Resolving the Ranged vs Melee Power Gap

[DrivaMain]

Steel Path was a mistake.

They should just let it only have a +100 enemy level modifier and no BS enemy stat buff.

[ShogunGunshow]

Mobs that are specialized into shutting down particular styles of play are a potential solution, like the above mentioned shield unit that could have extreme resistance to melee and can counter players, knocking them on their butt and subjecting them to an increased damage taken multiplier for several seconds. You can avoid it, but you have to roll at the right time (maybe accompanied by a visual cue like a red flash from their eyes/pulse around their bodies). Best way of taking them out would be shooting a weak point, something requiring precision, which most melee weapons aren't good at, etc.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

This melee thing literally wasn't an issue until that video came out. Do you know how many times the same video has been posted as some sort of "Hurrr, see look wat da tube man say" moment? 

It's really nothing new, and it was expected: 

Enemy EHP was nerfed, they tried to completely dismantle eidolons by letting Xaku give everyone void damage to one shot a Hydrolyst, they want acolytes nerfed and Steel path nerfed and the list goes on.

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

56 minutes ago, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

So as they talk about it in the dev stream, what do we think about this? 

For the past year I've been thinking about this, and I usually end up coming to guns having their own combo system. This would mean some functionality would improve as players land successful shots, as well as allowing *new* combo scaling mods to kick in as the combo rises. I think it would need to be a different scaling than 1 hit = 1 combo, as that would differentially prefer rapid fire and high multishot weapons, while slower RoF weapons would get left behind. 

 

What would you do to resolve the gap? Do you believe there's a gap, or is that merely perception since you've got guns that kill as effectively as melee in Steel Path and other high-level content? 

In my opinion, I feel that the fact you can swing your melee weapons while moving through enemies compared to how other melee games handle melee combos has some blame for the overpowered situation. Additionally, it might help by adding depth to the system with parrying, counters, a better combo system and adding enemies that won't go down if you just mash melee. Enemies that require more mechanical skill instead of mashing melee or abilities or just spraying bullets without much thought might add more depth to the gameplay.

[vegetosayajin]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

They were talking about making melee slower and if it's bad I'll just stop playing. I enjoy the fast paced game play that melee provides. Without that I have no reason to play anymore. 

I'm all for making primary/secondary more powerful but if melee suffers I want no part of it. 

idd
If it's really a balance I'm all for it. I love melee more, but I also want to break the cycle with some gun play from time to time.
We will see.

  

1 minute ago, (XBOX)WafflyLearner89 said:

In my opinion, I feel that the fact you can swing your melee weapons while moving through enemies compared to how other melee games handle melee combos has some blame for the overpowered situation. Additionally, it might help by adding depth to the system with parrying, counters, a better combo system and adding enemies that won't go down if you just mash melee. Enemies that require more mechanical skill instead of mashing melee or abilities or just spraying bullets without much thought might add more depth to the gameplay.

There was systems like this before, it was complete fail.
You have to consider also the horde aspect of wf.
Whatever they do you have to be able to spray down 30-50 enemies of any level in seconds for certain game modes to be even playable.
This is the only reason melee is powerful rn, because in the context of this game it's the only viable tool to do the job that is given from the mission design.

[ICA-970326-47]

I don't think slow down melee will do anything.

At this current stage, most players who has the attitude to min max everything only put 1 attack speed mod in their melee build, sometimes even no attack speed mod and outsource that problem to arcane or warframe ability. So that they have the mod slots to put on both Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds and Organ Shatter.

Which means, slowing down melee attack speed won't change any of the current meta but only taking away the fun for players who prefer fast attacks at cost of some damage potential. I know a friend who spent 2600 plat searching for a Nikana Riven (0.55 dispo by the way) just so that he does not need to relies on Berserker and has ~0.2 faster attack speed. For players who invested and prefer fast pace melee combat, their choice will be taken away and there is a high possibility they will quit. As the gameplay is less enjoyable for them.

A preferred attack speed plays a critical role in how much "fun" the player can have from melee game play. Sometimes just a bit faster or a bit slower can change everything. You can fine situations where being too fast make your hard to execute combos (polearms & staffs, mostly). And situation where you just desperately hope you can attack a bit faster.

The players should have the right to choose how fast they want their melee weapon to attack. Isn't that what Mod system suppose to do? We have a range of melee attack speed mods providing buffs from 30% to 75%, how hard can it be to find one you like? If you don't want to have visual seizure every time your melee weapon attack, then just mod for slower speed or perhaps darker energy color.

In conclusion, nerf attack speed is not going to do anything useful. It would only take away some players' fun and make them rage quit, while other nearly unaffected.

