I think it's very important to address the issue with Warframe abilities that require a useless melee weapon to function.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Atlas, khora and others suffer from this.

We need a seperate slot for them, i am tired of not having to use my melee weapon in missions because it's useless.

[TheGodofWiFi]

I remember when this was the case with all exalted weapons. Still amazes me DE can't seem to figure out that if a Warframe comes with a weapon built in, they always need separate slots.

Exalted weapons in general just kind of suck regardless.

[chaotea]

Maybe they should just stop having damaged based off melee, and just do base damage x (1+Enemy Level) like they do for other abilities.

And if that nerfs the ability, at least you can use a good melee weapon.

 

Also:

1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

i am tired of not having to use my melee weapon in missions because it's useless.

Maybe pick the one you want more?

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 hours ago, chaotea said:

Maybe pick the one you want more?

I would hate it even more.

Imagine getting your favourite melee weapon on missions only to fill it with useless mods not fit for it BUT IMPORTANT for your ability weapon

[chaotea]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I would hate it even more.

Imagine getting your favourite melee weapon on missions only to fill it with useless mods not fit for it BUT IMPORTANT for your ability weapon

Not what i meant. I meant, either fit your weapon for the ability, and use the ability alot or fit the weapon for the weapon and ignore the ability.

[PublikDomain]

For Khora, at least, this is a non-issue. It's user error. You don't need a Riven at all to hit 7-digit DPS, and if you are looking at Rivens then there are far better options than the Jaw Sword or Mire. You don't even need a particularly high Disposition weapon, I've ridden my poor Dual Keres all the way down from 1.44 to 1.1 and they're still more than capable weapons for both roles.

Making pseudo-Exalted abilities moddable means they'd be just like Exalted Weapons, and we've all seen how that goes. Exalted Weapons can't use Rivens, they can't use Acolyte mods, and they can't even keep up with regular weapons. Who would want another Iron Staff? And it's not like making pseudo-Exalted abilities moddable would get rid of stat-sticks, in fact it'd make them even worse. Since pseudo-Exalted abilities scale with the Combo Counter you still couldn't use a Heavy Attack build lest you consume your Combo Counter. And with mods no longer inheriting there'd be an incentive to turn your stat-stick into even more of a support weapon, crammed full of Combo Counter and Gladiator mods.

There's no good way to make pseudo-Exalted abilities moddable without side effects, whereas it's easy to make a stat-stick that works both ways.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I agree I don`t like stat sticks I'd rather have either increased damage or make them have the combo multiplier. It`s a shame this post had to come from a paskunyak סטאָקער.

[DoomFruit]

15 hours ago, chaotea said:

Not what i meant. I meant, either fit your weapon for the ability, and use the ability alot or fit the weapon for the weapon and ignore the ability.

Why should this even be a choice that needs to be made in the first place? What's wrong with making these abilities behave like any other #1 ability and have a set damage (whether base or percentage like Oberon) which has nothing to do with mods that aren't installed on it?

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Atlas, khora and others suffer from this.

We need a seperate slot for them, i am tired of not having to use my melee weapon in missions because it's useless.

Stat sticks shouldn’t exist, it’s invisible power. Abilities should scale with ability mods. If an ability is going to scale with other mods, it needs its own dedicated modding section.

Stat sticks are abhorrent.

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Why should this even be a choice that needs to be made in the first place? What's wrong with making these abilities behave like any other #1 ability and have a set damage (whether base or percentage like Oberon) which has nothing to do with mods that aren't installed on it?

Weirdly enough it used to be like that. Then they added the melee thing as a buff. So they could just revert it back to how it used to be, which would be at the same level as it is now if you dont equip a melee weapon.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

46 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Weirdly enough it used to be like that. Then they added the melee thing as a buff. So they could just revert it back to how it used to be, which would be at the same level as it is now if you dont equip a melee weapon.

Obviously they’ll need to increase the values for those abilities when it comes to scaling with strength.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

It`s a shame this post had to come from a paskunyak סטאָקער.

It's funny because i feel the same thing about you, Lol, keep up with this attitude, let's see where this will lead you

 

I mean, what did i ever do to you compared to the amount of insults you drenched me with back at your Warframe reworks post

[nslay]

It doesn't have to be a useless melee. I use Rakta Dark Dagger and sometimes Zenistar with Khora (toss a 2 minute disk in a spawn point in ESO)... but mostly the former since I can regenerate energy in emergencies (and also hide myself slightly).

If people want to use a melee solely for its high disposition (because it's garbage), that's their choice.

On the other hand... It'd be nice to be able to mod the melee differently than Whipclaw. Having to mod for Whipclaw makes the Zenistar's disk underperform for example.

[Raso719]

If you build your melee weapon to be useful as a melee weapon, I think these exalted weapons end up only dealing damage in the 100s of thousands and not in the millions, am I correct?

I totally agree that these weapons need to be separated from melee weapons. They need to be made their own thing in terms of modding. But we're seriously getting aggravated over the difference between killing anything in the game in one hit versus killing anything in the game with one hit but also the damage number are red and have more digits

 

[PublikDomain]

37 minutes ago, Raso719 said:

If you build your melee weapon to be useful as a melee weapon, I think these exalted weapons end up only dealing damage in the 100s of thousands and not in the millions, am I correct?

