Is it just me, or is DE making the game worse instead of better?

[Felsagger]

28 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

There are always going to be winners and losers in balance changes. I don’t think the game is “worse”, it’s just doesn’t feel the same anymore or your favorite play style is no longer viable

 

Wait, wait...

 

I don't want my predilect play style favored over other play styles. You are absolutely right. 

 

I WANT THIS GAME BE FUN AGAIN. It was fun before. Lately DE seems allergic to the word fun. Many of us outgrew the game but guess what somehow we manage to get some fun out of it when some missions are difficult or challenging for even odd reasons. 

The last quest gave me some hopes because it was fun. I want DE more receptive to the community and of course a community WITH a consensus. 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Is there like, only one way to play or something?

Sure I miss the old Blast effect, and Melee could use an animation passover.

But it seems like some of these complaints are from a playstyle not everyone will engage with?

 🤔 As a side thought, I’ve honestly wondered whether Steel Path in general was a mistake. It’s not giving “those who want a challenge” the challenge they’re looking for, and its existence means that players cannot stop themselves from viewing it as “The place to be at later playtimes”, which means that many players are being forced to use specific builds. Personally, I’ll be fine without an optional place to test some of my builds if it means players stop forcing themselves into a thing that kills build variety (which they were doing even before Gun Arcanes)

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

(Melee) Damage reduced like 3 times already.

I remember when my Sarpa (not prime) use to have so low crit/status that you need to work to get some multiplier. Now without some arcanes and other stuffs that I'm doing a lot of damage/status/crit. If someone more knowledgeable about game comes in then they can do even more.

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

There are so many things in this game that are broken, unfinished, ineffective, and above all bugged. And with every update there are more. You can report severe bugs with videos and all, and watch them not be fixed 2 years later.

And when something finally does get changed, it doesn't get fixed or improved, it gets deleted or made worse.

I'm not even trying to be mean here, it's my honest impression.

I feel like 2021 were like this. 2020 were better imho.

Yareli is boring (even for "freestyle" fan). Sevagoth same (it has some issues that for me are important) but has some Gloom at least. I haven't bought Caliban because it seems boring (after Yareli I don't feel like buying frames - I've been buying frames since Octavia, more or less).

Ghoulsaw has nice ride & slam but other are not great.

Tenet weapons are boring or clunky. Exec is interesting but... almost unmodable (his feature).

Nataruk & Verdilac are pretty nice. Other are not so (little subjective I guess).

We have RJ that's just boring action copied from normal mission, stick together for "longer sessions".

Yareli don't have roll/dash on Merulina.

Exodia contagion nerf - why not make it on every jump (but once) like Vitrica? No reason now after nerf.

In last year (2021) we not too much stuffs.

 

Previous years were better. Like we get Gaus (nice quick dashes), Wisp (buffs, invisibility), Grendel (ball), Xaku (disarmer - 1 & 2 even after nerf!). Probably few weapons. And probably many other stuffs... not great but there were a lot of it.

Even they tried something it was kind of good. Lavos was this - they have tried cooldowns and it kind of worked. Good for them.

 

It may be little subjective but RJ, Mechs, K-drives, Archguns (deployable) are either not finished or not interesting.

 

So yeah it's some stuffs nice some stuffs bad... it's just last year weren't good imho.

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

And, again, during all this time that melee got nerfed again and again and again, did DE even fix any bugs it had? Any at all? Because there are a lot (and I mean A LOT) that I remember from 1 or 2 years back, that are STILL there. Condition Overload, it got nerfed, but it's still bugged. Glaives, got nerfed, but are still bugged. You still can't heavy attack while wielding a gun (you could for a while, but it was horribly bugged - so DE deleted the feature instead of fixing the bug).

Or what about all those stances that don't have a complete moveset? 2 or 3 combos out of 4 being the exact same doesn't strike you as something worth fixing in years? How about a backwards combo? How about some free movement on the forward combo, or no janky forced movements on the neutral ones? How about heavy attacks that can actually hit an enemy right in front of you (yep, some can't do that)?

Melee got nerfed & "buffed".

Some nerfs are not harsh. Like Berseker nerf - it's reasonable to make it slow enough. Melee shouldn't be like machine guns.

Some nerfs were worse. Like nerf to Exodia Contagion.