New players? New players are interested in cool stuff and content, if they got into the game after the nerf. They will not experience the change and expect it as normal. They won't be affected so much.

It's understandable to nerf melee's damage, even by nerf Condition Overload. As it's arguably necessary to bring guns' performance up to the same level of melee, given the nature of this game is a horde shooter which you are faced by multiple enemies all the time. However, nerf melee attack speed impact the game play much much bigger than just less damage. Melee is such an icon in warframe, even shown heavily in the advertisement. Please consider carefully before the nerf.

Guns are fun, I love guns and enjoy head hunting but not just mindlessly spam explosive weapons. I even did Saryn solo Steel Path survival 90mins mainly using Cernos Prime actively looking for headshots. What they lack is the scaling system like Melee combo has.

So, why don't simply add a scaling system to guns just like melee? We already have Sniper Combo Multiplier, a similar system with some tweaks could make many guns perform much better if used carefully. And mods could be developed around the combo system to further shape the gun meta. For example, fast firing automatic rifle need confirmed kill or hit weak spot in order to increase the combo number.

[(PSN)Rebel-sonie]

I just ran a mission holding nothing but R2 and tilting the analog stick forward. Guess that needs a nerf?

Maybe I should make a video about it. 

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

5 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

idd
If it's really a balance I'm all for it. I love melee more, but I also want to break the cycle with some gun play from time to time.
We will see.

  

There was systems like this before, it was complete fail.
You have to consider also the horde aspect of wf.
Whatever they do you have to be able to spray down 30-50 enemies of any level in seconds for certain game modes to be even playable.
This is the only reason melee is powerful rn, because in the context of this game it's the only viable tool to do the job that is given from the mission design.

I think I get what you are saying, but problems like the ones Warframe is currently dealing with are not ones with simple solutions. A piece of the problem stems from the fact that the difficulty in majority of Warframe comes from enemies being health sponges with an insane amount of damage output (sometimes). If enemies had more difficulty through mechanical systems such as being able to block melee attacks but having weak spots to ranged weapons or being untouchable with guns but can be taken down with melee, as extreme examples, that right there could help a bit with making sure players can't rely on melee or guns by themselves. 

Going deeper down the rabbit hole, what if we had enemies that have move sets with deadly attacks, but are telegraphed to give the player a chance to evade or shut the attack down, giant tank enemies that are armed with a rail gun or machine gun, assassins that are quick and need to be countered with melee attacks. Or how about more detailed boss battles seen in DMC5, Dark Souls, Spider-Man ps4, Metal Gear Rising, Borderlands and other critically acclaimed games with epic boss fights? I have more examples, but I think I got the basics down for my thinking.

However, doing that results in having to look into adding more depth to the melee system, the guns, abilities and more; which ends up with the core loop needing a revision.

 

If we want to fix the current problems that have been brought up lately, we need to go down real deep into the systems of Warframe to get them addressed.

 

If anything I said confuses you, let me know what is not clear so I can try clarifying my thought process. I tend to not make my points very clear.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The developers have an obligation to appease their customers. Even the bad ones.

And of course, you are the mighty judge who decides who's good and who's bad, right?

Trying to paint YouTubers as the boogeymen and the scapegoat for all evil doesn't serve you well either, as the issue of melee, first of all is a legitimate balance concern, and secondly was talked about on the forums well before Shy's video. 

Also, by now the only confirmed "nerfs" are a reduction in attack speed escalation, which also prevents you from absolutely breaking animations into an incoherent jumble of limbs, a reduction of melee induced staggers, and a buff to gun mechanics. Were exactly in all this is "having the bar lowered"? If anything, it makes the most boring playstyle a bit harder to pull off, which is hardly "lowering the bar". You are vastly overreacting to a small step into the right direction and proceed to talk about completely unrelated stuff to divert attention from your lack of substantial arguments against this decision.

But I'll gladly enjoy the supermassive black hole mass equivalent of salt and tears flowing around here. 

[ShogunGunshow]

I must admit I'm bemused by the assertion that people wanting something overpowered nerfed are 'casuals.' That it's bad because 'casuals' want it so that you have to do more than hit E to win Steel Path, because a 'casual' ... wants more complexity and options/depth?

What does a 'casual' mean to the people saying this? Someone that just doesn't have Blood Rush/Condition Overload yet?

[p_silveira]

1 hour ago, DudeeDew said:

Nobody asked for them, ever.

I did, and many others too. Warframe is basically a Dinasty Warriors reskin right now, player damage has to go way down, otherwise we get stuck with ridiculous DPS-based damage reduction (enemy necramechs have this), enemies with invulnerability phases, and other shenanigans, so that the players don't one shot every boss in the game with a gazillion-damage weapon every 3 seconds.

