Remove “cold steel” from nightwave

[(NSW)Gamma83]

i prefer this challenge rather than the fortuna perfect capture one which i NEVER do.
 

[Steel_Rook]

11 hours ago, EugeneDebs said:

I think for a lot of people frustrated by this challenge (like me) it's that it's hard to find useful advice on how to get through it. There has been some legitimately helpful stuff in this thread (like jumping on an infested alert), but a lot of the time it's "Hey go to this node you don't have access to, it's easy". Seems to me most people frustrated with this have either a) previously given up/not touched Steel Path b) just unlocked it and the early Grineer nodes appear to be harder than higher level infested nodes? It's not very intuitive. I avoided the alerts because I figured if I was having this much trouble with level 100-103 enemies, 130+ would be even more of a pain in the ass.

Yup - that's where I am. I knew from the word GO that Steel Path wasn't being designed for me. I was never one of the people complaining that the game is "too easy" or doing two-hour Survival or anything of the sort. I happen to think that Warframe right now works best in the level 80 range or thereabout. DE themselves were pretty upfront that they knew this was going to be a niche game mode for a niche audience - it's why they didn't gate a wealth of exclusive high-value rewards behind it. So number of people - myself included - tried Steel Path, found it to be not something we enjoy and went back to the Vanilla game. As a result, I don't have access to a majority of Steel Path nodes... Because I'm not going to spend hours and hours doing something I don't like just so I can do more of it more easily.

I was lucky this time around, in that you guys warned me about the Salacia Alert. That's pretty much the only Steel Path node I actually need moving forward. So fine - I found a way to cheese that game mode. But the fundamental issue remains - Nightwave's attempt to push everyone to play everything is dead on arrival. Ain't nobody likes EVERYTHING in Warframe. By trying to push all the players into all the things, you're almost guaranteed to push everyone into something they don't like eventually. This is why the "endurance run" Challenges got replaced by much easier ones. It's also why I expect the Steel Path challenge to be made easier as well - likely by reducing the number of kills needed.

[Kaggelos]

On 2021-03-01 at 5:06 PM, Artekkor said:

Problem 2) Whole goddamn 1000 of them?!

Sounds like an absolute win to me! The more the merrier!

[Kaggelos]

being able to kill 1000 of them is a godsend for me. I love survival in sp, and this gives me the chance to wreck alot of enemies :-D

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

Sounds like an absolute win to me! The more the merrier!

Heh, sounds like approximately five to six minutes of play on an Infested Survival with Octavia, if effort and time is something that really bothers people...

[Venus-Venera]

you don't need any special warframe skills ...
anyone can achieve it super fast with heaps of status procs from common weapons and mele with "Condition Overload" ...

therefore a clear NO

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

funy cuse i did that task in less than 5 mins

[ES-Flinter]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb ShiruBiru:

funy cuse i did that task in less than 5 mins

1000 kills in less than 5min!? That would be around 3,4 kills& enemy spawns per second. Is that even possible with the current spawn rate?

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

1000 kills in less than 5min!? That would be around 3,4 kills& enemy spawns per second. Is that even possible with the current spawn rate?

Yes. Infested maps, for example, and if you hit a good room with plenty of nearby spawn locations. Steel Path sets all missions to maximum spawn rate as part of its 'difficulty' curve.

5-6 minutes is completely possible, and depending on the Warframe, it's completely easy.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Birdframe_Prime:

Yes. Infested maps, for example, and if you hit a good room with plenty of nearby spawn locations. Steel Path sets all missions to maximum spawn rate as part of its 'difficulty' curve.

5-6 minutes is completely possible, and depending on the Warframe, it's completely easy.

Thanks, I didn't expected that the enemy spawn in infested map rate is high enough to do it in 5min.^^

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Thanks, I didn't expected that the enemy spawn in infested map rate is high enough to do it in 5min.^^

If you want pure easy mode, grab Octavia and watch the enemies kill themselves on Mallet for a bit. I even went into that mission without Octavia fully levelled or modded (I was a second or third Forma in), just to see if it could be as easy as that. Turns out it was ^^

[Leqesai]

On 2021-03-01 at 6:35 AM, chaotea said:

Actually, only armor and sheilds are increased beyond the level issue. So go kill some infested in an endless mission. Take a Xaku with 200% power strength and you dont even need to fire a shot.

Thank you for saying this. People don't really seem to understand that Grineer are really the only type in the game that actually benefits from level scaling. Corpus and Infested are inherently the same from level 1 to level 9999. They do not have scaling damage reduction nor do they have a scaling damage reduction health type (armor) that invalidates all but 100% reduction of that value.

This challenge is brain-dead easy against the infested. 

[-AncientWarrior-]

Kill 1000 Sp enemies = hmm about 10-20 mins work depending on frame,  took me all of 11 minutes solo with my Khora Gal .. not really a big task 

[chaotea]

13 hours ago, Leqesai said:

They do not have scaling damage reduction nor do they have a scaling damage reduction health type (armor) that invalidates all but 100% reduction of that value.

