Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists.

[taiiat]

everything is always popularity. it's never not been.

 

1 hour ago, o0Despair0o said:

Why do people keep wanting to kill Saryn? Can't we even have one good, fun  frame these days?

we had one, then bad Players whined for 3 years that Saryn was 'useless' (between Saryn version 2015 and Saryn version 2018), and managed to get their way and get an AFKFarming Warframe. Abilities purpose designed for being AFK and doing as little as possible to hit par in Missions.

the Players aren't concerned with that Saryn is mathematically incapable of being efficient at Killing Enemies, because that's not what they're using those Abilities for. they're using them to get 'Mission Complete' with as much AFK'ing as possible.

 

a shame that Saryn 2015 had to die for such mundaneness. atleast Damage buff Augments can be self applied now. and the cat is out of the bag on giving Toxic Lashs' bonus to Guns instead of giving Guns a different also useful bonus.

but nobody cares about the death of some Abilities that were legitimately interesting to use and offered high power but one had to master the use of their Abilities to get it.
and nobody cares that it couldn't perform better because of arbitrary limitations + Bugs that shouldn't have been there in the first place, limitations of which made it harder for the Lowest Common Denominator to be able to use the Abilities and also limiting quite how much fun the top1% could have with them.

 

thanks for coming to my TED talk. even though nobody will read it or care.

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb taiiat:

everything is always popularity. it's never not been.

 

we had one, then bad Players whined for 3 years that Saryn was 'useless' (between Saryn version 2015 and Saryn version 2018), and managed to get their way and get an AFKFarming Warframe. Abilities purpose designed for being AFK and doing as little as possible to hit par in Missions.

the Players aren't concerned with that Saryn is mathematically incapable of being efficient at Killing Enemies, because that's not what they're using those Abilities for. they're using them to get 'Mission Complete' with as much AFK'ing as possible.

 

a shame that Saryn 2015 had to die for such mundaneness. atleast Damage buff Augments can be self applied now. and the cat is out of the bag on giving Toxic Lashs' bonus to Guns instead of giving Guns a different also useful bonus.

but nobody cares about the death of some Abilities that were legitimately interesting to use and offered high power but one had to master the use of their Abilities to get it.
and nobody cares that it couldn't perform better because of arbitrary limitations + Bugs that shouldn't have been there in the first place, limitations of which made it harder for the Lowest Common Denominator to be able to use the Abilities and also limiting quite how much fun the top1% could have with them.

 

thanks for coming to my TED talk. even though nobody will read it or care.

I'm not sure you know what AFK means.

[taiiat]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I'm not sure you know what AFK means.

i'm well aware - and Peacemaker is still an AFK type Ability. having to give signal input of some sort doesn't make it not just the same anyways.
if you're only concerned about hitting that absolute lowest possible rung of the ladder of that "the Computer still has to receive some input of any sort, so i'm not AFK!!!!" - you're fighting the wrong battle.
if a literal Monkey could replace the actions you're performing in front of your Computer, it's only a hair away from being AFK and it isn't worth trying to insist that it isn't AFK.
if a non Human Being could perform the same actions, you're not winning any battles here.

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb taiiat:

i'm well aware - and Peacemaker is still an AFK type Ability. having to give signal input of some sort doesn't make it not just the same anyways.
if you're only concerned about hitting that absolute lowest possible rung of the ladder of that "the Computer still has to receive some input of any sort, so i'm not AFK!!!!" - you're fighting the wrong battle.
if a literal Monkey could replace the actions you're performing in front of your Computer, it's only a hair away from being AFK and it isn't worth trying to insist that it isn't AFK.
if a non Human Being could perform the same actions, you're not winning any battles here.

Did you ever consider that the reason you're using that kind of insane hyperbole to make your point is because that's the only way to make it work, and that an argument that only works when you exaggerate to a ridiculous degree was never an argument at all? To spell it out: Can you phrase that argument in a way that doesn't involve any stretching of definitions, any exaggerations, any hyperbole? Can you phrase it in such a way that every single thing you say is actually true and still have it work?

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Weak logic, so I'll try to correct that for you.

The keyword there that you used is "run out of pizzas".

If you think a nuke is worth tens of thousands of nano spores and polymer bundles that you have to refarm constantly, you're incredibly lazy and/or plat rich to basically keep buying resource boosters solely to use one nuke playstyle. That playstyle clearly has a massive drawback and isn't sustainable.