 

On other hand rework of melee into 4 basic movement (standing, moving, block and block + moving) where good start. It made me use melee more rather than spamming random keys or using only one combo. Can it be better? Sure. Like you mentioned combos being similar, not all 4 combos, no backward combo is one of issues. Other are swapped standing & moving combo (e.g. bullet dance), weapons and stances not very unique (you have like 20 weapons, twice more stances and you don't use even half of it). DIY stances that you can switch, delete attacks would help in some cases (they wouldn't have to swap standing & moving combos for a lot of weapons).

 

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

No Primed Sure Footed and mindless aoe spam. 

I mean I could go on and on for DAYS.

I remember old days when I could blast enemies with Sonicor.... but I guess you meant ages of Corpus bow... Lenz probably and others.

Quote

Talk about us getting nerfed, how about talk about the gajillion ways we have been buffed over the years, and the enemies have been nerfed, to the point I feel like I am playing a kids story quest game on story mode. 

That's not exactly how I feel.

We have been buffed a lot. I've seen Xaku with some SP 4000+ level with mainly using GoL. The thing is... do we have to use that GoL to mindlessly kill enemies? No. I could use 1 + 2 to disarm enemies on low duration (because of nerf...). It's not everyone's thing but my point is that we don't have to use every possible thing in game (and we don't have to "nerf" ourselves).

On other hand HP/Armor/Shield nerf is good thing. What's the point of killing bullet sponge? I would rather have smarter enemy than having to hit N times. We still have some enemies like this (e.g. Orb mother).

 

I'm not using all available stuffs and I can still have game be pretty challenging sometimes (e.g. Arbis with Nataruk or Liches at some higher level). I'm not hardcore player but I don't see "health" as difficulty.

1 hour ago, Astorias1998 said:

I am going to be honest. 
     I think you are wrong, Op. Warframe has been consistantly one of the more fun games to play, to the point that it's amout of content, and sistems, and variety in both atmosphere and missions keep me engaged.  To the point in wich Now days I play more warframe than WoW, and I used to be a hardcore wow fan. 

Yeah. They game us Vermisplicer secondary that could hold to enemies (with some hook) and damage them. Up to 3 or 5 enemies.

Ups... it doesn't work.

People like you can enjoy a lot of simple stuffs. Nothing wrong in enjoying stuffs. It's just seeing your comment and content they give us... is like seeing 2 different stuffs.

 

 

[BahamutKaiser]

This is a myopic diatribe, completely overlooking all the advancements added to the game and improvements. Fixing bugs isn't an exclusive priority, a live service needs new content all the time. Bugs are going to happen, and delays are an industry universal, not an exception. 

Melee is still so powerful that any melee weapon can kill any target it can reach at any point in the game. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's bad, that's just your stubbornness on display. Damage types could be designed more interestingly, but there's no need to dwell on old methods when the new methods are superior. I mean, seriously, Glaives are tremendously superior to their former power, and they deserved a nerf just like melee as a whole, grasping at lost methods like you actually needed them demonstrates bad judgements.

Complaining about something doesn't make it relevant, you can cry up and down about bugs, but it's hyperbole until you show figures proving your point, I can anecdotally say few bugs plague my gameplay, so unless you got something better than your aggravation to validate your complaint, it's pretty trivial.

Beyond all that, Corrosive and Gas are still very effective with certain builds, there are several ways to apply status outside your weapons allowing many alternatives to be used, and Gas is devastating when used well. You should investigate the current methods instead of living in the past with old builds that are to precious for you to change.

The game is doing an incredible job remaining relevant with such an old title, leaving behind stubborn ppl isn't a high cost in doing so. If the game fails to be entertaining to you anymore, that doesn't mean it's bad, live services change, and sometimes that leave behind audiences, but that's not the only metric of success.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

to be fair, a pandemic and having to focus on the New War quest did put the kibosh on everything else, and DE have always been reluctant to do reworks of core systems. I definitely want to see the other damage types like Blast buffed though: warframe has to be the only game I know of where explosives make you LESS powerful lol. 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

 

there's no consensus community wide. there's plenty of people that still demand zero nerfs, all buffs. game must be easier. 

 

When I spoke about the eradication of Nuke frames people threw stones, chairs, rocks, bats, sticks even shoes. When I spoke about the reduction of AoE and favor of single shot enemy take down people ignored me completely. 

