Remove “cold steel” from nightwave

[fr4gb4ll]

18 hours ago, Lutesque said:

That's Definitely not what we're After and it's Precisely those issues with the Old Alert System why I'm bugged about Nightwave working the way it currently does now....

Why exactly does Nightwave have Seasons and Timed Acts ?

It might not be as bad as Alerts but theres definitely some Overlap without that old System and that's what I want gone most of all... An actual Replacement for Alerts like they Promised.

not that i want to say that the NW-system is great or anything - neither did i had any problems with the old alerts but where the old alerts often required the player to be present in the game or at least quick to come online if they wanted to do them for any specific rewards ( 1 hour 30min, of i recall correctly - and usually the same alert was re-issued within one day for us 'poor europeans' with a different tie-zone). NW is far a perfect solution but it's also far superior to it in respect of the time you have to so those missions.

as for the 'why' of seasons anf timed acts: the nameing of 'seasons' is a poor choice imo since it only reminds of other silly games that uses those season-nonsene to milk money out of the players... DE does this a bit different... they do not charge us (this would be a crass action contrary to their stated motto of 'free2play") but ofc they need to get money for their product too - and my guess here is that this comes from not only from 'obvious' sources of the users buying platinum, packs and cosmetics but also from investors who are needed to 'convinced' by the numbers of users playing the game... thus you could say that we also pay for the game with our time (and maybe with collected data and information too - google showed the way afterall). that is also very likely the reason for all grind and RNG in the game since it keeps us playing and thus make the game looking good to investors - no sane investor would invest into a 'dead game' afterall, right? so, NW is just another one of those time-traps for us player - but at least for some (like me) it's a trap i can enjoy while in it ^^)

19 hours ago, Lutesque said:

What if you did everything else and only the Steel Path/Railjack Challenge is left ? You can't skip it.... You can only wait it out until Next Week... But then Next Week comes and you do everything and then that same challenge from last Week Pops Back Up....

fair point but since you can just keep ignoring it, also of no real relevance ^^

ofc, you could go at this dilemma as i like to do: ignore those task you don't like much until you can do them at the same time with other tasks a week or more later... sure, that won't work for everything and i guess not for SP-tasks at all unless you really find yourself in there at one point anyway (maybe you want the mastery points or something).

19 hours ago, Lutesque said:

So then Why does DE feed this Compulsion ?

to make money, what else? there is nothing free in life and even (or especially) f2p-games will cost you something: your time, your data (like in behaviour of you inside the game or even outside of it when browing) or other kind of information you give 'freely' (or more like because most people don't realize what they give out) to them...

is this a bad thing? sure is, but if you at least understand this methods you can decide for yourself if you're willing to pay this way. ofc, it's kinda sneaky too - but that's necessary since most people don't like to be manipulated psychologically. this isn't just in games but everywhere else too where money is the lever that turns the word - advertisment, shoping in the supermarket, you name it. blame psychoanalysis for this (well and capitalism too, if you want ^^)

19 hours ago, Lutesque said:

People like you are always so quick to point the finger at playerz telling them they need to Grow A Spine.... Well I have news for you.... Human Beans are Easy to Manipulate ! 😱 Pretty much every developer does this wether they realise it or not... The Problem then is... When does this Manipulation go too Far ? 

far from it. i just understand the extend of this whole matter and learned to live with it by either ignoring or avoiding it, if possible... i certainly don't waste my time blaming the stupid humans for not 'realizing' their own foolishness nor the 'manipulators' for doing this for their gain... it's in the human nature afterall.

where does this go to far? well, obviously if it breaks any laws. in a more personal view, it gone to far when you, as an individum decide that it's enough and stop using those human-fly-traps for yourself. if in the meantime you feel that you need to point your finger on the problem, that's also your decision to do... imo though i suggest you take a look at the old story of sisyphus and what it gained him in the end - or don quijote, if you want to see it from another angle... in short: a waste of time - but that's just my personal view of it...

