Auction in warframe and why we need a market system rework

[Oreades]

I think the key issue at hand isn't that an in game market wouldn't be useful to the players...... it would. 

The problem at hand is that Warframes economy would bottom out overnight because it is in point of fact a raging dumpster fire. The only thing standing between the players and the inferno is the obfuscation of the horrible system we currently have and DE knows it. 

People look at the in game market with a glint of plat in their eye because it would be easier for them but they don't realize all of their dragons hoard would be fetching 1plat ea. Not to mention that DE would need to seriously look into account binding rivens that where traded on the market to avoid massive abuse of the only aspect of the system that might not flatline on day zero. 

[Fl_3]

The question people should be asking is Will Tencent continue to allow a 3rd party to have a say in the markets of Warframe, or will they insist that everything is brought in house and in game?

No one knows just how hands on our new Chinese overlords are going to be yet, they may insist that DE incorporate all plat transactions taking part in the game to be handled through systems contained within the game and not orchestrated through Warframe Market.

I for one hope so, as it would get rid of all the annoying "I'd like to buy" spam when your in the middle of a mission. We could just queue up our sales and get the prompt to check our mailbox when we get back to the orbiter.

Bliss!

[Rebore]

I would be fine with a little more of a better filter system or & like some type of sub channels or just new channels under the main Recruiting & Trade chat channels so that my recruit message won't be flooded by 5 clan recruitment messages or sub channels for rivens, mods, ect in which it would be easier. Right now I just filter WTB & WTS an still get both sometimes because you have people who put both in their message so that it will be filtered into someones chat or has only WTB or WTS filtered to be shown & so I see messages that are selling rivens but WTB some stupid thing that prob put so that their rivens will be shown to every WTB Filter player. One can wish & I highly doubt DE will update this or anything in the game other than the tiles because they have updated the tiles but nothing else in the game. They bring new S#&$ into the game & then S#&$ on everything else that is already in the game.

[CatboyPrincess]

10 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

I mean, the current system works fine. There is no reason to change the trading system. There is no reason to make it easier to get premium currency as DE, as a business, wants us to pay for plat...

Current system is garbage. I'm #*!%ing sick and tired of constantly relying on third party tools and 90s era trading methods.

[WhiteMarker]

6 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Current system is garbage. I'm #*!%ing sick and tired of constantly relying on third party tools and 90s era trading methods.

And still you are using it.
So as I said, it works fine.
If suddenly the amount of trades would cave in. Nobody would trade anymore, then this would be a clear sign that the system has issues. But as long as people are using it as much as they do right now, DE doesn't need to change anything and so they don't have to risk anything by changing the system and possibly messing up the whole market...

[ThorienKELL]

We had this discussion so many many times.
People are generally oblivious and uninformed (that's just an eloquent way to say stupid btw ; ) so they generally don't know what are they asking.
Yea, I'm aware, AH iv very convenient, but remember, convenience has it's price. 

In short AH, as per global, automatic unlimited and efficient trading system would seriously affect game economy. Everything would become cheap and readily available.
It would de-value platinum and seriously affect income of developer. In return, developer would be forced to introduce new and now necessary systems of monetization;
Tell me, how does small monthly fee to play the game sounds like? Premium time maybe? Or what is your stance on loot boxes? 

So no, AH is undesirable and we will never have one - and wf.market is NOT the same thing(if someone tries to pull the old "we already have AH...!" argument) . 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

And still you are using it.
So as I said, it works fine.
If suddenly the amount of trades would cave in. Nobody would trade anymore, then this would be a clear sign that the system has issues. But as long as people are using it as much as they do right now, DE doesn't need to change anything and so they don't have to risk anything by changing the system and possibly messing up the whole market...

When there is no other choice claiming something is fine is not quite accurate. That's dark ages logic right there- what do you wanna do next ? ask DE to tear down teh third party sites by calling them heretics?

Walking is fine so no need to make bikes or motor vehicles right cause its not needed?