I want to put EXESSIVE ATTENTION OVER THIS CLEAN SENTENCE RIGHT HERE because it depicts the real problem, that is, the lack of consensus. 

Do we want a VANITY PROJECT WHERE WE are celestials/eternals or do we want a game that challenge our skills and intuitions as gamers? 

 

WE NEED TO MAKE A CHOICE. Can we have both? NO. WE must put priorities first. Then we deal with the amenities. 

 

[Mints]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Or how about melee weapons? The list of nerfs they received is near endless. Momentum (knockdown resistance) deleted. Opening enemies to finishers deleted. Attack speed reduced. Damage reduced like 3 times already. Meta mods effectively deleted. Many forced procs deleted. Many good stances deleted and replaced with worse ones. Line of sight check added. Range reduced.

It doesn't feel fun anymore, being locked into slow and awkward animations for no payoff. Just use an explosive weapon - no animation lock, far greater range and kills through walls.

And, again, during all this time that melee got nerfed again and again and again, did DE even fix any bugs it had? Any at all? Because there are a lot (and I mean A LOT) that I remember from 1 or 2 years back, that are STILL there. Condition Overload, it got nerfed, but it's still bugged. Glaives, got nerfed, but are still bugged. You still can't heavy attack while wielding a gun (you could for a while, but it was horribly bugged - so DE deleted the feature instead of fixing the bug).

I am getting pretty salty about the state of melee to be honest. Used to be I could outpace and out-damage Saryn Primes in ESO, 100+ Kuva missions, and Steel Path as pretty much any Warframe. Now I often deal lower damage even if I'm moving full throttle as Volt destroying everything I touch. Any content below level 100 I am easily outdamaged by AoE weapons, especially Kuva explosives, by people who are putting in half as much effort. We get told they're "bringing melee weapons in line with ranged weapons" but the ranged weapons explode the whole room whereas I have to path and maneuver within 4-6 meters of every enemy I want to kill.

Assuming they're all doing equal damage: It's impossible for melee to outpace AoE ranged weapons and powers, so why exactly does melee need to be nerfed? People complain on the forums about "beyblading" because they think melee consists of nothing but spin attacking and nothing else. DE, for some reason, listens to them and not people who actually use melee.

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, Mints said:

I am getting pretty salty about the state of melee to be honest. Used to be I could outpace and out-damage Saryn Primes in ESO, 100+ Kuva missions, and Steel Path as pretty much any Warframe. Now I often deal lower damage even if I'm moving full throttle as Volt destroying everything I touch. Any content below level 100 I am easily outdamaged by AoE weapons, especially Kuva explosives, by people who are putting in half as much effort. We get told they're "bringing melee weapons in line with ranged weapons" but the ranged weapons explode the whole room whereas I have to path and maneuver within 4-6 meters of every enemy I want to kill.

Assuming they're all doing equal damage: It's impossible for melee to outpace AoE ranged weapons and powers, so why exactly does melee need to be nerfed? People complain on the forums about "beyblading" because they think melee consists of nothing but spin attacking and nothing else. DE, for some reason, listens to them and not people who actually use melee.

 

You are telling me that a sword or a knife cuts 30,000 enemies up to level 9999 for 12 hours but a Larkspur with eight formas and riven can only reach level 200 in kill efficiency for one hour in steel path? 

 

 Of course AoE must affect US too with self damage. That will make many AoE whores think twice when they spam their weapons and powers. Self damage needs to return. Sorry but a knife can only reach a limit and that limit should be less than the capacity of a Beam WEAPON or a rail gun. 

 

I think DE must start reasoning their game from a COMMON SENSE point of view. 

 

 

[cute_moth.npc]

27 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

WE NEED TO MAKE A CHOICE. Can we have both? NO. WE must put priorities first. Then we deal with the amenities.

Actually I'd sort of argue that you have to have both if you want your game to really thrive in most cases, excepting outliers like Dark Souls and Animal Crossing that cater to a very specific experience. Warframe by our own experiences is not like that. There's a crowd of players who want to just have the easiest missions possible, play their nuke frames and faceroll it, they enjoy it and the feeling of power is what they're after. There's also a crowd that wants the high energy movement, modding depth and gameplay choices to mesh with gameplay that engages them and they don't find the game engaging enough.

