Dev Workshop: Corpus Proxima & The New Railjack

[JimmuTanno88]

Hypetrain priiiiiiiiime!
This looks absolutly amazing, but not fully appreciative of the removal of grid upgrading/detaching avionics from the railjack. Good for function I suppose, but kind of lessens the connection to the ship itself in my opinion. Very very excited for mechs in missions 👀

[Archwizard]

30 minutes ago, DeathMavrik said:

Saying no without any explanation doesn't really contribute anything. 

I didn't just say "no", I literally explained myself in the following statement. "Bigger is better" is not a universal truism, you can't just say it and expect that to be the end of the discussion. You didn't provide enough context to back your own position; saying "they should just use what they had to fix the problem" is as broad and pointless a statement as "Oh you're feeling sick? Well just stop that." It uses the goal in place of an explanation of the process.

Since DE has already shown their position, the onus was on you to explain why its existing size was an asset rather than a defect.

You've done so NOW, by stating they could have added more interactive nodes in the space. Okay, but now you have to face the same question they did, of what nodes to make and how to actually make the added space useful, and then weigh the added gameplay against the value players would get out of it. 'Cuz I can tell you right now, if you provided the same loop we already had and added vital steps to completion, players would hate it -- and the devs have no reason to work on additions players won't use to justify the workload.

[LSG501]

Still think the plexus idea is stupid....even more so if I'm being forced into using forma for it.

I hope we're going to get some 'compensation' on the hull front for those of us that have already maxed out the hull strength/health etc and why do I get the idea that we'll end up needing more endo than we receive to 'max out' the mods we'd already maxed out as intrinsics avionics. 

As with others there needs to be clarification on the 'early adopters' bits, I didn't waste resources on useless stuff either.

 

Got to be honest though, none of this really makes me want to get back into railjack, because nothing looks to have changed in relation to the main gameplay, yes we got some changes to the how the railjack is setup/works and a few naming convention changes but it's not really changing the actual missions much in the grand scheme of things.

Sticking new resources to grind in the same old missions doesn't all of a sudden make something 'new' or 'better' either, it just means more grinding the same stuff over and over.

 

 

[LordIsi]

I'm actually kinda annoyed that I have to craft another 20+ trash t1 parts for my maxed out t3 railjack, with completed dojo research, dozen or so parts melted with valence fusion, and *a hundred or more* converted into Dirac just to get the t3 reward.

 

Can you please clarify what exactly counts towards the t3 reward, because after reading through the comments it seems alot of us feel we are getting kicked in the twin rollers here for actually playing the game efficiently and not building every. Single. Weapon. We have found.

[PunishedWelfare]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Unified content. Core Warframe meets Railjack. Necramechs meet Core Warframe. It’s all connecting now.

[Leqesai]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)ggh667124 said:

I did , just reposting here if it gets lost in the pile . But it definitely seems that these are the most common concerns .

People are concerned about some of these issues for sure. 

I don't really agree that the topics are concerning, however. Until I actually see how the changes are implemented it is impossible for us to know whether or not they will actually work or be problems.

[OniDax]

Your mistake with Railjack was making it Bridge Commander and not OG Battlefront 2. Making the railjack a liability that you have to baby sit and maintain was never going to work and still won't work. A high-action space combat mode like the OG Battlefront 2, where you're flying around in fighters to destroy parts of various capital ships, and boarding those ships to take them down from the inside, while other players are defending your own capital ship, would have expanded Warframe's gameplay while maintaining the same pace of the gameplay. The concept is similar, but your capital ship is in place of your Railjack. You're not flying your capital ship around. You're flying in various types of starfighters (not Archwings; FIGHTERS) that move and animate like fighters, going up against other fighters. You're boarding capital ships through their hangars, and they're boarding your ship through your's. You're not just ticking down the health of your ships. You're destroying turrets and shields on the outside and then you're attacking/defending specific areas of the interior, like shields, weapon systems, the bridge, etc. There's parity between you and the enemy. You're not defending a fragile ship. Your ship and the enemy's are the objective, so they're the strongest thing in the gameplay space. Because you didn't make Railjack like this, but made it a fragile liability that you have to micromanage, it failed as a system.

[FrozenDorf]

@[DE]Rebecca

Adding to my previous question; why did you guys choose a reimbursement tier metric that is, at best, orthogonal to "investment" in OG Railjack? I have a few hundred hours spent grinding specific Avionics (that time was poofed when you guys reworked avionics to no longer have "schools"), looking for the ephemera (hundreds of runs, also poofed when you realized the droprate was inhumanly low and put it as a vendor item elsewhere attainable in an hour), searching for the right rolls on weapons (poofed when valence was added) and none of that matters because I didn't actually build 30 guns?