Depends on the frame. Since Khora can crit, you just build Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds and a bunch of damage like you'd do for any combo-based hybrid melee weapon. The only difference is not using Condition Overload, and the result is whether your 7-digit number starts with a 1 or a 2. That's it. You could use CO if you wanted to and not notice much of a practical difference, if any.

For Atlas you can do the "use a bunch of Impact mods" thing, which would definitely hinder a melee weapon... or you use the same build as Khora and make a crit Atlas. This gives you a good melee and a better Landslide. An appropriately-built crit Atlas can even out-DPS a Khora in the right conditions.

For Gara no one seems to really use her 1 as a weapon, instead they use it as a tool to combo her 2/4. You'd have to ask a Gara player, but I don't think there's much reason to care about building her stat-stick to your detriment when all it does is make building up your 2 faster. And she can build around Slash damage, so there should be plenty of good stat-stick candidates out there for her to use.

[Berzerkules]

I have a kind of Hybrid melee/whipclaw build for Khora that works pretty well. It's actually my favorite Khora build. 

I just drop the elemental mods and Gladiator might on stat stick for Condition Overload, Berserker and Primed Reach. It does fine as a stat stick and is a fully functioning melee. It's kind of weird running PPP and CO on the same build but it works in this situation. I do have a god tier cc/cd/dmg/-infested Dual Ether riven so that helps. 

I swapped Strangledome for Gara's Spectrosiphon. I don't need to mod for efficiency since I can ensnare>spectrosiphon and I pretty much always have full energy. Drop Arcane Fury for Arcane Eruption for some CC every time I cast an ability and pick up an orb. I have room for accumulating whipclaw for whip damage, Venari Bodyguard as a cheat death ability and spectrosiphon near endless energy. It's an active build that's not the campy wall whipping frame that everybody thinks she is. 

Khora is strong enough that you don't need to min/max her stat stick to make her viable. What you see as an issue that needs to be fixed I see as an opportunity to make weird off meta endurance builds.  

[nooneyouknow13]

On 2020-12-02 at 2:48 PM, PublikDomain said:

Depends on the frame. Since Khora can crit, you just build Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds and a bunch of damage like you'd do for any combo-based hybrid melee weapon. The only difference is not using Condition Overload, and the result is whether your 7-digit number starts with a 1 or a 2. That's it. You could use CO if you wanted to and not notice much of a practical difference, if any.

For Atlas you can do the "use a bunch of Impact mods" thing, which would definitely hinder a melee weapon... or you use the same build as Khora and make a crit Atlas. This gives you a good melee and a better Landslide. An appropriately-built crit Atlas can even out-DPS a Khora in the right conditions.

For Gara no one seems to really use her 1 as a weapon, instead they use it as a tool to combo her 2/4. You'd have to ask a Gara player, but I don't think there's much reason to care about building her stat-stick to your detriment when all it does is make building up your 2 faster. And she can build around Slash damage, so there should be plenty of good stat-stick candidates out there for her to use.

For Khora and Atlas, it's not just CO you have to avoid, but attack speed and range mods as well.

 

The same is true for Gara, but the damage of her 1 affects the damage of the 4>1 combo. So yes, you're still forced to go all out on a stat stick, and this time the stat stick can't include crit, status, or attack speed. Excalibur's Slash Dash has the same issue. Slash Dash pulls mods off the melee, with 0% crit and status, or off EB's mods if EB is active.

Stat sticks need to die. Even if directly modding the skills comes at the cost of rivens, stat sticks are un-intuitive design.

[BasKy]

I just don't understand. DE knows this is a problem that limits build diversity and implemented separate slots for many abilities. Why are there still some that are dependent on weapon mods?

En 1/12/2020 a las 19:37, PublikDomain dijo:

Making pseudo-Exalted abilities moddable means they'd be just like Exalted Weapons, and we've all seen how that goes. Exalted Weapons can't use Rivens, they can't use Acolyte mods, and they can't even keep up with regular weapons.

So Exalted Weapons are underperforming and yet they can't be equiped with all mods? I feel like you are using something that needs fixing as an argument since you agree they are weaker than their counterpart. Unless normal melee weapons are too OP in wich case should have the same treatment Exalteds have, that being the removal of acolytes and Riven mods for melee.

My point is it doesn't make sense that we can equip those mods on the most broken weapon class availabe, but suddenly they are too strong for Atlas Landslide.

En 1/12/2020 a las 19:37, PublikDomain dijo:

And it's not like making pseudo-Exalted abilities moddable would get rid of stat-sticks, in fact it'd make them even worse. Since pseudo-Exalted abilities scale with the Combo Counter you still couldn't use a Heavy Attack build lest you consume your Combo Counter. And with mods no longer inheriting there'd be an incentive to turn your stat-stick into even more of a support weapon, crammed full of Combo Counter and Gladiator mods.