Neither you nor i have the numbers of what the trades look like, if they improved or got worse since the introduction of the various sites that allow referencing. and how DE is ultimately making money off it,

Any mechanism that benefits from ignorance needs to be changed.

11 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

We had this discussion so many many times.
People are generally oblivious and uninformed (that's just an eloquent way to say stupid btw ; ) so they generally don't know what are they asking.
Yea, I'm aware, AH iv very convenient, but remember, convenience has it's price.

And that price needs to be paid for in a suitable manner not completely made unavailable.

12 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

In short AH, as per global, automatic unlimited and efficient trading system would seriously affect game economy. Everything would become cheap and readily available.
It would de-value platinum and seriously affect income of developer. In return, developer would be forced to introduce new and now necessary systems of monetization;
Tell me, how does small monthly fee to play the game sounds like? Premium time maybe? Or what is your stance on loot boxes?

DE is already balls deep in unnecessary bloat on multilevel RNG and grind that incentivizes plat sinks. You are also assuming worst case scenarios and assuming trade mechanisms will be unrestricted and ungoverned.

You are just rising strawmen to burn ,

there needs to be a cost to convenience in proper ratio.

18 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

So no, AH is undesirable and we will never have one - and wf.market is NOT the same thing(if someone tries to pull the old "we already have AH...!" argument) . 

This is only your opinion , which is fine , you don't want an AH cause of your perceived threats to the game economy with no real counter point,

Please also explain how warframe.market is not an auction house.

The only thing it is not ,currently, is easily accessible to majority of players as it is a different site which is not advertised in game.

I wonder how well things will be if a bot keeps advertising it every minute on the trade chat :)

 

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

When there is no other choice claiming something is fine is not quite accurate. That's dark ages logic right there- what do you wanna do next ? ask DE to tear down teh third party sites by calling them heretics?

Walking is fine so no need to make bikes or motor vehicles right cause its not needed?

Neither you nor i have the numbers of what the trades look like, if they improved or got worse since the introduction of the various sites that allow referencing. and how DE is ultimately making money off it,

Any mechanism that benefits from ignorance needs to be changed.

Oh please, don't be like that.
I'm just assuming things. So is everyone else. It's just that you don't have to be a genius to come up with an auction house. DE even talked about it on multiple streams. The fact that they haven't made one in all this time in addition to them saying they don't want one just shows me that there also is no reason to implement one.
And DE has enough people checking the numbers, checking that DE is still making enough money. So they seem to make enough money as of right now. And it's also safe to assume that they checked if maybe an auction house would be a valuable addition. Why do you think it's safe to assume? As I said, DE talked about it on multiple streams. They are aware of that matter.

I just think that instead of posting a thread every other day it would be better to ask on streams about an auction house on a regular basis...

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

Oh please, don't be like that.
I'm just assuming things. So is everyone else. It's just that you don't have to be a genius to come up with an auction house. DE even talked about it on multiple streams. The fact that they haven't made one in all this time in addition to them saying they don't want one just shows me that there also is no reason to implement one.
And DE has enough people checking the numbers, checking that DE is still making enough money. So they seem to make enough money as of right now. And it's also safe to assume that they checked if maybe an auction house would be a valuable addition. Why do you think it's safe to assume? As I said, DE talked about it on multiple streams. They are aware of that matter.

I just think that instead of posting a thread every other day it would be better to ask on streams about an auction house on a regular basis...

Sorry if i sounded heated , but i did see a post actually asking for the third party site to be brought down, what the #*!% was the guy thinking ? completely illogical.

But i stand by my belief that "this is fine" is not a suitable argument.

It is true we are all assuming things - some are putting thoughts behind it and some are not (from both sides ) -  some arguments are valid and some are not - some are just pointless words put together,

as to the Dev comments - I really do not trust DE in thinking things through - what we see are Devs and community management teams - the Devs cannot comment on that aspect (they especially should not on public streams) as they are not responsible for the monetization, the business management team (normally) is  - which does not release any comments or their own preferences to the public.