If you're not good at math, I can tell you Zenurik dash wouldn't keep up with spamming you have to use pizzas with as well. Zenurik dash is a very slow drip of energy. A pizza is 100 every 7 seconds and you can spam them, once again, at a major cost.

Spreading spores is Saryns thing. Get over it. It's one real nuke frame. 1 out of possibly 3 out of 44 frames. You might as well be jealous that every frame doesn't have invisibility and stealth mechanics.

Saryn can't be used for all content and casual players die with her constantly.

 

If you think i have some kind of beef with saryn, youre totally wrong. I dont have anything to "get over". My point isnt "hey lets slam saryn into the dirt while we're at it" its "it seems like DE cant decide how high they want the power ceiling to be these days. Also, Ive *never* actively gone out of my way to farm resources for energy pizzas and i still have so many of the required resources that i never have less than several hundred in my inventory. Not that it matters or i even need them, between energize and zenurik. I dont buy that saryn has some mythical serious energy drawback unless you decided to run blind rage at max, which she doesnt need, with no efficiency mods, no primed flow, no energize, and no zenurik. 

 

"Saryn cant be used for all content". Im inclined to disagree. I suppose we could debate what constitutes "able to be used in all content" but i feel like if you can say that about saryn i could say the same about MFD builds. 

 

"Casual players die with her constantly". Okay? What kind of point does that prove? Casual players tend to die alot with *most* frames... because theyre casuals. 

Meanwhile i can just chill somewhere in a cloak arrow while spores do their thing. 

[Kaotyke]

6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Did you ever consider that the reason you're using that kind of insane hyperbole to make your point is because that's the only way to make it work, and that an argument that only works when you exaggerate to a ridiculous degree was never an argument at all? To spell it out: Can you phrase that argument in a way that doesn't involve any stretching of definitions, any exaggerations, any hyperbole? Can you phrase it in such a way that every single thing you say is actually true and still have it work?

No, he is right. With the instruction manual, I can make a Macro that I can turn on and off, I just need to make so it imitate the mouse cursor going from Left to Right at a certian speed and I have the old Peacemaker, put a timer to use Subsumed Pull with the Augment, timer on using Shatter Shield and there you go, AFK.

Or I make one that has the mouse go a bit up, down, right, left and back again, should I put Mesa in a corner.

[Jarriaga]

"Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists.".

Sure, let's just blatantly pretend that when a DE employee expressed interest in nerfing Saryn in December 2019 the backlash wasn't so great and vicious that when said developer came to the forums to clarify that just because he would like to nerf Saryn doesn't mean he will do it he was then attacked and crucified because just the thought of nerfing Saryn was unacceptable and all threads tied to the dev's responses were locked and pulled.

Let's just pretend like that didn't happen and that DE are not held hostage by these boards.

[Kaotyke]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

"Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists.".

Sure, let's just blatantly pretend that when a DE employee expressed interest in nerfing Saryn in December 2019 the backlash wasn't so great and vicious that when said developer came to the forums to clarify that just because he would like to nerf Saryn doesn't mean he will do it he was then attacked and crucified because just the thought of nerfing Saryn was unacceptable and all threads tied to the dev's responses were locked and pulled.

Let's just pretend like that didn't happen and that DE are not held hostage by these boards.

I remember that. Pablo was playing Fortnite when he said that IIRC. And people quickly forgot he was the one who made Saryn the way she currently is.

[kevoisvevo]

Mfd had the potential to be the most busted ability in steel path after 2 hours with its billions of damage. Even at some point saryn, mesa, khora stop doing damage and you have to resort to viral bleed builds.mfd was like the old covert lethality with aoe attached to it.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If you think i have some kind of beef with saryn, youre totally wrong. I dont have anything to "get over". My point isnt "hey lets slam saryn into the dirt while we're at it" its "it seems like DE cant decide how high they want the power ceiling to be these days. Also, Ive *never* actively gone out of my way to farm resources for energy pizzas and i still have so many of the required resources that i never have less than several hundred in my inventory. Not that it matters or i even need them, between energize and zenurik. I dont buy that saryn has some mythical serious energy drawback unless you decided to run blind rage at max, which she doesnt need, with no efficiency mods, no primed flow, no energize, and no zenurik. 

