bit upset when the mastery requirement for the Helminth was lowered, but reading this makes me wonder if DE has any clue on how to match mastery with experience; so maybe I was expecting too much.

[BETAOPTICS]

The way I see it is to give some form of continuity and incentive to continue further. Requirements for different systems have consistently been reduced and to be fair for a perfectly valid and good reason as well. So I am neither saying I am the arbiter of what ought to be nor am I suggesting that the authors criticism is misplaced or invalid. However I do believe that eventually the game has to "progress" beyond that MR 8 level and be less afraid of higher MR levels as well. There is enough of content to have an access to that a player can achieve MR 29 rank and nearly 30% up to MR 30 rank. Getting MR 8 isn't a lot, getting to MR 15 is decent and maybe it could be lower than that, but it is still quite doable without requiring excessive investment. However my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt in mind, since I am MR 29 and not affected by any of these things regardless so take my input as you will.

[844448]

5 hours ago, Galuf said:

I'm responding to a console player on a forum that was initialy destined to a pc game, I'm not banking against anything here. There are limits to stupidity and I think you it is a bit overreaching thinking that a vocal amount of player will #*!% up on that. I find those statements a bit unnecessarily degrading, player with a gamepad for everything.

[844448]

3 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

It will be. Other than maybe that giant worm, I'm expecting a casual fest and if not, it will be 1 week after release after the tears flood the forums because someone died to a bug.

If I get a bullet for someone crying to water down things from anywhere and people who just agreed, I'm sure I'll have enough to execute the whole earth population twice

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, 844448 said:

If I get a bullet for someone crying to water down things from anywhere and people who just agreed, I'm sure I'll have enough to execute the whole earth population twice

NICE lol

[HoustonDragon]

15 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Recently, it was announced that the Helminth Mastery Rank requirement would be reduced from 15 to 8. Now, personally I'm MR27, so this change really doesn't affect me. I'm not going to call for a reversion to MR15, because quite frankly it doesn't make a difference to me, and I don't really understand why it would make a difference for you if you're MR15+.

MR8 is fine, imo. It's high enough to require players to level to unlock the Warframes, and gives them the opportunity to experiment for their future gameplay.

 

Only downside is someone at that Mastery will likely not have a ton of extra stored materials, especially if they're building up other weapons/frames, so it will also already make them limit and weigh how often they want to subsume stuff.

[(NSW)Reason]

Considering how easy it is to get to MR 8, this is the worst thing the community has cried about. No matter what perspective you're coming from, it matters exactly 0 to everyone.

[Canach]

DE tossed MR when they decided to not gate Liches, and therefore Kuva weapons, which are arguably the most powerful weapons in the game. They STILL need to fix that, and now they're doing the same thing with the Helminth system.   >> Warframe is HUGE, Stop giving Endgame to Low MR players!  <<

• Liches AND Helminth warframes should be for advanced MR/achievement players
• MR 8 is too low
• MR 15 is not too high for Liches or for Helminth
• Since Rivens go to MR16 requirement, and there are no other gates above that "I think" that there should be a significant player base at L16, so L15 is good, BUT real statistics should be considered i.e. Master Ranks of all players who have played in the last 180 days, and maybe the top 30-40% should be considered for MR gate for Liches and for Helminth warframes.

BTW, I am MR 21, and have played casually off and on since 2013.

EDIT:  At LEAST gate it by completion of all story-line quests!

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

5 hours ago, Hokibukisa said:

My theory: Vets aren't actually upset about the MR change. (I mean, if you are.. you do realize how pathetic you are looking.. don't you? forshame)

They are instead being coy about what they are really upset about, which is the changing of subsumed abilities, and not wanting to look like babies upset about their plans for Roar and Warcry being dashed, and are using the MR rank change as an excuse for cathartic release.

Counter argument: I’m upset over the MR lock reduction because I’m convinced DE used the ability nerfs as a smokescreen to justify the reduction. “Can’t have a newbie have Roar, better nerf it so the MR8 lock makes sense”.

[SenorClipClop]

39 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I’m upset over the MR lock reduction because I’m convinced DE used the ability nerfs as a smokescreen to justify the reduction. “Can’t have a newbie have Roar, better nerf it so the MR8 lock makes sense”.

I don't think those things are intrinsically related.

I think they plan on nerfing those abilities (when subsumed) becasue they either "kill a frame" or they become "the only option".

• Kill a frame: Reb talks about this in interview with Shy, using Zephyr as the example. Or specifically, Turbulence. Turbulence is great, Zephyr's best ability, but if were shareable to any frame it would effectively kill a lot of people's incentive to play Zephyr at all. This is also why a bunch of people were against Warcry being subsume-able when that was announced, as they felt it would effectively kill Valkyr. Having a tone-down Warcry available to anyone means that you can still have the feature to beef up Baruuk or Excal, but Valkyr still retains some distinction in that she does this good thing best.
• "The only option": Soren Johnson (a lead designer from the Civilization games) puts it like this: "a single, dominant strategy actually takes away choice from a game because all other options are provably sub-optimal. The sweet spot for game design is when a specific decision is right in some circumstances but not in others, with a wide grey area between the two extremes. Games lose their dynamic quality once a strategy emerges that dominates under all conditions." (GD Column 17: Water Finds a Crack) As soon as the Dev Workshop dropped, youtubers and others rushed to start clickbaiting "the new meta" of Roar etc. I saw people on the Forums (mostly people I've seen here forever) express that the inclusion of Roar and others was obviously OP, and that the devs should really swap or nerf these options within the subsume system before relese so that witless players wouldn't get super-invested before a nerf dropped. 

Imo, they probably brought down the MR requirement because Helminth is such a huge selling point for the upcoming HoD and more people want access to it earlier, and many might get turned off of the game if they have to wait to get to it. It's about player retention and money. The nerfs are for game balance, and they could've just made those happen anyway without touching the MR req. They don't need a smokescreen here.

[Professor_Aggressor]

IMO 15 was a bit high. There are only a couple of people in our small clan that are high enough for that.  However, I think 8 is a bit low.  Others have mentioned that at MR 8, players get bombarded with a lot of new things. I think MR 10 would be a little more reasonable.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't think those things are intrinsically related.

I think they plan on nerfing those abilities (when subsumed) becasue they either "kill a frame" or they become "the only option".

I saw people on the Forums (mostly people I've seen here forever) express that the inclusion of Roar and others was obviously OP, and that the devs should really swap or nerf these options within the subsume system before relese so that witless players wouldn't get super-invested before a nerf dropped. 

And I got abused for about 10 pages for suggesting it lol

9 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Imo, they probably brought down the MR requirement because Helminth is such a huge selling point for the upcoming HoD and more people want access to it earlier, and many might get turned off of the game if they have to wait to get to it. It's about player retention and money. The nerfs are for game balance, and they could've just made those happen anyway without touching the MR req. They don't need a smokescreen here.

This is absolutely bang on the truth.

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

And I got abused for about 10 pages for suggesting it lol

Sorry you got hit with the toxic end of our people, Tenno.

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

This is absolutely bang on the truth.

Thanks!