[AvohkahTamer]

Somewhat mixed feelings about a lot of this news. Drastic simplification was definitely needed (switching to traditional mods and elements is a very welcome change!), but I fear the possibility that some aspects may have been simplified too much to the detriment of the crew playstyle.

For example, with the changes to ammo and flux energy, on paper it seems like engineering has next to no use anymore, since ammo is individual and regens over time, and energy is the Warframe's energy. Even though crafting ammo still does refill it for everyone, how can we keep track of what our crewmates need at any given moment and stay on top of things? It's also more difficult to support crewmates with energy so they don't have to drop off the guns to use Dispensary or a pizza every few minutes.

Basically I kinda really enjoyed actively supporting the crew by keeping supplies topped off in the current system, but that role is going to be simultaneously harder and potentially less effective in the new simplified system.

All that said, I'm excited and have an open mind for these changes, and I'm confident it's all going to be a net positive, but I'm also somewhat shocked there isn't going to be an early test cluster launch for feedback, especially considering by your own words, this is:

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

probably some of the most dramatic systemic changes we’ve made to Warframe since ‘Update 7: Stormbringer’ almost 8 years ago.

If any update warranted a test cluster, IMO it would be this one.

[K-Squared]

Any chance we can get ability to put our clan emblem on the side of our railjacks with this change? That's the biggest oversight with the cosmetics options, and while mechanics changes are certainly more important, seems like it'd be a good time to get a solution to this as well.

[Numerounius]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I hope we're going to get some 'compensation' on the hull front for those of us that have already maxed out the hull strength/health etc and why do I get the idea that we'll end up needing more endo than we receive to 'max out' the mods we'd already maxed out as intrinsics. 

Exactly, I mentioned this in my comment fully upgraded grid and avonic costs 6140 dirac a 1:1 conversion ratio means that we will lose out on dirac if it becomes an unranked R10 mod. This is not even counting the forma requirements that will be needed to slot it which was already built into the grid system. If it was a 1:3 ratio this would mean we aren't forking out extra endo we are getting from regular content just for RJ. 

 

I'm all for core unification but what's the damn point when the content is so fundamentally different that it becomes an issue when DE neglects a portion of the content that makes it not worth playing for.

[-Augustus-]

1 minute ago, AvohkahTamer said:

If any update warranted a test cluster, IMO it would be this one.

Seriously. This has all the makings of a trainwreck, even by DE standards.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Can we please please please keep the current RJ interior as Captura? Sure it's not ideal and it's being removed but I really like the current interior and it would be a nice bonus for those that took part in RJ before the changes.

[SolidSnake8774]

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Still think the plexus idea is stupid....even more so if I'm being forced into using forma for it.

I hope we're going to get some 'compensation' on the hull front for those of us that have already maxed out the hull strength/health etc and why do I get the idea that we'll end up needing more endo than we receive to 'max out' the mods we'd already maxed out as intrinsics. 

As with others there needs to be clarification on the 'early adopters' bits, I didn't waste resources on useless stuff either.

 

Got to be honest though, none of this really makes me want to get back into railjack, because nothing looks to have changed in relation to the main gameplay, yes we got some changes to the how the railjack is setup/works and a few naming convention changes but it's not really changing the actual missions much in the grand scheme of things.

Sticking new resources to grind in the same old missions doesn't all of a sudden make something 'new' or 'better' either, it just means more grinding the same stuff over and over.

 

 

I pretty much echo some of that in my post too.

In the end alot of this was change for the sake of change and brings little to the actual fundamentals, if not lessened what was appealing about the fundamentals to begin with. 

[MobyTheDuck]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Player has completed at least 30 Wreckage: Tier 3

 - Everything in Tier 1 AND Tier 2
 - 3x Rush Repair Drones
 - Legendary Core
 - Umbra Forma
 - Railjack Resource Bundle #3

Wait, what. Why 30? I have collected and built every single Tier 3 component and weapon, but I only have 24 items.
3 Reactors, 3 Engines, 3 Shields, 3 Apoc, 3 Carcinox, 3 Cyrophon, 3 Photor, 3 Pulsar.

If I include the Tier 3 ordinances (Galvarc, Milati and Tycho), thats only 27.
You mean we have to buy the Sigma items too? Or build repeats? That's a bit stupid.

[Zalabim]

In all the Plexus talk about carrying the avionics you hope to play with I always think the same thing. So my necessary feedback is this: The railjack weapons are the number one thing I care about when it comes to hoping to play with the certain railjack things. It's like you load into a normal mission and the only primary weapon you can use is whatever the host brought. I built every gun and I want to be able to pick which ones I play with.

[LSG501]

7 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

I'm all for core unification but what's the damn point when the content is so fundamentally different that it becomes an issue when DE neglects a portion of the content that makes it not worth playing for.

