Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Compared to what? If you have a dead ability on your warframe, perhaps, but why equip those when you could have Roar instead?

Because why do I need more damage when I already have tons of it? Going faster is always nice, Energized munitions makes certain weapons much more fun to use, Empower is useful for hitting certain strength breakpoints. Granted a bit more niche for Empower, but hardly bad.
As for compared to what:
Shuriken (augment is cool but the more single target nature is rather meh), Silence, Ice Wave (sleep abilties exist), Tempest Barrage, Decoy, Null Star (remember, you need basically 5 mods to reach and maintain 90% DR), Well of Life (Blood Altar too tbh), Tesla Nervos, Spectorage (its aug is mildly useful, and its alright cc, but again, sleep abilities), Terrify (see: sleep/blind abilities, Petrify might belong here too. If I want Armor strip, Fireblast/Pillage exists), and Mind Control off the top of my head.
If we consider only abilities themselves and not augs, you could toss Smite and Shock there too, since they main reason for them is the augs

[Kontrollo]

This whole controversy in a nutshell:

Devs: "More options! (Also gotta push things out asap, because deadline)"

Community: "Yay, I replaced this -- for me -- completely useless ability with this new one that nukes half a room."

Devs: "Whoops, we, as usual, didn't think or test things through. This was the idea: it does what it does when your focus is on the highest threat in the room."

Community: "How dare you! Why do you hate fun!!!"

 

When at the end of the day, it still replaces that formerly "completely useless" ability. 🤔

Should they have another look? Sure, why not. Is this whole drama a reasonable reaction, though?

[Klaeljanu]

The ability was triply bugged,

• It was double dipping on mods,
• Arcane trickery was infinitely dipping by proccing on each mob in the blast radius.
• Its damage calculation was capped by damage dealt, not the mob's max health.

 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

11 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Devs: "Whoops, we, as usual, didn't think or test things through. This was the idea: it does what it does when your focus is on the highest threat in the room."

The issue with that is that they clearly did try to think things through and test them, because they changed a lot of stuff even prior to release (and yes, elements of the community were screeching "how dare you" even back then). The problem is that when you rush, and try to add a lot of stuff all at the same time, something is bound to slip through the cracks. Given the fact that they clearly avoided giving us room wiping nukes, and were clearly trying to reduce the impact of several others so they didn't create op metas, it's not like it can be a huge surprise to anyone that this got nerfed.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The issue with that is that they clearly did try to think things through and test them, because they changed a lot of stuff even prior to release (and yes, elements of the community were screeching "how dare you" even back then). The problem is that when you rush, and try to add a lot of stuff all at the same time, something is bound to slip through the cracks. Given the fact that they clearly avoided giving us room wiping nukes, and were clearly trying to reduce the impact of several others so they didn't create op metas, it's not like it can be a huge surprise to anyone that this got nerfed.

To be honest my bigger issue is that it feels braindead and promotes reductive, spammy gameplay.

Tweaking the numbers until they are just where they need to be is relatively easy. Nerf hard now, get a week of balance stats for the team and have them look at it with fresh eyes and adjust as/if/where needed.

But how do you fix the fact that it's a poorly designed ability to begin with, that promotes a gameplay style, where even if you are going for the heavy unit, even if it is supposed to be small range, you are basically pressing two buttons real quick and deleting a crowd. Balance numbers don't fix that. I'm not sure what can. 

[Kontrollo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The issue with that is that they clearly did try to think things through and test them, because they changed a lot of stuff even prior to release (and yes, elements of the community were screeching "how dare you" even back then). ...

Obviously not well enough, or we wouldn't be where we are now.

But it shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, really. Helminth is a combinatorial explosion.

 

But of course: outrage = Youtube clicks, so I guess although it doesn't show, in the end everyone is still happy in their own way. 😂

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, Xerenova said:

Actually in one of Pablo old livestream on Twitch he personally said he want to nerf Saryn. No news on it yet but in DE fashion they feed the cows full before slaughtering them.

and then the forums and reddit and youtube all exploded over it so hard they backpedaled.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

10 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

To be honest my bigger issue is that it feels braindead and promotes reductive, spammy gameplay.