 

"Saryn cant be used for all content". Im inclined to disagree. I suppose we could debate what constitutes "able to be used in all content" but i feel like if you can say that about saryn i could say the same about MFD builds. 

 

"Casual players die with her constantly". Okay? What kind of point does that prove? Casual players tend to die alot with *most* frames... because theyre casuals. 

Meanwhile i can just chill somewhere in a cloak arrow while spores do their thing. 

You seem to have an issue since you put it in your title thread and post. Unless I'm mistaken and someone typed that for you? 

If your issue was with M4D alone you would have just made another thread like everyone else about it being adjusted.

You want consistency that just happens to be in one area: you want more stuff to nuke simply because Saryn exists. I don't see you advocating for a weapon rework similar to the melee rework so more guns can be viable, for example. 

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

You seem to have an issue since you put it in your title thread and post. Unless I'm mistaken and someone typed that for you? 

If your issue was with M4D alone you would have just made another thread like everyone else about it being adjusted.

You want consistency that just happens to be in one area: you want more stuff to nuke simply because Saryn exists. I don't see you advocating for a weapon rework similar to the melee rework so more guns can be viable, for example. 

 

I see reading comprehension isnt your strong suit. At least not as much as snark.

You can relax now bro im not after your precious saryn mkay? I just dont see why it makes any logical sense to say MFD is so OP it had to practically be deleted from the game but saryn is fine. 

I happen to think there *should* be a weapon rework so more guns are viable considering how melee is. This thread wasnt about that though. But go ahead and throw a hissy fit and put words in my mouth anyway.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

57 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I understand perfectly fine why M4D had several changes done to it. Most of them were simply bug fixes, like mods double dipping, the ability somehow being able to crit aswell as benefitting from overkill damage. The only questionable change which wasnt a bug fix is the change to the damage, capping it at 75%, which I just dont understand why it was done in this same patch. They should have left it as a scaling-with-strength skill and monitored how it performed when the bugs are now fixed.

But I just dont get the people that complain over the obvious bugs getting fixed, since they werent intended mechanics of the skill to begin with. I do however fully support those complaining about the actual nerf i.e the 75% damage cap.

You know how it goes...giving power then taking it away via “Beta” moniker (It’s not a beta, just the legalese needed to make constant change as DE sees fit) will always produce some time of pain.

Chroma Multiplicative bug fix.

For me it was Volt Multiplicative Shield Stack bug fix back in the day.  (millions of damage 😢).

You are right about the 75%.

DE needs to be VERY careful about the perception that they are purposely releasing OP gear that ISN’T bugged to boost usage or plat/$ spending, knowing they will nerf it.

I’m not going to argue the truth behind it or not, because it’s perception that is important.  But when you have examples like Scarlet Spear in conjunction with Bramma...players will be convinced DE KNEW what the Bramma was when released to create demand and will feel manipulated upon nerfing it.

The only other argument I’ve seen (beyond “balance”) is that DE doesn’t playtest properly.  That’s not good perception either.

Fin

[(PSN)Silverback73]

41 minutes ago, taiiat said:

everything is always popularity. it's never not been.

 

we had one, then bad Players whined for 3 years that Saryn was 'useless' (between Saryn version 2015 and Saryn version 2018), and managed to get their way and get an AFKFarming Warframe. Abilities purpose designed for being AFK and doing as little as possible to hit par in Missions.

the Players aren't concerned with that Saryn is mathematically incapable of being efficient at Killing Enemies, because that's not what they're using those Abilities for. they're using them to get 'Mission Complete' with as much AFK'ing as possible.

 

a shame that Saryn 2015 had to die for such mundaneness. atleast Damage buff Augments can be self applied now. and the cat is out of the bag on giving Toxic Lashs' bonus to Guns instead of giving Guns a different also useful bonus.

but nobody cares about the death of some Abilities that were legitimately interesting to use and offered high power but one had to master the use of their Abilities to get it.
and nobody cares that it couldn't perform better because of arbitrary limitations + Bugs that shouldn't have been there in the first place, limitations of which made it harder for the Lowest Common Denominator to be able to use the Abilities and also limiting quite how much fun the top1% could have with them.

 

thanks for coming to my TED talk. even though nobody will read it or care.