I don't follow. Having a support weapon is not the problem (that's a decision), the problem is when your support weapon supports by merely existing in your sheath without seeing the day of light because it's useless

[XaoGarrent]

On 2020-12-01 at 9:51 AM, chaotea said:

And if that nerfs the ability, at least you can use a good melee weapon.

No, at that point you just end up using another frame.

...RIP exalted focus Wukong, it was fun while it lasted.

Right now Exalted melee is some of the worst melee in the game, and most of the frames that rely on it have fallen down tiers.

Modding restrictions need to go away, and a lot of things need to change about the pseudo exalted abilities before they can get their own modding. I feel like nobody here has tried to play Khora without a busted riven and a whip focused build. Stat her like you would any other strong frame in the game, and her 1 is actually kinda garbage.

It's why I don't play her: I don't like the build. Butchering that build wont make Khora more flexible, or better in any way though, it'll just relegate her to the dustbin. Why use Khora when I could use a Glaive on a frame with better abilities?

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

For Khora and Atlas, it's not just CO you have to avoid, but attack speed and range mods as well.

That's why you pick a good stat-stick. There are plenty of good melee weapons to choose from, and with Zaws you can make your own tailored to your preferences. Though you're right about Range, but hey that's why you've got that pseudo-Exalted ability! If an enemy is too far, whip them or punch them.

19 minutes ago, BasKy said:

So Exalted Weapons are underperforming and yet they can't be equiped with all mods? I feel like you are using something that needs fixing as an argument since you agree they are weaker than their counterpart.

They're weaker and it's obvious that they should be fixed, but despite that they haven't been. It's been years and DE has shown no interest in fixing up Exalted weapons. Asking for pseudo-Exalted abilities to be made independently moddable is only asking them to be made weak too. If you guys were asking for an upgrade I'd be all for it, but the model y'all want to base them on is a downgrade.

24 minutes ago, BasKy said:

Having a support weapon is not the problem (that's a decision), the problem is when your support weapon supports by merely existing in your sheath without seeing the day of light because it's useless

And having a crappy stat-stick and/or build you don't use as a real weapon is also a decision. If you want to use your melee - at least with Khora or Atlas - then use it. Khora and Crit Atlas can use basically the same stat-stick build. Like, it's a Blood Rush build. What's useless about that? I make plenty of use of mine, so there's no reason you can't do it too.

If you want to have your cake and eat it too then you're not going to be happy with the results. In an effort to gain power on your melee weapon you're going to lose power on your pseudo-Exalted, except it's not just going to affect you, it's gonna affect to all of us. If you want a weaker pseudo-Exalted and a stronger melee, then just use your meta melee weapon and make that change yourself. You'll lose some power on your abilities, sure, but that's exactly what you're asking for.

[CatNV]

Agreed, pseudo-exalted is a plague.

[Lone_Dude]

Rivens.

[Xepthrichros]

And make Nezha's chakram either 1) exalted or 2) like Garuda's talons

[BasKy]

hace 14 horas, PublikDomain dijo:

That's why you pick a good stat-stick. There are plenty of good melee weapons to choose from, and with Zaws you can make your own tailored to your preferences. Though you're right about Range, but hey that's why you've got that pseudo-Exalted ability! If an enemy is too far, whip them or punch them.

They're weaker and it's obvious that they should be fixed, but despite that they haven't been. It's been years and DE has shown no interest in fixing up Exalted weapons. Asking for pseudo-Exalted abilities to be made independently moddable is only asking them to be made weak too. If you guys were asking for an upgrade I'd be all for it, but the model y'all want to base them on is a downgrade.

And having a crappy stat-stick and/or build you don't use as a real weapon is also a decision. If you want to use your melee - at least with Khora or Atlas - then use it. Khora and Crit Atlas can use basically the same stat-stick build. Like, it's a Blood Rush build. What's useless about that? I make plenty of use of mine, so there's no reason you can't do it too.

If you want to have your cake and eat it too then you're not going to be happy with the results. In an effort to gain power on your melee weapon you're going to lose power on your pseudo-Exalted, except it's not just going to affect you, it's gonna affect to all of us. If you want a weaker pseudo-Exalted and a stronger melee, then just use your meta melee weapon and make that change yourself. You'll lose some power on your abilities, sure, but that's exactly what you're asking for.

No, no one is asking to make them weaker. Having them separately modded doesn't mean they need to have the same limitations as Exalted Weapons, that's your assumption. I know I'm repeating myself but there's no reason why you can have those mods on the most broken weapon class available and not on Atlas' Landslide, so if that's the main argument, simply remove that limitation.

Also I don't want a blood rush on my melee, I want range and to apply status.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, BasKy said:

No, no one is asking to make them weaker.

You are, because Exalted weapons can't use Rivens. That alone is cutting half to two-thirds of the damage, at least for Khora. I'd stand to lose a little more than half.

3 hours ago, BasKy said:

Also I don't want a blood rush on my melee, I want range and to apply status.

Then swap a mod for Primed Reach. Heck, swap another for Berserker. I could drop a 90% Elemental and Gladiator Might for Primed Reach and Berserker and still be ahead of where I'd be with the loss of Rivens.