5 minutes ago, SolidSnake8774 said:

In the end alot of this was change for the sake of change and brings little to the actual fundamentals, if not lessened what was appealing about the fundamentals to begin with. 

The thing is I can't really say things were that complicated when it first came out, the main reason people might have found it 'difficult' is primarily down to how DE designed the UI/UX because that wasn't very well thought out. 

 

 

[Malkiur]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Player has Completed 1 or more Wreckage or Clan BP: Tier 1

1x Rush Repair Drone
2x Armament Slots
10 x Riven Slivers
Bonus Railjack Mods
- Munitions Vortex
- Battle Forge
- Particle Ram
- Void Hole
- Railjack Resource Bundle

Player has completed at least 12 Wreckage: Tier 2

- Everything in Tier 1
- 2x Rush Repair Drones
- 15 Riven Slivers
- 10,000 Endo
 -7 Day Resource and Affinity Booster
- Railjack Resource Bundle #2

Player has completed at least 30 Wreckage: Tier 3

 - Everything in Tier 1 AND Tier 2
 - 3x Rush Repair Drones
 - Legendary Core
 - Umbra Forma
 - Railjack Resource Bundle #3

I've seen a few people wondering whether Fused and Sold/Scrapped (After completion) wreckage will also count towards this total. I presume it will, but could it be clarified? Also, is there a way to check how many one has completed?:o

Thank you for the amazing workshop!

[TheFBD]

14 minutes ago, FrozenDorf said:

@[DE]Rebecca

Adding to my previous question; why did you guys choose a reimbursement tier metric that is, at best, orthogonal to "investment" in OG Railjack? I have a few hundred hours spent grinding specific Avionics (that time was poofed when you guys reworked avionics to no longer have "schools"), looking for the ephemera (hundreds of runs, also poofed when you realized the droprate was inhumanly low and put it as a vendor item elsewhere attainable in an hour), searching for the right rolls on weapons (poofed when valence was added) and none of that matters because I didn't actually build 30 guns?

i'm with you there, all mods and everything including intrinsics maxed, still i'm far from that tier 3. this makes no sense.

 

7 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

Wait, what. Why 30? I have collected and built every single Tier 3 component and weapon, but I only have 24 items.
3 Reactors, 3 Engines, 3 Shields, 3 Apoc, 3 Carcinox, 3 Cyrophon, 3 Photor, 3 Pulsar.

If I include the Tier 3 ordinances (Galvarc, Milati and Tycho), thats only 27.
You mean we have to buy the Sigma items too? Or build repeats? That's a bit stupid.

That's an understatement.

[Testostzzet]

I'm willing to give these changes a chance, but I'm a bit dismayed at how much Railjack has been simplified. There are many aspects of how it currently exists that I thought were just the right amount of depth- upgrading the grid, for one, which allowed me to juggle with having lower ranked avionics to so I wouldn't go over capacity, without those avionics being useless. It felt really good. I'm worried that this Plexus system is going to remove the feeling of my railjack being "my" railjack, with all of the little intricacies that made it stand out as my own. If another player can plug themselves in and affect the performance so drastically, It could potentially take away from that feeling of pride & ownership in getting my railjack to the point and performance it's at.

The other two big things in this regard are player energy replacing flux energy and the shrinking of the ship. For flux energy - I have to see the final numbers on ability costs, but I like playing my frames very differently from how I like playing my railjack, and their energy management is likewise set up differently. Don't forget what happened when you originally had archwings borrow frame stats- everybody defaulted to the tankiest frame in their kit and never played anything else. I don't want to have to create a "batteryframe" to be able to have the kind of experience I've enjoyed so much since Railjack's launch. Additionally, having each player have their own energy pool makes sense. I get that. But it is another chip off that feeling of "my" railjack, and too many chips (which I fear this update could wind up being) will be taking away a very valuable experience.

The final thing, the shrinking of the ship- this I just don't get. The railjack already could feel very small to me at times, and having the different floors and verticality were a very nice way to break up the windmilling melee spam. With the upcoming changes to melee in the future, is this new ship design taking into account the importance of being able to engage at range as well?

tl;dr I'm worried many of these changes are being made with the assumption that every player is set up to and enjoys playing frames that are complete solo acts with infinite energy, tankiness, and one-shotting ability. As someone who likes to make my frames a little more interesting (and more glass-cannon-y) this could very easily put me in a position where I feel obligated to build my frame a certain way to make up for the energy changes and the reduced movement space, as well as lose a lot of the individuality my railjack had. Fingers crossed, though. Some of these changes are very welcome too.