DE (Devs) making any claims regarding it is worth as much as a substitute teacher declaring scholarship for everyone.

They may choose not to implement it - it is their game and they have final say - but I as a player and consumer of their services will make my disappointment be known.

But i will support every discussion and suggestion requesting it until DE either implements it or closes down or at least till they open a "trading changes mega thread" in the feedback section.

[ThorienKELL]

39 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And that price needs to be paid for in a suitable manner not completely made unavailable.

DE is already balls deep in unnecessary bloat on multilevel RNG and grind that incentivizes plat sinks. You are also assuming worst case scenarios and assuming trade mechanisms will be unrestricted and ungoverned.

You are just rising strawmen to burn ,

there needs to be a cost to convenience in proper ratio.

This is only your opinion , which is fine , you don't want an AH cause of your perceived threats to the game economy with no real counter point,

Please also explain how warframe.market is not an auction house.

The only thing it is not ,currently, is easily accessible to majority of players as it is a different site which is not advertised in game.

There cannot be "const to convenience" in proper ratio if we're discussing real AH here. I have no problem with limited forms of local trading, we already have maroo bazaar but that's crap; let's say improved maroo bazaar, where you put your goods to your kiosk; and they are visible to anyone that visits virtual "market place", while you're online.
Otherwise, either you have proper AH or you don't. 

One side note: In order to game have good AH system, it must be introduced with the game from day 1. Only that way economy could be balanced around it. 
In short: Warframe economy depends on inefficient trading. Convenient trading would massively and negatively affect WF economy and that's merely a logical fact. 

There is nothing "perceived" here, events I've described are self-explanatory. Unlimited supply will most definitely affect the demand and global currency pricing. I already presented a case, your refusal to acknowledge that it's really not my problem and I am certainly not going to waste my time explaining anything to you since your mind has already been set. 

Suffice to say that you have an opinion and I (and DE) disagree. 
 

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

There cannot be "const to convenience" in proper ratio if we're discussing real AH here. I have no problem with limited forms of local trading, we already have maroo bazaar but that's crap; let's say improved maroo bazaar, where you put your goods to your kiosk; and they are visible to anyone that visits virtual "market place", while you're online.
Otherwise, either you have proper AH or you don't.
 

Very well then hows about a "taxed trade market system" as a term , as you seem to have issues with the term and not the concept itself.

3 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

One side note: In order to game have good AH system, it must be introduced with the game from day 1. Only that way economy could be balanced around it. 
In short: Warframe economy depends on inefficient trading. Convenient trading would massively and negatively affect WF economy and that's merely a logical fact.

It should ideally have been introduced with the conception , but i think trading itself came in a later update.

I agree it will affect the economy , mostly those that benefit from the ignorance of others will be suffering significantly. I do not know the numbers (not just intra player trade , but also actual plat purchases and sinks) to make any comments of how it will affect DE as a whole.

you are confusing logical facts and derived conclusion (based on logical assumptions which i cannot see) . They are not necessarily the same thing.

9 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

There is nothing "perceived" here, events I've described are self-explanatory. Unlimited supply will most definitely affect the demand and global currency pricing. I already presented a case, your refusal to acknowledge that it's really not my problem and I am certainly not going to waste my time explaining anything to you since your mind has already been set.

why do you believe supply is unlimited?

I do not see your case , please link or reference it. If it exists i will reconsider my opinion. else i will consider it only a perception on your part.

I have made my own case which i do not see you countering in this thread itself.

[ThorienKELL]

11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I do not see your case , please link or reference it. If it exists i will reconsider my opinion. else i will consider it only a perception on your part.I have made my own case which i do not see you countering in this thread itself.

Let's trim the clutter here:
My case is; Efficient global trading would affect prices, devaluate the currency and negatively affect developer's income.
Source: having a working brain.

Your case is: "No."
"But ... but I want to sell all my sh!t right NOW and get shiny plat! And... and i want to be able to buy everything cheaply asap! GIBB! You see, here it's all about MEEE!"