I care.  Especially when they have zero use in conservation 😆

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Marked for death was the 8th most infused ability. The second least infused helminth ability after expedite suffering and less infused than roar. The helminth abilities being so far ahead (especially the first few you get) makes sense because you dont need to pay any subsume costs to unlock them with helminth companion being used to quickly level it. This wasnt even a case where something was used "too much". From the devstream we know that a part of the balance team is on vacation right now, so it seems really out of place to make such an impactful decision right now.

Yeah I was very confused by that. I didn't get Rebecca being like "the balance team in charge of this is away on vacation so bear with us it will be a week before we can look at it again". 

And I was like... okay, I get that is the situation now, so we will have to be patient, but why make a big nerf on a brand new ability either when the people in charge of that are on vacation, or right before they go on vacation. It... just seemed like a strange decision, I hope they consider a different process in the future. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I see reading comprehension isnt your strong suit. At least not as much as snark.

You can relax now bro im not after your precious saryn mkay? I just dont see why it makes any logical sense to say MFD is so OP it had to practically be deleted from the game but saryn is fine. 

I happen to think there *should* be a weapon rework so more guns are viable considering how melee is. This thread wasnt about that though. But go ahead and throw a hissy fit and put words in my mouth anyway.

You said you haven't touched M4D and don't care if it exists, yet claim it was nerfed so bad it practically might as well be deleted from the game....so how would you know this...? Since consistency is so important to you....

Because other people are saying it still performs well....

[(PSN)Glitschig]

I never infused MFD because I knew it would be nerfed. It's the same ole, same ole with DE.  They create interest which fuels their numbers and their income and then take it away.  You'd think we would learn and vote it down by not playing.  But we don't. 
 

The bottom line on this is they don't test their stuff before they turn it loose and it seems to be by design (insert your own conspiracy theory here). If a handful of content creators can consistently break anything they release in less than a week every single time something comes out, it illustrates that, either by design or utter incompetence, DE is not good at designing their released product.  And, of course, once the influential content creators put it out there, it is adopted widely by many players.  These days, I keep up with the content creators as a sign of interest in their knowledge of the game but I steer away from their good stuff because it's literally a warning of what to avoid. 
 

Saryn...sigh...I see both sides easily.  I think we all know the story here.  It comes down to a miscommunicated/interpreted gripe between the the pro and against sides.  For those who can't stand that she seems like the one and only OP nuke queen and ESO is her intimate domain (and it is), it's not that Saryn exists and people can't understand why she gets this holier than thou treatment, it's that it seems like NO other frame/weapon can ever seem to be allowed to exist in her universe.  Instead of saying "ok, Saryn can rule the ESO but Mirage with an underfed Brahma can rule here," it's NO!  We will nerf your Brahma.  We will nerf your atterax. We will nerf your stat sticks, your rivens, your arcanes. We will bring it all down before we will allow all people to have fun with a multitude of frames. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

You know how it goes...giving power then taking it away via “Beta” moniker (It’s not a beta, just the legalese needed to make constant change as DE sees fit) will always produce some time of pain.

Chroma Multiplicative bug fix.

For me it was Volt Multiplicative Shield Stack bug fix back in the day.  (millions of damage 😢).

You are right about the 75%.

DE needs to be VERY careful about the perception that they are purposely releasing OP gear that ISN’T bugged to boost usage or plat/$ spending, knowing they will nerf it.

I’m not going to argue the truth behind it or not, because it’s perception that is important.  But when you have examples like Scarlet Spear in conjunction with Bramma...players will be convinced DE KNEW what the Bramma was when released to create demand and will feel manipulated upon nerfing it.

The only other argument I’ve seen (beyond “balance”) is that DE doesn’t playtest properly.  That’s not good perception either.

Fin

The Bramma is still a great weapon. Maybe average players should learn to build their weapons properly. There were people saying the Bramma was OP with 0 forma.....forma and modding knowledge is what makes a weapon perform well, so why should someone be able to take a forma-less bramma and perform well?

Just because you got used to an outlier doesn't mean you get to feel cheated or make up conspiracy theories when its adjusted.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

The Bramma is still a great weapon. Maybe average players should learn to build their weapons properly. There were people saying the Bramma was OP with 0 forma.....forma and modding knowledge is what makes a weapon perform well, so why should someone be able to take a forma-less bramma and perform well?

Just because you got used to an outlier doesn't mean you get to feel cheated or make up conspiracy theories when its adjusted.