[_junguler]

they have to do a complete pass on all the weapons and bring them up to melee's level, just nerfing isn't the way.

[TeaHands]

Interested to see what happens, if the nerf is bad they will definitely see and hear the backlash from the community and youtubers and will act accordingly. Sounds like they have some ideas that aren't just "Slap on more base damage or crit chance" and hopefully it brings more variety to the late game. But we will see. All we can do is wait and hope youtubers don't cause enough panic to nerf any changes before we get to actually try it out.

[Berzerkules]

Just now, vegetosayajin said:

idd
If it's really a balance I'm all for it. I love melee more, but I also want to break the cycle with some gun play from time to time.
We will see.

If it slows down my game play I'll always hate it. I love fast paced game play, that's the main reason I play WF. Some overall balance would be great for the game and It would be awesome for people that prefer gunplay to have some viable options but, what does melee attack speed have to do with balancing guns?

With stupid fast melee you can close distances quicker with slide attacks or certain combos on specific stances. It's not a direct nerf to mobility but if it's noticeable, it might be enough to ruin it for me. 

I've quit other games when they limited my mobility. I walked away from Diablo 3 when Blizz added charges to the monks dash skill. A single change to one ability was enough to make me walk. I had 4k+ hours and was in top ranked clan that focused on leaderboards. We had to maintain top 50 with at least one class solo greater rifts and top 100 4 man at the end of each season or we got kicked. I was top 10 Monk in solo greater rifts a few seasons and at least top 50 4 man. I had a great community of like minded try hards to play with, time and money invested but, it didn't matter. It just wasn't the same game for me anymore, I couldn't play the way I had come to enjoy after all those hours. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

40 minutes ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

And of course, you are the mighty judge who decides who's good and who's bad, right?

Coming from the guy who immediately tries to shut down any discussion about challenge ever, this is quite ironical. Trying to paint YouTubers as the boogeymen and the scapegoat for all evil doesn't serve you well either, as the issue of melee, first of all is a legitimate balance concern, and secondly was talked about on the forums well before Shy's video. 

Also, by now the only confirmed "nerfs" are a reduction in attack speed escalation, which also prevents you from absolutely breaking animations into an incoherent jumble of limbs, a reduction of melee induced staggers, and a buff to gun mechanics. Were exactly in all this is "having the bar lowered"? If anything, it makes the most braindead playstyle a bit harder to pull off, which is hardly "lowering the bar". You are vastly overreacting to a small step into the right direction and proceed to talk about completely unrelated stuff to divert attention from your lack of substantial arguments against this decision.

But I'll gladly enjoy the supermassive black hole mass equivalent of salt and tears flowing around here. 

I was one of many asking for Steel path because star chart spawns are thin and weak, and all I wanted to do was not wait hours to fight high level enemies. 

I explained in great detail why warframes shouldn't damage eidolons shields.....why would I shut down conversations on challenge? You're confused....I challenge people that offer nerfs as if it's some solution to all the games problems.

Who was it that got railjack enemies nerfed? Who got enemy EHP nerfed? Why are there people still trying to nerf acolytes? Why are there still people in recruit chat asking for help killing their lich? 

Why were people showing concern within the dev stream about if they were "dumbing down" railjack? 

As I've said multiple times: bad players will always be bad, and good players will always be good, outshining bad players and basically making anything look OP no matter what it is. I'm on board with whatever the game does, but just know people will always be out there making sub-par players look bad. When someone literally says they shouldn't have to put more than 2 forma in a weapon, or that they don't want to bother changing the elements on their weapon based on the faction they're fighting, that is a player issue completely separate from anything the game is doing. 

I want a weapon buff, all it's going to do is make more of a playground for min maxers. You're playing a ninja game, and even the people on the dev stream said melee is the bread and butter and that they wouldn't want to step too hard on that. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I must admit I'm bemused by the assertion that people wanting something overpowered nerfed are 'casuals.' That it's bad because 'casuals' want it so that you have to do more than hit E to win Steel Path, because a 'casual' ... wants more complexity and options/depth?

What does a 'casual' mean to the people saying this? Someone that just doesn't have Blood Rush/Condition Overload yet?

Casuals are people that say "I shouldn't have to read a wiki", then say "bladestorm is too slow" and aren't aware that attack speed (except berserker) affects bladestorm speed. Casuals are people that say "all you do with Octavia is crouch" and think the roller ball should just kill everything, and just follow what they're told to do from a video, and disregard that Octavia has great weapon buffs. 

Casuals are people that say "omg weapons are so bad it took me 20min to kill a Steel path boss", then post their build and it's absolutely terrible and their post just turns into giving them advice on how to build. 

Need anymore examples? 