You're not going to ever get consensus on a "choice" in a game like this - look at the forums every day with how people squabble for / against power, how some players find the new spoiler bosses far too difficult while others think they're below average in difficulty? Some players *hate* New War, others thought it was the best.

Other games that are really thriving and serve different player bases like FFXIV and Doom have one really big difference - they offer multiple difficulty levels and ways for players to engage in the game in different ways, and they can do that because the environment and design was cultivated in such a way that it would feel great to play whether you were playing at story level or on a Savage difficulty.

The problem is, we're way beyond that in Warframe. A lot of the design decisions that have been made were done without much consideration as to how it would shape the game in the future. When just one example of the ways you've chosen to make the game easier is "lock them in place completely in an area the player can mod to be large enough to literally lockdown opponents before they're even in engagement range" you aren't building a healthy game environment. Choosing to allow the player to wildly negate gameplay isn't a good way to reduce difficulty versus offering a reduced enemy power in a different mode, because it translates over to whatever mode you design unless you're actively restricting that, and in examples like Arbitrations where they did make an attempt to do so, there were other unchecked player options that nullified the design anyways.

Some of the design decisions to fix things by going down the lazy path are also to blame - fixing many weapons struggling to complete Steel Path vs. vastly increase the power of guns as a whole with Galvs and Arcanes all at once?! They chose the easy route. It meant that the power creep brought to the normal star chart was overwhelming and all of the intended "difficult" game modes like Arbitrations and Sorties dropped them from "very easy" to "into the dirt" and solidified the AoE meta like reinforced concrete ^^;

Warframe has literally designed itself into a corner, but if it ever wants to break out of the stagnation that it has been facing then I think it's possible to try.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, Twin_Fawn said:

Actually I'd sort of argue that you have to have both if you want your game to really thrive in most cases, excepting outliers like Dark Souls and Animal Crossing that cater to a very specific experience. Warframe by our own experiences is not like that. There's a crowd of players who want to just have the easiest missions possible, play their nuke frames and faceroll it, they enjoy it and the feeling of power is what they're after. There's also a crowd that wants the high energy movement, modding depth and gameplay choices to mesh with gameplay that engages them and they don't find the game engaging enough.

You're not going to ever get consensus on a "choice" in a game like this - look at the forums every day with how people squabble for / against power, how some players find the new spoiler bosses far too difficult while others think they're below average in difficulty? Some players *hate* New War, others thought it was the best.

Other games that are really thriving and serve different player bases like FFXIV and Doom have one really big difference - they offer multiple difficulty levels and ways for players to engage in the game in different ways, and they can do that because the environment and design was cultivated in such a way that it would feel great to play whether you were playing at story level or on a Savage difficulty.

The problem is, we're way beyond that in Warframe. A lot of the design decisions that have been made were done without much consideration as to how it would shape the game in the future. When just one example of the ways you've chosen to make the game easier is "lock them in place completely in an area the player can mod to be large enough to literally lockdown opponents before they're even in engagement range" you aren't building a healthy game environment. Choosing to allow the player to wildly negate gameplay isn't a good way to reduce difficulty versus offering a reduced enemy power in a different mode, because it translates over to whatever mode you design unless you're actively restricting that, and in examples like Arbitrations where they did make an attempt to do so, there were other unchecked player options that nullified the design anyways.

Some of the design decisions to fix things by going down the lazy path are also to blame - fixing many weapons struggling to complete Steel Path vs. vastly increase the power of guns as a whole with Galvs and Arcanes all at once?! They chose the easy route. It meant that the power creep brought to the normal star chart was overwhelming and all of the intended "difficult" game modes like Arbitrations and Sorties dropped them from "very easy" to "into the dirt" and solidified the AoE meta like reinforced concrete ^^;

Warframe has literally designed itself into a corner, but if it ever wants to break out of the stagnation that it has been facing then I think it's possible to try.

 

Wait, hold it. YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT FOR TEN MF YEARS DE FORGOT TO PUT clean DIFFICULTY SETTINGS?!!!

You know those named: easy, medium, hard, expert, elite, uncanny, for example?

 

Oh wow, they never saw this coming? Isn't this elementary 101 stuff in game design? But how come that these are the same developers who SOLVED EXACTLY THIS for 16 years in Unreal Tournament series. What happened here? 

 

You see THIS IS THE VERY BASICS...

 

It scares me to no end that NOW we begin talking about THIS, after TEN MF YEARS.....