Tweaking the numbers until they are just where they need to be is relatively easy. Nerf hard now, get a week of balance stats for the team and have them look at it with fresh eyes and adjust as/if/where needed.

But how do you fix the fact that it's a poorly designed ability to begin with, that promotes a gameplay style, where even if you are going for the heavy unit, even if it is supposed to be small range, you are basically pressing two buttons real quick and deleting a crowd. Balance numbers don't fix that. I'm not sure what can. 

You already said it, a nerf that makes it so that it doesn't wipe out everything. Make it situational, so that it has a definite use in a particulary set of circumstances. They went a bit hard, to start with, but can bump it up a bit later when they see what it's capable of.

11 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Obviously not well enough, or we wouldn't be where we are now.

But it shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, really. Helminth is a combinatorial explosion.

 

But of course: outrage = Youtube clicks, so I guess although it doesn't show, in the end everyone is still happy in their own way. 😂

Like I said, something slipped through the cracks in the rush. With all of the permutations that exist, something always will. And yes, youtubers feed on outrage, and the braindead masses always love to adopt that same wannabe edgelord stance. I mean look at how few actually know that Saryn's had quite a few adjustments. all they do is parrot the same old easily disproven lines:

6 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

and then the forums and reddit and youtube all exploded over it so hard they backpedaled.

 👆 Like this one.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Xerenova said:

Actually in one of Pablo old livestream on Twitch he personally said he want to nerf Saryn. No news on it yet but in DE fashion they feed the cows full before slaughtering them.

It was a during personal (i.e. non-work related) stream, and it was Pablo just expressing his feeling that he felt that he didn't quite get her balance down perfectly.
There was even a forum post where DE confirmed there was no nerfs coming at all.

[Kontrollo]

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Like I said, something slipped through the cracks in the rush. With all of the permutations that exist, something always will. And yes, youtubers feed on outrage, and the braindead masses always love to adopt that same wannabe edgelord stance. I mean look at how few actually know that Saryn's had quite a few adjustments. all they do is parrot the same old easily disproven lines:

Yes, we don't disagree at all. Although I should probably amend my line there before someone wants to start an argument on that:

"But of course: outrage = Youtube clicks, so I guess although it doesn't show, in the end everyone is still happy entertained in their own way. 😂"

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It was a during personal (i.e. non-work related) stream, and it was Pablo just expressing his feeling that he felt that he didn't quite get her balance down perfectly.
There was even a forum post where DE confirmed there was no nerfs coming at all.

👆

 

Edit: Just to be clear: my comments here were only made with the drama around MFD in mind. That Saryn is busted in one way or another is a different can of worms for me, and I haven't played her recently, anyway.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

That was just the last nerf that she got. Always helps when people actually look at facts instead of just spouting hyperbole. 

Again, Saryn literally only has an advantage in one very specific type of mission, one with a very high spawn density and a small map. That's why you typically only see her rocking on a few nodes across the entire game. Comparing her kit to a weapon or an ability that you can use anywhere that there's a cluster of enemies is pretty ridiculous. 

 

Seriously you guys need to lay off the youtu.be videos. They rot the brain. 

How exactly is that a nerf when it is in reality a buff? 

Pre-patch = half enemy HP, cant stack, refreshes on each tick.

Post-patch = enemy takes double damage, effectively working the same as halving enemy health, does not refresh or stack per tick, but can be manually stacked by follow up uses of miasma.

Where exactly is that nerf?

[Sharkgoblin]

On 2020-09-20 at 2:21 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

saryn exists

saryn past a certain point is not that great

[killerJoke66]

17 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

nerfing Saryn doesn't solve anything. don't take out your anger on a single frame just because the nerf hit something you like. I get that she's strong, but all you'd get is even more salt. people need to actually think about why stuff gets nerfed. and let's be honest, anyone with 1% of a brain cell knew MfD was never going to stay as it was, and those of you who have been around a while should already know by now that DE are ALWAYS heavy handed with the nerfs, why would this be any different?

doesn't help that the balance team are on vacation either, I wouldn't want to be them right now, they must have facepalmed when they saw the new stats, knowing the reaction that would take place.

then why not simply wait for balance team to return from vacation and  let people do what theyre assigned for in the first place  ? why the rush ? 