[Hobie-wan]

19 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I mean it technically does if you go back to 2007 and Buy Dark Sector but my Time Machine is in the Shop so that's not an option for me yet.... 

Ebay is just a tab and a few keystrokes away.

19 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

It's not a productive answer; if parts of the game are not enjoyable for some players, its in DE's interests to address that to retain players.

It is impossible to make every player 100% happy. When adding new things, the best one can hope for is that a majority like or are at least ok with the addition and if it is optional, that's great.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

En 1/3/2021 a las 9:05, (PSN)Vexx757 dijo:

Cold steel is a task from nightwave where you have to kill 1,000 enemies from steel path. Me personally I don`t care for the damage mete and I don`t enjoy steel path coz I don`t find fighting high-level enemies fun and there is no incentive to do it in terms of rewards, I am a part of the minority that don`t like steel path, some people might enjoy playing it but me and other people we don`t want to be forced to play it.

Increasing enemies armour, health and damage output is boring to me, I prefer enemies that are smart and you have to think before you act that’s my kind of fun, basically enemy AI in this game needs to be improved.

It`s bad enough that we have to get six animals for conservation which is tedious but killing 1,000 enemies is not necessary, there are other ppl like new players that can`t do it coz they don`t have the build to be able to do it.

Even through I’m aware that you can skip this however there are ppl that are OCD in completing it plus after we reach past 30 you get a chance to get credits with no limit and to get the most out of it, you need to complete all the tasks.

That being said, you need to either reduce the number to 100 or remove it entirely but if you ask me, I’d rather it to be removed.

 

If I were to play steel path consistently it needs some drastic improvements,

Here are some ideas of improves.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1205314-steel-path-the-common-sense-way-to-give-it-an-incentive/

 

SP  it's not that hard. U can easy do a infested survival for one hour alone. 1000 enemys it's not much hard anyways.

 

 

[Megalomaniakaal]

Rather than disconnecting it, I think it should be a special that so long as it's unfinished keeps coming up each week as a optional bonus and be worth 10k. Once you have done it it might or might not reappear during the season again, up to devs.

 

[Steel_Rook]

On 2021-04-08 at 10:22 PM, fr4gb4ll said:

to make money, what else? there is nothing free in life and even (or especially) f2p-games will cost you something: your time, your data (like in behaviour of you inside the game or even outside of it when browing) or other kind of information you give 'freely' (or more like because most people don't realize what they give out) to them...

DE don't make money off of Nightwave. Sure, it does offer slots and Reactors/Catalysts, but it offers them in such small numbers that it's essentially irrelevant to those of us who buy them. Nightwave is a free Battle Pass, which makes it the worst of both worlds. It burns players out through appointment mechanics and manufactured scarcity without offering a RMT bypass option the way Primed stuff does. Half the time, it feels like DE throw in whatever mobile phone game mechanic the talking heads at Leyou think will make money or drive engagement without any other meaningful motivation. It rather reminds me of Paragon Studios developer Matt Miller making an absolute clown of himself defending a bunch of grindy prestige items, when it later turned out those were a mandate from publisher NCsoft that the guy HAD to defend even if I'm pretty sure he didn't like them, either.

I say the above because I really can't find any other reason to stick a Battle Pass in a game without monetising it.

[fr4gb4ll]

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

DE don't make money off of Nightwave. Sure, it does offer slots and Reactors/Catalysts, but it offers them in such small numbers that it's essentially irrelevant to those of us who buy them. Nightwave is a free Battle Pass, which makes it the worst of both worlds. It burns players out through appointment mechanics and manufactured scarcity without offering a RMT bypass option the way Primed stuff does. Half the time, it feels like DE throw in whatever mobile phone game mechanic the talking heads at Leyou think will make money or drive engagement without any other meaningful motivation. It rather reminds me of Paragon Studios developer Matt Miller making an absolute clown of himself defending a bunch of grindy prestige items, when it later turned out those were a mandate from publisher NCsoft that the guy HAD to defend even if I'm pretty sure he didn't like them, either.