[(PSN)thowed]

Id laugh if they put in an AH and you could only buy things with credits.  Platinum trades would remain as is.

 

[0_The_F00l]

23 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

Let's trim the clutter here:
My case is; Efficient global trading would affect prices, devaluate the currency and negatively affect developer's income.
Source: having a working brain.

Ah so it is merely a perception , thanks for clarifying. though i do agree there will be reduction high value items, but the mid to low value items would likely be unchanged.

24 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

Your case is: "No."
"But ... but I want to sell all my sh!t right NOW and get shiny plat! And... and i want to be able to buy everything cheaply asap! GIBB! You see, here it's all about MEEE!"

i make none of these points, you seem to be projecting some of your fears on all people that disagree with you. i do agree it will affect the economy but i don't make a claim on how much it will impact the income of DE.

Things may be cheaper but there will be a lot more sale and so more tax and a better plat sink through the tax as it will have more visibility.

[ThorienKELL]

25 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah so it is merely a perception , thanks for clarifying. though i do agree there will be reduction high value items, but the mid to low value items would likely be unchanged.

i make none of these points, you seem to be projecting some of your fears on all people that disagree with you. i do agree it will affect the economy but i don't make a claim on how much it will impact the income of DE.

Things may be cheaper but there will be a lot more sale and so more tax and a better plat sink through the tax as it will have more visibility.

I'm sorry, I was teasing and exaggerating a bit but ultimately; those are the reasons that proponents of AH usually go by; Easy and convenient way of selling stuff (quick plat), and easy and convenient (and cheap) way of getting stuff. So ultimately it is a (selfish) tool of circumventing gameplay, ie. "grind".

It most certainly does not improve game in any way, but it does allow players to cut lot of "undesirable" content off. Why would you pick flowers and search silver groove to defeat specter when you can get mods for few plat? 

And I'm unclear of this yours "it's merely a perception" - yes, I do not have statistical analysis at hand but neither have you - I do know however that Diablo staff removed AH for similar reasons. Play, don't buy. I happen to agree with that philosophy. 

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

I'm sorry, I was teasing and exaggerating a bit but ultimately; those are the reasons that proponents of AH usually go by; Easy and convenient way of selling stuff (quick plat), and easy and convenient (and cheap) way of getting stuff. So ultimately it is a (selfish) tool of circumventing gameplay, ie. "grind".

Is wanting to get stuff faster instead of a 3 hour boring and uninteresting grind cause i actually have a life outside the game selfish? Trading in a F2P should be to skip part of the grind that i am not interested in but which others are willing to spend time on. DE brought this upon themselves by adding so much RNG levels to the game.

15 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

It most certainly does not improve game in any way, but it does allow players to cut lot of "undesirable" content off. Why would you pick flowers and search silver groove to defeat specter when you can get mods for few plat?

By that logic Trading as a concept should not exist in the game :P

17 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

And I'm unclear of this yours "it's merely a perception" - yes, I do not have statistical analysis at hand but neither have you - I do know however that Diablo staff removed AH for similar reasons. Play, don't buy. I happen to agree with that philosophy. 

Both of us only have opinions , hence i am clear when i make my points that it is possibility and not a certainty. when we discuss the pros and cons with an open mind we can reach a proper consensus respectfully on what is "probably" a good idea for some perceived reason (or not).

I don't think Diablo is a good example as it depends on extremely random loot drops from godly but useless for your class to moderate but acceptable to crappy but suitable to your niche playstyle.

I really do not like rivens (which is the closest equivalent to the Diablo loot drops variation) , and am happy to keep them out of the stores or limit it to 1 riven auction per day per seller as a condition.

I actually trade very rarely , i prefer to grind for my things , but if i haven't gotten an item after a certain time and i still really want it is when i look for trade options - i like to enjoy a game i don't want to be frustrated by it.