 

.....loooord......

 

[SDGDen]

11 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Wait, hold it. YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT FOR TEN MF YEARS DE FORGOT TO PUT clean DIFFICULTY SETTINGS?!!!

in a game like this, difficulty settings are GENERALLY very unusual.

instead, different content has different difficulties.

taking destiny 2 for example. 

ya have your "just walking around the patrol destinations" which i'd say is very easy and casual
then you have strikes, which are repeatable missions you do with 2 others, these are slightly harder
then you have dungeons, which don't have matchmaking and require teamwork, these are even harder
then you have raids, which dont have matchmaking, usually need 6 people (although in most cases you can make it with 4 or 5, 3 if you're a megachad), and they require stricter teamwork. thus being harder than dungeons
then you have master VOG, which is really #*!%in hard. 

on top of that there's also nightfall strikes which have difficulty tiers with each tier having better/more rewards in exchange for adding more modifiers and increasing the difficulty (with grandmasters just straight up making you deal 1/3rd damage and take 3x damage due to light-level disadvantage as well as kicking you to orbit if your entire team of 3 people is dead)

there's no difficulty settings for most pieces of content, but there's easier and harder content via a difficulty scale, this means that there's selectable difficulty in the game, but the game also rewards you for doing harder content. which gives players a goal to work towards (gitting gud enough to play the harder content)

of course, this isn't without flaws. there will always be players that complain about a piece of loot being locked behind something that's "too hard to do" for them (master VOG has "timelost" variants of the regular VOG weapons, they're basically just a shiny version of the same gun with some alternative selectable perks (not more, you can just swap the gun between perk A and B whenever you want in the menu) and on release, people went ballistic over it because the raid was "too hard" for them.)

there's also the complaint of "I don't want to do easy content over and over again" since obviously, some loot may be locked behind easier things. 


warframe KINDA has this already.

starchart is a form of natural difficulty progression, with fissure tiers building on that (and each having their own loot), requiem fissures are obviously supposed to be "harder" or "more endgame" content, same for arbitrations and sorties. not to mention steel path is supposedly the "aspirational challenge" mode, the one where you have to pull out all the stops in order to beat it. 

problem is... with the current meta, everything is easy! its all easy. so those difficulty differences do not even matter. 

[Felsagger]

3 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... I warned people... Got ignored... People got what I warned them about... People complain about it...

 

... Yep, Universe is still aligned.

Correct. 

I don't want to have mental seizures now but I'm deeply perplexed that the community is THIS divided. 

 

Let us start with HONESTY for OURSELVES. 

 

Difficulty settings can't be blend in a continuum with progression of shield, armor and health. Or simply increase the aim bot accuracy of the enemy or making them aware of your position at the second you hit the map. That is an oversimplification. 

Wen I talk about clean difficulty settings I talk about ENEMY DIFFERENCE. You remember when people say "REINHARDT DIFFERENCE" in Overwatch? Do you know what they are talking about in the strict sense? PERFORMANCE. 

I am not a game designer but in every game I've seen difficulty settings where there are clean parameters where differences are notable. Warframe tries to mimic difficulty adaptability when warframes are simply CELESTIALS/Eternals in the first place. 

The WHOLE game needs a simple classification, redistribution and enemy behavior since all the assets are already made. DE needs to NOT be afraid challenging the avid player. There are players that WANTS TO KNOW DEFEAT. There are players that wants to know their limits and where they are at. Gradient difficulty settings doesn't work when even there is NO logic of weapon damage hierarchy and many elements like GAS and BLAST are thrown into the recycle bin. 

DE, WE WANT A GAME. Can DE turn Warframe into a Game adding a believable sense of progression where AoE is reduced, Nuke frames are terminated and weapon damage hierarchy is strictly defined on a logical basis? Am I asking too much? 

 

 

 

[cute_moth.npc]

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

DE, WE WANT A GAME. Can DE turn Warframe into a Game adding a believable sense of progression where AoE is reduced, Nuke frames are terminated and weapon damage hierarchy is strictly defined on a logical basis? Am I asking too much? 

I think so, because nuke frames are also a part of someone else's favorite part about the game.

If you did that, you'd be trading which of the groups was happy instead of making them both happy.