I say the above because I really can't find any other reason to stick a Battle Pass in a game without monetising it.

well, i can't say for sure if DE profit from this, even if i could take a look at their balance sheet since it's more of an idea that certain game mechanics equals longer player involvements... afterall those who spend time for those tasks might be in the game regardless. it could also be that those player who don't like those game mechanics spend less time in the game in total... the only thing DE can learn from the collected data is how many player done those tasks and also how many did not - as for the reasons for either, they can only guess...

so yes, this battle pass idea is a bit of an uncertain, double-edged sword that some player might like and others hate - but at least it doesn't really is mandatory for anyone to play the game and a lot of the tasks in NW are done by just playing the game and some others only need a little bit of change in the loadout, something that isn't much of a problem imo.

[RazerXPrime]

Unlock an infested survival node. I personally did Gabii. Jump in with Octavia.

10 mins later:

[Steel_Rook]

41 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

so yes, this battle pass idea is a bit of an uncertain, double-edged sword that some player might like and others hate - but at least it doesn't really is mandatory for anyone to play the game and a lot of the tasks in NW are done by just playing the game and some others only need a little bit of change in the loadout, something that isn't much of a problem imo.

Honestly, I still say that letting us reroll one mission per week - potentially only a "Recovered" mission - would solve most of these complaints. When DE implemented Nigthwave, it was straight-up just a bad Battle Pass. Since the changes to Season 2, it's been mostly tolerable, between the redone Challenges and the "Recovered" mechanic. It's close enough to be innocuous that it's just frustrating how it doesn't do the last few simple things it could to make the system seamless.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

51 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

would solve most of these complaints

It really wouldn't. Theb people would complain that they got a reroll they liked even less. It'd be a never ending cycle. Best thing to do is just don't do it. These go on long enough that you don't have to do every single one.

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

It really wouldn't. Theb people would complain that they got a reroll they liked even less. It'd be a never ending cycle. Best thing to do is just don't do it. These go on long enough that you don't have to do every single one.

You can always reroll again next week. Vermintide lets you do that and I've not heard people complain. Right now, a "bad" weekly can block your Recovered missions as they're "recovered" in reverse chronological order - most recent first.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

It really wouldn't. Theb people would complain that they got a reroll they liked even less. It'd be a never ending cycle. Best thing to do is just don't do it. These go on long enough that you don't have to do every single one.

far from every one, too. the 2/3 estimate is even based off of Seasons ending in the usual timely manner, but they usually don't so that means that necessary rate is more around like... half, maybe even less.

whether that be do a few things every Week or even skip some Weeks and fully complete some others.... just so many chores Tasks that you don't have to do.

[Megalomaniakaal]

14 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I say the above because I really can't find any other reason to stick a Battle Pass in a game without monetising it.

I'm pretty sure nightwave was a way to unify operations/events with the common alerts/rewards we used to get before. It just made it all a little less messy and effectively brought us a little more standardized(ish) seasonal content system. Which is something that was kinda asked for by the community back then. Way to be able to earn a sort of credit to buy nitain with for an example rather than miss out on a relatively short lasting alert for it that comes and goes at random. It is definitely a improvement over what we had before.

[2ndPersonPlural]

I don't i often play steel path either, never liked the way they decided to do the difficulty scaling, but I think the cold steel challenge is a good one.  It gets people to vary the missions they play, which is like 75% of why NW exists.

[Steel_Rook]

On 2021-04-11 at 8:51 AM, Megalomaniakaal said:

I'm pretty sure nightwave was a way to unify operations/events with the common alerts/rewards we used to get before. It just made it all a little less messy and effectively brought us a little more standardized(ish) seasonal content system. Which is something that was kinda asked for by the community back then. Way to be able to earn a sort of credit to buy nitain with for an example rather than miss out on a relatively short lasting alert for it that comes and goes at random. It is definitely a improvement over what we had before.