I never said it wasn’t.  You are proving my point. It is GREAT after said “nerf”.

I don’t feel cheated.  I’m not making up “conspiracy theories”.

We all know what the Bramma was able to do in missions pre-nerf, and it was an outlier on a level never-before-seen that was left that way for a while.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Okay so first off, i never put marked for death on a single warframe. I just dont get it. And i dont personally care if it exists or not. 

I just dont understand the logic behind it. Release it in a way that allows you to nuke enemies and then nerf it into the ground because it nukes enemies meanwhile saryn exists. 

I guess you could argue the interaction with arcane trickery was OP but... you can put cloak arrow on saryn, sit on it, and nuke all of creation until you run out of pizzas. Or better yet zenurik, which of course, you want run out of. I feel like it would have made more sense to reduce its range, cap the number of enemies it can affect, and change the interaction with trickery. Something like that. But whatever. 

At this point im concerned about the helminth system. It seems like DE is steadfastly opposed to making the "trash"* abilities worth using and removing things from the list of "good" abilities is just going to make the system less appealing to me overall.

Why do people make this ridiculous argument?

Saryn's spores-miasma tends to only work really well in relatively small maps with really rapid, constant, high density spawns. The instant you kill the last enemy with the spores it degrades to nothing super fast and you need to build it back up from scratch. There are maps in ESO which are just a pain to keep the spores going. 

MFD is a localised nuke that you can use anywhere that there's a cluster of enemies, and would wipe the floor with them each and every time. 

And they already did a rework on Saryn, when everyone knew that with that type of build she was only good at that one single, highly specific thing. 

Seriously it's like people just love to complain and compare, but don't know what they're even talking about. 

[ReddyDisco]

Title should be " Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn, mesa, equinox, khora exist"

 

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists

Good point! Nerf Saryn?

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

You know how it goes...giving power then taking it away via “Beta” moniker (It’s not a beta, just the legalese needed to make constant change as DE sees fit) will always produce some time of pain.

Chroma Multiplicative bug fix.

For me it was Volt Multiplicative Shield Stack bug fix back in the day.  (millions of damage 😢).

You are right about the 75%.

DE needs to be VERY careful about the perception that they are purposely releasing OP gear that ISN’T bugged to boost usage or plat/$ spending, knowing they will nerf it.

I’m not going to argue the truth behind it or not, because it’s perception that is important.  But when you have examples like Scarlet Spear in conjunction with Bramma...players will be convinced DE KNEW what the Bramma was when released to create demand and will feel manipulated upon nerfing it.

The only other argument I’ve seen (beyond “balance”) is that DE doesn’t playtest properly.  That’s not good perception either.

Fin

Bramma was more of a special case. It was balanced on release since it was balanced around a risk vs reward system. Then the risk was removed yet the reward stayed. Obviously it had to be toned down since it no longer involved the original risk that incentiviced the reward with it. So Bramma was in reality never nerfed, it was simply rebalanced for a new system that was never really in mind when the weapon was initially released.

Now if the self damage had stayed and Bramma had gotten the same adjustment it did I'd understand the people that complained. But with the removal of self damage the weapon was passively massively buffed. Hence why it went from low usage to being part of pretty much every kit. Prior to the removal of self damage it was used by a few that enjoyed the risk vs reward, or as a tool on Revenant. After the removal of self damage it was used with every single frame. 

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Kaotyke:

No, he is right. With the instruction manual, I can make a Macro that I can turn on and off, I just need to make so it imitate the mouse cursor going from Left to Right at a certian speed and I have the old Peacemaker, put a timer to use Subsumed Pull with the Augment, timer on using Shatter Shield and there you go, AFK.

Or I make one that has the mouse go a bit up, down, right, left and back again, should I put Mesa in a corner.

No, he's not. The only thing that your explanation here changes is that I don't have to ask if you know what "being AFK" means because "being AFK" is not the same thing as botting.

[Monolake]

DE is scared to nerf/rework things that actually need changes for the negative impact those things have on the game and players - all because of community throwing a tantrum over any nerfs while not noticing buffs and global changes like all mobs becoming weaker.

We've had threads lasting 100+ pages over Saryn but its all for nothing.

Then DE don't know how to add any gameplay and challenge for maximum overpowered players deleting everything on spawn. So they simply add boring waitwalls - welcome to Deimos.

[kgabor]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

Nerf Saryn?