[killerJoke66]

12 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

crit removal was fine

crit part wasnt a bug but a direct nerf , was deff not needed

[Cubewano]

16 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

then why not simply wait for balance team to return from vacation and  let people do what theyre assigned for in the first place  ? why the rush ? 

because the entire team is not necessary for any/all balancing i'd assume, and this community gets pretty habitual so the longer something is left to sit the worse the player response to change? people keep wagging this notion around like it some proof of a wrong doing but like didn't we get a very good frame buff the same week this change happened, with this apparently incompetent short staffed team? and several good balance fixes/buff to other items released in deimos? marked isn't even a major balance item, it's a single ability in a system with over fifty other abilities, and it still nukes, people need to clam down about this single ability change being a big deal that needs like an entire staff team to address, which it absolutely does not. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

How exactly is that a nerf when it is in reality a buff? 

Pre-patch = half enemy HP, cant stack, refreshes on each tick.

Post-patch = enemy takes double damage, effectively working the same as halving enemy health, does not refresh or stack per tick, but can be manually stacked by follow up uses of miasma.

Where exactly is that nerf?

Because you get ONE tick, instead of MANY. Having to spam miasma repeatedly to rapidly kill is a surefire way to end up with no energy and have no ability to keep doing so, when facing high level enemies. You'd notice it in how long stuff with more than a tiny number of hp, like the noxes and heavy gunners take to go down, and how ineffective it is outside of having a high spore damage number, which again means that you have to be in a tiny map with a very high spawn rate and density. Even the larger maps in SO are a pain, and forget about even thinking about spamming miasma in ESO.

[killerJoke66]

im more concerned about the consistency tbh , sure the ability reaching absurds amounts of damage was something , but was it different than melee'ing tho , so if M4D was a problem can we deduct melee possible damage over-time or instant outputs are problematic too since  its been out for a quite while and never been changed fundamentally ? not asking for nerfs it just kinda puzzles me so to say , similar example can be said for khoras whip , again not asking for nerfs but if one can use khora why would you use M4D before nerf or after nerf ? and there are donz of things that are better than M4D .. i simply dont why the intensity of the reaction and the inconsistency it brings out .

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Pre-patch = half enemy HP, cant stack, refreshes on each tick.

Post-patch = enemy takes double damage, effectively working the same as halving enemy health, does not refresh or stack per tick, but can be manually stacked by follow up uses of miasma.

Where exactly is that nerf?

Miasma is nerfed because it is no longer a sufficient source of Viral procs - you are going to have Viral on your weapons, making that one proc irrelevant at higher levels. Whereas before, Miasma gave you all the Viral procs you needed (1), so you had another element on your weapon.

Furthermore, the duration of said Viral proc has been roughly cut in half by default. With a little duration you can even get a situation where Miasma still deals damage, but the proc is already gone.

Of course it still kills low level enemies through walls, which is where all the complaints come from.

[taiiat]

12 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Also newer saryn is fairly active, more so then the *apparently* dominant play style back then.

that's not setting the bar very high but yes, Players do have incentive to spin their Camera in circles and such. which is more than the Lowest Common Denominator usage had previously.

but then, are we really going to determine what things should be based on the least Skilled Players? we already did that so there's the answer but theoretically i would say i should certainly hope not.

all they had to do was make small adjustments to Spreading from the Molt Totem, to discourage staring at Molt to AFK low Level Missions. everything else about Saryn was fundamentally designed excellently aside from the limitations/Bugs.
i'm going to have to just pull the rank card on that, and people will just have to trust me based on that Saryn has been the majority of my playtime since Mar.2013 when the Warframe was introduced and i've played Saryn in every Gamemode at every Level (except for Raids but i think that would have been understandable), that, other than that one thing basic Players spammed in low Level Missions and the limitations/Bugs, Saryn 2015 was much better designed than Saryn 2018.