Well... Yes and no. It didn't really unify Events and Operations because both of those still happen. Scarlet Spear, Orphyx Venom and Plague Star have all taken place since Nightwave's introduction entirely outside that system. Similarly, Thermia Fractures and the Ghoul Plague still happen regularly on their own system. Nightwave quite literally moved Alert rewards to a brand new, entirely unconnected system, leaving Alerts to serve pretty much the same role as Operations now - one-time, custom-tailored Events, usually in conjunction with a Devstream.

My broader point, though, is all of this could have been done without using an almost one-to-one recreation of a Battle Pass. There was no reason to break Nightwave into Seasons. The notion that Nightwave brings "story" is a red herring. It brings nearly none of that, and the game already has a perfectly serviceable "Quests" system for story delivery. And Quests don't expire unless you do them RITE NAO. Sure, the Nightwave we have today is quite a bit more lenient than Season 1 was supposed to be. It lasts something like 6 months with a generous catch-up mechanic and offers all of its unique rewards within a small fraction of its actual progression path. That doesn't make it "not a Battle Pass," though. I'd just argue it makes it "a bad battle pass" as it has all the player-facing FOMO without generating much in the way of revenue or engagement.

I'm a cynical bastard at the best of times, but this really, REALLY feels like a corporate mandate that DE had to scramble to fit into their game. I say this because I've seen it before - developers having to put systems in their games that they fundamentally disagree with, then embarrass themselves defending them. Look no further than the now-infamous "pride and accomplishment" comment. I firmly believe that the developer who delivered it knew full well it was rank nonsense, but what else was he going to say? "We put in Lootboxes because EA want to make online casinos rather than video games?" That's likely going to get him fired and likely involved in arbitration over NDA violations. So developers say what they have to say in order to defend other people's decisions, and maybe even convince themselves that "No, really! It's OK! We can make this work." But to an outside observer, it just feels irrational and insincere.

I mean, it's either that or DE are just so unlucky that the end up "accidentally" recreating all of the worst F2P monetisation methods by sheer chance over and over again.

[Megalomaniakaal]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

It didn't really unify Events and Operations because both of those still happen. Scarlet Spear, Orphyx Venom and Plague Star have all taken place since Nightwave's introduction entirely outside that system.

Well, yes but I mean that in the past Wolf, Zealot and Nihil would all have been operations/events as well. And while we still get operations and we still get an occasional alert for Gift of the Lotus, mostly they have moved into the nightwave system. I think we mostly still get some classical operations and alerts because they are less work for DE.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Pff, you don't need a 100% NW completion, don't like it - don't do it, you'll finish NW easily without it. I skip eidolons and orbs because they are not my thing. 

This would have been an issue if you couldn't reach lvl 30 (all NW prises) without it and NW ends. In reality you have extra ton of weeks to complete it, just a little later. 

[RazerXPrime]

I'm Rank 39 and I have not completed everything. I think I'm missing 3 ranks or so. Who cares.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

Well, yes but I mean that in the past Wolf, Zealot and Nihil would all have been operations/events as well. And while we still get operations and we still get an occasional alert for Gift of the Lotus, mostly they have moved into the nightwave system. I think we mostly still get some classical operations and alerts because they are less work for DE.

True enough, I suppose. I was going to bring up how the Wolf of Saturn Six mission was added as a direct response to people being unable to find enough of him, but then I remember the The Pyrus Project. All that constituted was "Random enemy spawns in mission, kill it. Do that enough, get Zylok." That's already less involved than the Wolf event and... Actually suffered similar design issues with Bombards and Noxes being borderline unkillable at high levels with the added armour. So fair enough, I suppose. I stand corrected.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Oh not this again, this is the 5th time this task has popped up. Where`s the task where you have to do a spy mission while using your operator? that was actually fun, bring that back!