EDIT: That said, I just noticed the video was actually a full-length dev workshop in its own right and not a hype trailer; I only read the post. So I'll watch that and edit some of my gripes if necessary! : P

EDIT 2: Okay, I think the ship's going to be fine. I'll miss that downstairs room, I don't think it had to go, but it's a small, cosmetic loss. I still feel very strongly about many of these changes though, notably what I already talked about. You guys almost struck gold with Railjack and this, on the whole, feels like a step in the wrong direction. It had an opportunity to be its own, unique endgame system, an entirely new way to play a game once exhausting the base content. Most games don't have anything nearly as cool for "endgame," and hell I used to say the idea of endgame in warframe made no sense. Railjack was making me think otherwise. I'll make a separate post going through each point when I have time tomorrow.

That said, with all of the changes that have been made since RJ launch, with each good one there's been another that dampens difficulty, or dumbs down mechanics. I know you guys said this was simplification, not dumbing down, but... I'm sorry, a spade's a spade. The loss of what makes Railjack feel special is going to outweigh the benefits of accessibility. Railjack needed to be integrated into the game proper as its own thing, not remade to fit already existing systems. As someone else already said, I'm really worried this is just going to turn what was once my special, unique ship into a space-Uber.

I'm sure it's going to be good and cohesive as its own, new thing, but knowing what's going to be lost in the process is a bummer. I have to be honest, I felt no desire to hop into RJ today after reading this Dev Workshop. I think you guys missed the mark pretty hard on what the community wanted and what the system needed.

[Toonya]

Nyaze, thx for your work!

[SolidSnake8774]

5 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

The thing is I can't really say things were that complicated when it first came out, the main reason people might have found it 'difficult' is primarily down to how DE designed the UI/UX because that wasn't very well thought out. 

 

 

It honestly really wasnt that complicated. It was actually,  about the same if not more intuitive than initial modding from when first starting warframe out.  
the actual core of the problem is, warframe doesnt do tutorials or explains anything to you. And thats not a problem with railjack but with warframe as a whole since the beginning.

[SolidSnake8774]

2 minutes ago, Tavanaka said:

I'm willing to give these changes a chance, but I'm a bit dismayed at how much Railjack has been simplified. There are many aspects of how it currently exists that I thought were just the right amount of depth- upgrading the grid, for one, which allowed me to juggle with having lower ranked avionics to so I wouldn't go over capacity, without those avionics being useless. It felt really good. I'm worried that this Plexus system is going to remove the feeling of my railjack being "my" railjack, with all of the little intricacies that made it stand out as my own. If another player can plug themselves in and affect the performance so drastically, It could potentially take away from that feeling of pride & ownership in getting my railjack to the point and performance it's at.

The other two big things in this regard are player energy replacing flux energy and the shrinking of the ship. For flux energy - I have to see the final numbers on ability costs, but I like playing my frames very differently from how I like playing my railjack, and their energy management is likewise set up differently. Don't forget what happened when you originally had archwings borrow frame stats- everybody defaulted to the tankiest frame in their kit and never played anything else. I don't want to have to create a "batteryframe" to be able to have the kind of experience I've enjoyed so much since Railjack's launch. Additionally, having each player have their own energy pool makes sense. I get that. But it is another chip off that feeling of "my" railjack, and too many chips (which I fear this update could wind up being) will be taking away a very valuable experience.

The final thing, the shrinking of the ship- this I just don't get. The railjack already could feel very small to me at times, and having the different floors and verticality were a very nice way to break up the windmilling melee spam. With the upcoming changes to melee in the future, is this new ship design taking into account the importance of being able to engage at range as well?

tl;dr I'm worried many of these changes are being made with the assumption that every player is set up to and enjoys playing frames that are complete solo acts with infinite energy, tankiness, and one-shotting ability. As someone who likes to make my frames a little more interesting (and more glass-cannon-y) this could very easily put me in a position where I feel obligated to build my frame a certain way to make up for the energy changes and the reduced movement space, as well as lose a lot of the individuality my railjack had. Fingers crossed, though. Some of these changes are very welcome too.

Pretty much echo'd my concerns too. I agree with pretty much all of this. It also echos alot of my friends I've brought to warframe to play railjack.
 

 

[LSG501]

Just now, SolidSnake8774 said:

It honestly really wasnt that complicated. It was actually,  about the same if not more intuitive than initial modding from when first starting warframe out.  
the actual core of the problem is, warframe doesnt do tutorials or explains anything to you. And thats not a problem with railjack but with warframe as a whole since the beginning.

We've been complaining about 'tutorials' for longer than I can remember and would be useful but tbh even the tutorials we do have aren't always that helpful lol. 

[Shifted]

Why is railjack still mission based?
Where is the seamless transfer from orb vallis to railjack?

While not terrible, all of this is just fighting symptoms, simplifying and making it easier to start, but it doesn't really change why railjack is boring.

I wanted Warframe's No Man's Sky and I got Warframe's Star Wars Battlefront