[ShogunGunshow]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Casuals are people that say "I shouldn't have to read a wiki", then say "bladestorm is too slow" and aren't aware that attack speed (except berserker) affects bladestorm speed. Casuals are people that say "all you do with Octavia is crouch" and think the roller ball should just kill everything, and just follow what they're told to do from a video, and disregard that Octavia has great weapon buffs. 

Casuals are people that say "omg weapons are so bad it took me 20min to kill a Steel path boss", then post their build and it's absolutely terrible and their post just turns into giving them advice on how to build. 

Need anymore examples? 

I mean, people that were fine with melee being nerfed are people that engage with the game at the highest levels of play, that regularly do Steel Path, that find that having melee as the go-to option for every type of content leads to things being stale, that think that creating a system where guns are starting to be evaluated primarily for their ability to be status primers for their melee is kind of messed up and indicative of deep systemic issues in scaling ... Those people? Aren't that crowd you just described.

Yet they're being called casual. Casual because they want you to have to do MORE than spam E.

Sounds to me like people just want a lazy epithet to justify their anger over the fact that they might eventually do fractionally less DPS than before.

[Nezha_Rose]

People keep mentioning a youtuber, who is it? Id like to get a bit more info here and see his take with a bit more detail so I can be better informed.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

43 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I mean, people that were fine with melee being nerfed are people that engage with the game at the highest levels of play, that regularly do Steel Path, that find that having melee as the go-to option for every type of content leads to things being stale, that think that creating a system where guns are starting to be evaluated primarily for their ability to be status primers for their melee is kind of messed up and indicative of deep systemic issues in scaling ... Those people? Aren't that crowd you just described.

Yet they're being called casual. Casual because they want you to have to do MORE than spam E.

Sounds to me like people just want a lazy epithet to justify their anger over the fact that they might eventually do fractionally less DPS than before.

Ok? It's not a black and white polarized view.....there are also people that engage with the game at the highest levels of play that want rivens removed from the game, and some that want riven stat locking....

There are people that engage with the game at the highest levels of play and didn't want khora adjusted, and some that do.....

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

-snip-

First of all, i am happy that finally DE is addressing this stupidly broken melee powercreep.

You have no idea how boring it is to one shot high level armored enemies only with one swing and no need for 12x combo.

Second, don't be that toxic towards players who actually want balance in the game.

You're mad because all you want is more power without any limits, this is not going to be a game anymore if everything is made of cheat codes

[Krankbert]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Nezha_Rose:

People keep mentioning a youtuber, who is it? Id like to get a bit more info here and see his take with a bit more detail so I can be better informed.

Does it really matter? Get informed about the issue you're discussing, not the meme that people use to shut down the discussion.

[Yamazuki]

2 hours ago, p_silveira said:

I did, and many others too. Warframe is basically a Dinasty Warriors reskin right now, player damage has to go way down, otherwise we get stuck with ridiculous DPS-based damage reduction (enemy necramechs have this), enemies with invulnerability phases, and other shenanigans, so that the players don't one shot every boss in the game with a gazillion-damage weapon every 3 seconds.

How does increasing gun damage make our damage go down? Then there's the issue that lowering melee damage doesn't make DE not use phases or high DR. Those exist even on enemies that couldn't be killed by just any melee weapon. Are people really forgetting burst guns can 1 shot phases/bosses? It gets worse when you consider buffs and the fact a group fits 4 players.

There's even enemies that have to be immune to abilities, or they get instantly killed by abilities, even the enemy necramechs were capable of being instantly killed by abilities initially.

[Surbusken]

What fun is being added to the game, with the nerfs?

Someone needs to like phone in a Goodyear blimp commercial and hoover it outside their office windows with giant letters reading "ADD FUN".

If they can't come up with any good ideas or gameplay concepts for ranged weapons... ask the players. Or copy other games.

But the first, second, third, fourth and fith questions have to be, what is fun about it.

 

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Surbusken:

If they can't come up with any good ideas or gameplay concepts for ranged weapons...

At least this time it's easy to tell who thought about his opinion and who is just reflexively opposing any and all nerfs without any thought whatsoever entering the process.

[Surbusken]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

At least this time it's easy to tell who thought about his opinion and who is just reflexively opposing any and all nerfs without any thought whatsoever entering the process.

I beg to differ.

Simply editing some numbers in notepad is literally the least amount of work and least amount of thought you can put into your video game.

What the developers should have done, 10 years ago, was just like you said, reflect on the intent, concept, design, direction and goals.

Anyone here could write a doctorate in bad game design by now lol, but what is the point when they ignore the players anyway?

It's their job, their responsibility and their problem.

I laugh everytime I see a "suggestions" post, like the poor sob thinks they will even read it