[xxswatelitexx]

On 2021-03-01 at 9:05 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Increasing enemies armour, health and damage output is boring to me, I prefer enemies that are smart and you have to think before you act that’s my kind of fun, basically enemy AI in this game needs to be improved.

 

 

This isn't that kind of game.

Steve mentioned a few years ago the reason enemies don't have smarter Ai is because they die so fast that it would be pointless.

Also if your build is good - steel pathe enemies are just as easy as normal enemies. I kill Acolytes so fast half the time I didn't realize it was an acolyte. 

 

If you want a game with "Smart" enemies - I suggest

Division 2 - Enemies will constantly try to flank you and use AoE to keep moving you around 

Outriders - Staying in cover isn't an option, game forces you to kill as fast as possible while avoiding all the boss abilities. Sometimes using the enviroment designed in a specific way to your advantage

Monster Hunter World - Entire game is about mastering skills and fighting smart bosses. It is a great thrill mastering skills to perfectly time counters then wrecking a monster when they make a mistake.  

[Hobie-wan]

We're way into this chunk of Nightwave and the point of getting all of the regular rewards if you'd missed previous seasons while still being able to skip plenty of challenges. This is a non issue, but could be a nudge to complete the star chart if you haven't already.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

This thread is from April. How the hell did someone find the thread to even care about leaving a comment??

In regards to TC's opening post... I rather keep that particular Nightwave challenge and get rid of Hytrolyst one. I'm Legendary Rank 1 with 1100 login days and I only have one hydrolyst kill. I don't give a crap about eidolons whatsoever so they need to be remove from the challenge list.

[Lutesque]

12 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

 

Steve mentioned a few years ago the reason enemies don't have smarter Ai is because they die so fast that it would be pointless.

What Steve neglected to mention is how the game pretty much drives everyone to this "Kill Everything" way of thinking....

Perhaps if we could Acquire Resources, Affinity and Standing without needing to kill then maybe all these Bullet Sponges would finally make sense....

 

[Megalomaniakaal]

5 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

This thread is from April. How the hell did someone find the thread to even care about leaving a comment??

Probably google search.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

18 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

-snip-

I understand however 8 years ago the meta was cc which is why ppl use to say "Vauban is king" but now the meta is damage (starting from sortie) things have been getting nerf left, right and centre which is problematic.

Their was a time an enemy used a grappling hook to pull me in then a flame thrower got me downed, I was shocked that it happened but it was cool it was tow enemies teaming up to take me down which was not deliberate something like that is interesting.

That`s one of the reasons why I don`t like steel path, in the end if you have a good build it`s the equivalent to playing a low level missions, this type of challenge to me is lazy and  boring to me.

The meta needs to change or make different game-modes that don`t prioritize damage, we have to many game-mode that prioritise damage when it shouldn't be. Here are two examples of game-mode I came up with that don`t require damage.

Spoiler

• This is pretty much your typical mission types except you can only kill the enemies if there are affected by cc abilities first.

Effective warframes:

Vauban - 1st 2nd 4th

Hydroid - 1st 2nd 4th

Nyx - 3rd

These warframes have cc abilities that can cover a wide area and affect a lot of enemies which can make them kill enemies efficiently making them the top choice.

 

• This is a mission where you use operators that can benefit from warframe abilities however you can only use operators and the only thing your chosen warframe can do in the mission is sprint can cast abilities that can affect operators.

 

Effective warframes:

Volt - 2nd 3rd

Wisp - 1st

Harrow - 2nd 3rd 4th

These warframes provide useful buffs or abilities that operators can use while in the mission from ranging from damage to survivability.

 

Unfortunately I don`t like any of those games i`m into games like god of war, ninja gaiden and DMC, here are some other examples.

Scarlet Nexus

Crash bandicoot 4

God Fall

Returnal

These game you can`t just turn your brain of but with warframe you can.