 

7 hours ago, Galuf said:

 Also Miasma was one taping T4 exterminates early on, so I'm pretty sure something has been nerfed there too there

Miasmas' Damage was divided by 4, but now gains quadruple Damage if the Enemy has Spores on it.
they didn't like that Players were just Casting Miasma to Kill whatever was in __ Range in low Level Missions. which i guess is fine.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Furthermore, the duration of said Viral proc has been roughly cut in half by default. With a little duration you can even get a situation where Miasma still deals damage, but the proc is already gone.

this is true, that Miasma doesn't have a consistent Viral Status depending on the Duration. i would prefer if Miasma applied a special Viral Status with longer Duration(the Duration of the Abiilty), which there even is precedence for anyways, wouldn't be the first Warframe to do that.

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because why do I need more damage when I already have tons of it? Going faster is always nice, Energized munitions makes certain weapons much more fun to use, Empower is useful for hitting certain strength breakpoints. Granted a bit more niche for Empower, but hardly bad.

But all of those options are niche, is the issue. Infested Mobility is awful for more constrained tilesets like the Infested Corpus Ship and inconsequential in most others, Energized Munitions can be replaced by an Ammo Mutation mod on the very few guns it has some use for, and Empower benefits... whom, exactly? If you want to reach those Strength breakpoints, why not build for Strength? By contrast, more damage is always desirable because the game will always scale to a point where more damage becomes relevant. That is why Roar gets picked far more than the ones you mentioned.

Quote

As for compared to what:

As compared to what, other mediocre abilities? I myself pointed out that most of the options on offer in the Helminth system were poor, so you are in fact proving me right here. The entire system at best doesn't offer amazing options, just options that are sometimes worth replacing dead abilities for.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Infested Mobility is awful for more constrained tilesets like the Infested Corpus Ship and inconsequential in most others, Energized Munitions can be replaced by an Ammo Mutation mod on the very few guns it has some use for, and Empower benefits... whom, exactly?

"Speed buff bad cause it doesn't work well on this 1 tileset." I for one welcome going fast.
Energized Munitions is useful for low mag/higher RoF guns (hello 4 shot Tonkor, 8 shot Vectis Prime)
Empower benefits Hildryn for breakpoints (allows full strip reliably), and Buffer Chroma/Rhino. Xaku can get added to the list of breakpoint reaching too.
Nova finds use with some speed/slow hybrid. Baruuk can find use of it since Desert Wind typically uses a low duration build. Frost for hitting full strip on his 4 (or close anyway) while keeping the rest of his abilities spammable. And I'm sure others can think of stuff I have not.
I'm not saying they are the best picks, but calling them bad is a stretch.
Not everyone is a whore to damage. Roar does indeed have a very good general applicability. But like I said; we have damage galore already. Enemy nerfs mean that nothing stands a chance even without buffs. I'll take going faster/enjoying weapons more over doing even more overkill.

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

"Speed buff bad cause it doesn't work well on this 1 tileset." I for one welcome going fast.

Except I mentioned it's not great on more than just one tileset, but I suppose for the sake of the argument you'd like them to be spelled out for you. Besides cramped tilesets in which speed buffs tend to be actively detrimental to navigation, such as the Infested Ship, Corpus Ice Planet, Grineer Sealab, and Kuva Fortress, many tilesets aren't big enough for such speed buffs to really matter, e.g. the Grineer Asteroid or Grineer Galleon. Your best bet would be the open levels... but that's what Archwing's for, so tell me... where and when exactly does Infested Mobility provide a substantial benefit compared to a damage or durability steroid?

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Energized Munitions is useful for low mag/higher RoF guns (hello 4 shot Tonkor, 8 shot Vectis Prime)

So two weapons that only few people pick, then, and who can do perfectly fine with Ammo Mutation slotted into their Exilus slot. I was gonna mention the Kohm, but even that's not especially popular.

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Empower benefits Hildryn for breakpoints (allows full strip reliably)

You mean more reliably than just pressing 2 twice?

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

, and Buffer Chroma/Rhino.

... buffer Chroma? Could you list the build for that, and point to where it's used? Roar Rhino seems like the only frame who'd want that, and even then, better alternatives exist in the Helminth system.