[CatboyPrincess]

5 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

And still you are using it.
So as I said, it works fine.
If suddenly the amount of trades would cave in. Nobody would trade anymore, then this would be a clear sign that the system has issues. But as long as people are using it as much as they do right now, DE doesn't need to change anything and so they don't have to risk anything by changing the system and possibly messing up the whole market...

i literally don't specifically because it's a S#&$ty, energy-draining system but okay go off

[Angwah]

Hmm, I remain unconvinced an ingame AH would destroy the economy or result in DE selling less platinum.

The current trading 'system' is based on those willing to put up with it, which is obviously not everybody, and I fully believe that even among the current users the market has more buyers than sellers. So, sure, with an ingame AH I would expect prices to drop on some stuff, but not to the extent of utterly bottoming out if they implement it well.

Ok, for the sake of argument lets consider some variations on the following: you can put up a number of items for sale as well as do a number of purchases limited by MR. 

If you limit this to MR times 1 those slots themselves would start limiting supply. Filling your inventory with cheap stuff incurs a real cost of opportunity, and on top of that, such a low cost means it is an item with greater supply than demand, so they would be slow movers on top. This would mean only those who have nothing better would bother with this, for all the rest it's not worth the hassle and they would quickly move on to supplying items with greater margins.

Now, you can play around with how many slots your inventory has, how many purchases you can do, you can add a trade tax, you can either implement the AH as a replacement of the current system, or an alternative. Anyway, the TLDR, there is a huge middle-ground between what we have now and an ingame trading system without any restrictions whatsoever and many, many ways to implement it so the economy wouldn't implode. 

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2020-09-13 at 2:03 AM, alex51xx said:

Today  I selling  my pretty  good  rivets for Rubiko and spend  around  5 hours  to sell it . And I'm start thinking  : what if we have an auction  system  in Warframe ? 

You take your Loki system for example  , set it in auction  terminal , which  be based  in relays and sell it for 200 plat . Game automatically add it in item base and you just go play with your friends  . 

After some time you see , that someone  bought  Loki system for 200 , and you got 90% of sum (10% take auction  terminal ).

It can be really  , really  good  thing  to game . 

No it wouldnt. And if you took more than .5 nanoseconds to think about it you'd realize it. 

 

Right now, if youre selling a loki set, you have to compete with every other person selling a loki set who is also staring at trade chat at the same time as you.

Theres a lot of people who arent online at amy given time and or dont like dealing with trade chat.

 

But adding an auction house would BIGLY increase the number of people youd be competing with. They dont gotta stare at trade chat and probably wouldnt even have to be online? Pfft. How many more loki sets do you think would be for sale? Keep in mind you onky need to be undercut by 1 plat to end up not selling it at all because your loki set is not unique. 

 

The only people who would win in this scenario are the ones who pay money for their plat.

[markus230]

Auction Houses only work in games with a lot of randomized gear and ultra-rare loot (I'm talking about rarity levels which make current rare Necramech mod drop chances look decent in comparison). Warframe doesn't have such a thing outside of Rivens. In case of every other item in the game, AH would cause a quick race to the bottom.

[Angwah]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

No it wouldnt. And if you took more than .5 nanoseconds to think about it you'd realize it. 

Right now, if youre selling a loki set, you have to compete with every other person selling a loki set who is also staring at trade chat at the same time as you.

Theres a lot of people who arent online at amy given time and or dont like dealing with trade chat.

But adding an auction house would BIGLY increase the number of people youd be competing with. They dont gotta stare at trade chat and probably wouldnt even have to be online? Pfft. How many more loki sets do you think would be for sale? Keep in mind you onky need to be undercut by 1 plat to end up not selling it at all because your loki set is not unique. 

The only people who would win in this scenario are the ones who pay money for their plat.

There are some faults in that argument, beyond the obvious ones such as prices being set only by those who are online.

An ingame AH would not just increase supply, it would also increase demand. More people selling will ultimately lead to more people buying. A bigger market is just that, bigger. The assumption here is that the current cross-section of the community which currently engages in trading is wildly divergent of the whole, which I doubt severely.

Also there are ways to limit supply, such as limiting the number of items you can put up for sale by MR for example. And there are more, of course.