Actually not entirely true. The bonuses are +150% Health, armor and sheilds. So while corpus havnt got armour, they are sitting at a 300% increase in overall survivability. Then again taking poison weapons effectivly cuts half that durability out, or magnetic procs.

[Celetille]

Did it in 5 minutes using Octavia in an infested survival.

[nslay]

On 2021-03-04 at 10:32 PM, EugeneDebs said:

I think for a lot of people frustrated by this challenge (like me) it's that it's hard to find useful advice on how to get through it. There has been some legitimately helpful stuff in this thread (like jumping on an infested alert), but a lot of the time it's "Hey go to this node you don't have access to, it's easy". Seems to me most people frustrated with this have either a) previously given up/not touched Steel Path b) just unlocked it and the early Grineer nodes appear to be harder than higher level infested nodes? It's not very intuitive. I avoided the alerts because I figured if I was having this much trouble with level 100-103 enemies, 130+ would be even more of a pain in the ass.

I'm always happy to give someone access to any SP node. Just PM me or message me in game.

SP Infested may be easier to kill, but they can also kill you too! Get harpooned by two Ancients or run into a Mutalist Osprey Gas Cloud and you won't be having a good time on many frames.

[YantaForce]

I completed the challenge in 6 minutes in Taveuni with Nidus and Glaive Prime without moving form the starting room. It was a fun challenge IMO.

[Leqesai]

10 hours ago, chaotea said:

Actually not entirely true. The bonuses are +150% Health, armor and sheilds. So while corpus havnt got armour, they are sitting at a 300% increase in overall survivability. Then again taking poison weapons effectivly cuts half that durability out, or magnetic procs.

Health has no damage reduction scaling...

I was saying the issues with grineer are that, in addition to the larger health pool they also have armor which further reduces damage as it scales, as well as reducing the effectiveness of non 100% armor strip due to diminishing returns on the armor value.

Also, corpus shields also have no damage reduction scaling.

[DoomFruit]

On 2021-03-07 at 9:12 PM, Leqesai said:

Thank you for saying this. People don't really seem to understand that Grineer are really the only type in the game that actually benefits from level scaling. Corpus and Infested are inherently the same from level 1 to level 9999. They do not have scaling damage reduction nor do they have a scaling damage reduction health type (armor) that invalidates all but 100% reduction of that value.

This challenge is brain-dead easy against the infested. 

Corpus and Infested do benefit - the problem is that Grineer benefit too much. DE completely failed at doing anything here when they changed level scaling. The way it should have been is armour which doesn't scale, with health, shields and weapon damage scaling. That way a fight between a L5 corpus and L5 grineer would go exactly the same way as a fight between L500 corpus and L500 grineer.

There's so much that could be said here, but each and every single bit of it boils down to "why the hell does armour scale in the first place?"

 

[chaotea]

13 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Health has no damage reduction scaling...

I was saying the issues with grineer are that, in addition to the larger health pool they also have armor which further reduces damage as it scales, as well as reducing the effectiveness of non 100% armor strip due to diminishing returns on the armor value.

Also, corpus shields also have no damage reduction scaling.

Its true that they dont have damage reduction scaling, but remember that the higher the armor value the less steep the damage reduction is. So a +150% armor value increase doesnt nessisaraly transfer to a +150% damage reduction. While sheilds and health dont add any specific damage reduction, they do add flat values in eccess of the health buffed bu armour.

Either way though, it means that infested are way easier than either corpus or grineer, as they dont have armour or sheilds. Where the others see a 300% increase in stats, Infested noly see a 150% increase. Effectivly making them twice as easy to kill.

[OmegaVoid]

18 hours ago, chaotea said:

infested are way easier than either corpus or grineer, as they dont have armour or sheilds. Where the others see a 300% increase in stats, Infested noly see a 150% increase. Effectivly making them twice as easy to kill.

Eh, no. Give a 150% increase to Health & Shields of the following: 

• a Corpus with 100 Health & 100 Shields
• an Infested with 200 Health

you get

• a Corpus with 250 Health & 250 Shields
• an Infested with 500 Health

If the Corpus is harder to kill than the Infested, it's because it has two types of hitpoints, so you can't optimise your damage types as effectively.

Grineer benefit more than either because they get the same proportion of extra Health points, but also get an extra dose of the damage reduction from Armour points.

19 hours ago, chaotea said:

the higher the armor value the less steep the damage reduction is

I think you're looking at the "relative damage infliction" graph on the wiki?

A graph of Armour Points to Damage Reduction would be the opposite of that -- it gets very steep at high Armour values.

[chaotea]

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Eh, no. Give a 150% increase to Health & Shields of the following: ....

-

... If the Corpus is harder to kill than the Infested, it's because it has two types of hitpoints, so you can't optimise your damage types as effectively.

Thats what i said though. Infested are easier to kill.

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Eh, no. Give a 150% increase to Health & Shields of the following: 

• a Corpus with 100 Health & 100 Shields
• an Infested with 200 Health

you get

• a Corpus with 250 Health & 250 Shields
• an Infested with 500 Health

This is a stupid way to talk about it though.