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Xaku can get added to the list of breakpoint reaching too.

Which breakpoint, exactly? Why would he need Empower to reach it as opposed to a regular build?

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Nova finds use with some speed/slow hybrid.

If you're building for Speeva and have Empower, you'll be bringing the slow to 50%, which is literally half as effective as the full 75% slow. How is this desirable? Which situations would a speed/slow hybrid be desirable?

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Baruuk can find use of it since Desert Wind typically uses a low duration build.

How does low duration make Empower more desirable?

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Frost for hitting full strip on his 4 (or close anyway) while keeping the rest of his abilities spammable. 

So does he hit the full strip or does he not? Because right now he just needs 250% total Power Strength to max his strip, which can be done without Empower and still keep the rest of his abilities spammable.

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I'm not saying they are the best picks, but calling them bad is a stretch.

If many easily available and significantly more desirable alternatives exist, then these options have no real reason to get picked outside of extremely niche situations and tastes. How is that good?

6 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Not everyone is a whore to damage. Roar does indeed have a very good general applicability. But like I said; we have damage galore already. Enemy nerfs mean that nothing stands a chance even without buffs. I'll take going faster/enjoying weapons more over doing even more overkill.

Some people believe the Earth is flat too, so you're bound to get a dissenting minority for every fact. If you really want to go slower in combat in exchange for going slightly faster in a few rooms, be my guest, but accept that this comes down to your own personal preference, and that the recent dev stream showed that your personal favorite options aren't really that popular.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Because you get ONE tick, instead of MANY. Having to spam miasma repeatedly to rapidly kill is a surefire way to end up with no energy and have no ability to keep doing so, when facing high level enemies. You'd notice it in how long stuff with more than a tiny number of hp, like the noxes and heavy gunners take to go down, and how ineffective it is outside of having a high spore damage number, which again means that you have to be in a tiny map with a very high spawn rate and density. Even the larger maps in SO are a pain, and forget about even thinking about spamming miasma in ESO.

It still does the exact same thing, it didnt get weaker, the status effect simply got stronger since it can stack. You have no need to cast it more often than before since the things die just as fast now as they did pre-patch. If you had to cast it several times before and you need to cast it several times now, it is effectively a buff since you get a higher viral stack on everything within range. Previously you couldnt impact the kill speed at all with following casts since they only refreshed the status duration and tick duration. Or are you under some odd impression that miasma only does one damage instance and that is it? No, it still ticks for damage each second, it just doesnt stack the viral status.

22 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Miasma is nerfed because it is no longer a sufficient source of Viral procs - you are going to have Viral on your weapons, making that one proc irrelevant at higher levels. Whereas before, Miasma gave you all the Viral procs you needed (1), so you had another element on your weapon.

Furthermore, the duration of said Viral proc has been roughly cut in half by default. With a little duration you can even get a situation where Miasma still deals damage, but the proc is already gone.

Of course it still kills low level enemies through walls, which is where all the complaints come from.

No it is the same as before but can be manually stacked. It didnt get worse than before, so it is obviously not nerfed. Nothing was reduced on the ability with the changes. That proc is also not irrelevant since it is a 50+ meter AoE. If you have a 50+ meter AoE viral gun tucked away somewhere please do share! Preferably one with a guaranteed chance to proc aswell.

The problem you describe has been there prior to the latest status change, but then again, who wastes stats on duration for Saryn with infinite spores and baseline long duration on everything else? You can cram in 25% extra duration if you for some odd reason want that in your loadout without even running into the issue you describe.

[Traumtulpe]

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No it is the same as before but can be manually stacked. It didnt get worse than before, so it is obviously not nerfed. Nothing was reduced on the ability with the changes. [...] The problem you describe has been there prior to the latest status change

I am pretty sure you are just wrong. Miasma previously caused a Viral proc with every damage tick, it was changed to proc only once when Viral stacking was introduced - directly reducing the duration of the proc by about 50% (since it previously was effectively Miasma duration + status duration).

[Tesseract7777]

Shouldn't all of this be a matter of record in the patch notes history on the wiki? https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Saryn#Patch History

Why rely on memory when we have a wiki with a written record of every change?