While prices for easily obtainable items will indeed drop, after the initial shock the market will stabilize again. There will just be more people participating and it will eventually be healthier.

[trst]

28 minutes ago, Angwah said:

There are some faults in that argument, beyond the obvious ones such as prices being set only by those who are online.

An ingame AH would not just increase supply, it would also increase demand. More people selling will ultimately lead to more people buying. A bigger market is just that, bigger. The assumption here is that the current cross-section of the community which currently engages in trading is wildly divergent of the whole, which I doubt severely.

Also there are ways to limit supply, such as limiting the number of items you can put up for sale by MR for example. And there are more, of course.

While prices for easily obtainable items will indeed drop, after the initial shock the market will stabilize again. There will just be more people participating and it will eventually be healthier.

Increased supply also increases competition and Warframe is a game with finite demand on everything. Supply only goes up while demand only goes down.

The only way the game could ever have a stable market is if it gained brand new trade willing players at a rate fast enough to combat player stockpiling/farming. Which is a rate that must constantly increase as these new players can in turn add to the ever growing supply and must account for players who only sell and never buy. Even limited trade slots isn't a solution as every single trade will still drop global demand and the limit itself would need to be high enough to appease the community, make slots cause us to trade less per day than we currently can and the community will get their pitchforks out.

Some other core aspect of the game needs a reworking in order to create some ongoing stable demand of trade goods. But is the addition of something like limited blueprint inventory, fixed upgrades that require multiple sets for multiple builds, randomized stats on basic gear, or item durability worth more convenient trading?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Is wanting to get stuff faster instead of a 3 hour boring and uninteresting grind cause i actually have a life outside the game selfish? Trading in a F2P should be to skip part of the grind that i am not interested in but which others are willing to spend time on. DE brought this upon themselves by adding so much RNG levels to the game.

By that logic Trading as a concept should not exist in the game :P

Both of us only have opinions , hence i am clear when i make my points that it is possibility and not a certainty. when we discuss the pros and cons with an open mind we can reach a proper consensus respectfully on what is "probably" a good idea for some perceived reason (or not).

I don't think Diablo is a good example as it depends on extremely random loot drops from godly but useless for your class to moderate but acceptable to crappy but suitable to your niche playstyle.

I really do not like rivens (which is the closest equivalent to the Diablo loot drops variation) , and am happy to keep them out of the stores or limit it to 1 riven auction per day per seller as a condition.

I actually trade very rarely , i prefer to grind for my things , but if i haven't gotten an item after a certain time and i still really want it is when i look for trade options - i like to enjoy a game i don't want to be frustrated by it.

So you're willing to control everyone's sales just because you personally don't like rivens? You do realize you personally don't get to control or decide how the AH works, right?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2020-09-13 at 8:08 AM, (XB1)Random Brit7900 said:

Why exactly?

Because they don't understand that Tragedy of the Commons, means that unless they sell for less than the competition, they generally will never make another sale in their lives. And since everyone using the system is going to be undercutting everyone else, most items will sell at prime junk prices. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

38 minutes ago, Angwah said:

An ingame AH would not just increase supply, it would also increase demand. More people selling will ultimately lead to more people buying. A bigger market is just that, bigger. The assumption here is that the current cross-section of the community which currently engages in trading is wildly divergent of the whole, which I doubt severely.

No. Understand that supply is potentially infinite in this game. Demand is restricted to people who don't yet own an item, wish to own it, are willing to pay for it, are able to pay for it, and are online. A person who lacks any of those attributes will not be a buyer. 

The only reason that increased sellers would result in more buying, is that the prices are reduced due to greater supply. Unfortunately since reduced prices will apply to almost every single item in the game, the potential buyer will have a much harder time selling their own stuff to get enough plat to buy the item that they want. That's going drive prices even lower because they will be desperate for a sale. 

Realise that this is not even a worst case scenario of the future, we already see the effects in game currently. Prices fall dramatically whenever an item is introduced, and people are absolutely willing to sell at prime junk rates for fast plat.