To put it another way you could say

"Give a 150% increase to health and sheilds to the following:

• a corpus with 100 health and 100 sheilds
• an infested with 100,000 health

you get

• a corpus with 250 health and 250 sheilds
• an infested with 250,000 health

So obviously corpus are chumps and infested are gods!"

But it doesnt work that way. If you tweak the numbers you can fit any argument.

 

If you want a true comparison, its best to take the two basic units of each faction: The Crewman and the Charger.

At level 101, the two have the following effective health (combined sheild and hp)

Crewman: 14,239.39

Charger: 8,666.56

So with the 150% bonus the steel path stats are:

Crewman: 35,598.475

Charger: 21,666.4

So while the idea of "if infested and corpus had the same health then they would be as strong as each other" is a sound principle, it falls apart because infested and corpus units dont have the same levels. Copus have about a 50-50 split of health and sheilds, whereas infested have around 120% of corpus unit health, but no sheilds.

So infested are easier to kill, not only because of only having 1 type of defence, but also having lower overall effective health than their counterparts in other factions.

Side note, Grineer Lancers aparently at level 101 have an effective health of 60,121.05. So Armor really the fodder defence of choice.

 

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

I think you're looking at the "relative damage infliction" graph on the wiki?

A graph of Armour Points to Damage Reduction would be the opposite of that -- it gets very steep at high Armour values.

 

I think you're being presumptuous. Im not looking at the "relative damage inflicton" graph, Nore am i looking at the graph i assume you're looking at, "relitive health" graph.

Im looking at the "enemy armour scaling" graph, which shows two lines. The old scaling line and the new. The new one scales steadily till about level 80, but then slows down considerably. Though it doesnt make a huge difference for Steel path as the base values are doubled, but it does mean that a level 100 enemy isnt twice as hard to kill as a level 50, so steel path scaling is alittle wonky compared to regular missions.

[OmegaVoid]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Thats what i said though. Infested are easier to kill.

You said Infested are easier to kill because... 

On 2021-03-09 at 10:29 AM, chaotea said:

Where the others see a 300% increase in stats, Infested noly see a 150% increase. Effectivly making them twice as easy to kill.

I showed you how the sums actually work out with an example using equal total HP, demonstrating as clearly as possible that Corpus do not receive a larger percentage HP bonus than Infested. That's all.

2 hours ago, chaotea said:

Im looking at the "enemy armour scaling" graph

That graph only shows how the base Armour Points get multiplied according to the enemy level, though. You could use it to calculate how many AP an enemy type has at any given level, but to find out how much damage reduction the enemy gets for those Armour Points, you need to make a further calculation.

Going from lvl.50s to lvl.100s, a Butcher has about 3 times the eHP, a Lancer becomes ~6 times harder to kill, and a Heavy Gunner is ~10 times tougher. The higher the Armour Points go, the steeper the damage reduction gets.

A lvl.100 Butcher only gets ~18% DR, while a lvl.100 Heavy Gunner gets ~95% DR. That's the difference between having 5 Armour at base level 1, and 500 Armour at base level 8.

Even in Steel Path, a lvl.100 Butcher would only have around 36% DR (~170 Armour Points), at lvl.150 it's still only ~43% (~226 Armour Points). They just never catch up.

The difference between the Lancers and the Heavy Gunners shrinks a bit though, because the Lancers get into the near-vertical bit of the Armour-Points-to-DR curve which the Heavy gunners reached at a much lower level.

[chaotea]

12 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

You said Infested are easier to kill because...

Ok, but in that case you didnt mention that they only do melee damage.

Seriously. Its one of the reasons. Sure not the only one, but as we were talking specifically about steel path i only mentioned the one most important to the discussion, as the sheild / hp thing is true off all mission types.

14 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

I showed you how the sums actually work out with an example using equal total HP, demonstrating as clearly as possible that Corpus do not receive a larger percentage HP bonus than Infested. That's all.

Thats not all, unless you're deliberatly being stupid.

You showed the sums actually work out in an exabple where in adition to applying the +150%, you also add an additional +100% heath to the infested for no reason. Still, im glad you looked only at the first 3 words of my reply before hammering out your own.

21 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

The difference between the Lancers and the Heavy Gunners shrinks a bit though, because the Lancers get into the near-vertical bit of the Armour-Points-to-DR curve which the Heavy gunners reached at a much lower level.

I confess here i may have got the wrong end of the stick, thinking that this level scalling armor would apply to the +150% buff, whereas in hindsight its probably a multiplier applied to armor value rather than a boost on the armor level, if that makes sense.

[parttimeparty]

On 2021-03-01 at 7:14 AM, Steel_Rook said:

Well, if DE would just let us reroll one Weekly objective per week this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

If DE gave us control over anything it would be an issue.

We play a game where we constantly have to keep builds and weapons we like a secret or else they will nerf them. Think about that for a sec.