[Felsagger]

56 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

taking destiny 2 for example. 

ya have your "just walking around the patrol destinations" which i'd say is very easy and casual
then you have strikes, which are repeatable missions you do with 2 others, these are slightly harder
then you have dungeons, which don't have matchmaking and require teamwork, these are even harder
then you have raids, which dont have matchmaking, usually need 6 people (although in most cases you can make it with 4 or 5, 3 if you're a megachad), and they require stricter teamwork. thus being harder than dungeons
then you have master VOG, which is really #*!%in hard. 

on top of that there's also nightfall strikes which have difficulty tiers with each tier having better/more rewards in exchange for adding more modifiers and increasing the difficulty (with grandmasters just straight up making you deal 1/3rd damage and take 3x damage due to light-level disadvantage as well as kicking you to orbit if your entire team of 3 people is dead)

there's no difficulty settings for most pieces of content, but there's easier and harder content via a difficulty scale, this means that there's selectable difficulty in the game, but the game also rewards you for doing harder content. which gives players a goal to work towards (gitting gud enough to play the harder content)

of course, this isn't without flaws. there will always be players that complain about a piece of loot being locked behind something that's "too hard to do" for them (master VOG has "timelost" variants of the regular VOG weapons, they're basically just a shiny version of the same gun with some alternative selectable perks (not more, you can just swap the gun between perk A and B whenever you want in the menu) and on release, people went ballistic over it because the raid was "too hard" for them.)

there's also the complaint of "I don't want to do easy content over and over again" since obviously, some loot may be locked behind easier things. 


warframe KINDA has this already.

starchart is a form of natural difficulty progression, with fissure tiers building on that (and each having their own loot), requiem fissures are obviously supposed to be "harder" or "more endgame" content, same for arbitrations and sorties. not to mention steel path is supposedly the "aspirational challenge" mode, the one where you have to pull out all the stops in order to beat it. 

problem is... with the current meta, everything is easy! its all easy. so those difficulty differences do not even matter. 

Agreed with the rest of this post. Well said. 

Let us focus on the part that gets deeply intriguing. The first two sentences of your post. 

56 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

in a game like this, difficulty settings are GENERALLY very unusual.

instead, different content has different difficulties.

 

You LITERALLY SOLVED THE PROBLEM RIGHT HERE. 

Moreover, this IS a logical solution of the problem. 

I can write a text wall that will make Wally looks good. Do you know who will defeat this solution? Us. We will divide ourselves throwing shades to veterans. We will use names like elite arrogant players. We will tell DE that we want a game EQUAL TO EVERY TYPE OF PLAYER WITHOUT THE DISTINCTION OF Mastery Rank and EXPERIENCE. 

I will keep it simple. This is a compromise that we have to do. Not everybody should be treated the same because there are differences. An expert is not the same as a new recruit. EGALITARIANISM is the first enemy that destroys games. 

[Drasiel]

I can't help but wonder as I watch the back and forth about difficulty if a lot of reason why there's such a huge gap between what people consider difficult and easy in the game comes down to modding plain and simple. If you are more casual you often have less play time meaning less mods, endo, and credits, which all compound on each other to make you significantly weaker. Is it simply that the more casuals have less time to invest in the needed equipment and so what many consider easy isn't because of numerical differences?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

15 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I can't help but wonder as I watch the back and forth about difficulty if a lot of reason why there's such a huge gap between what people consider difficult and easy in the game comes down to modding plain and simple. If you are more casual you often have less play time meaning less mods, endo, and credits, which all compound on each other to make you significantly weaker. Is it simply that the more casuals have less time to invest in the needed equipment and so what many consider easy isn't because of numerical differences?

Mods compound each other. Whenever you reach a damage roadblock early game, it is surmounted by unlocking the next damage multiplier. 

Damage multi-shot Crits Status etc

In the end we unlock so many damage multipliers that DE has to arbitrarily take them away or introduce damage dividers.

Immunity Attenuation Caps Armor etc

End result of mathematical gymnastics is that everything is exclusively either paper or sponges for both enemies and Warframe's. It only compounds issues for matchmaking where no one is in the same zip code for numbers.

It's a scaling mess that even DE gave up on considering how they approached the New War where loadouts were fixed.

 

 

[Felsagger]

27 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

 End result of mathematical gymnastics is that everything is exclusively either paper or sponges for both enemies and Warframe's.

It's a scaling mess that even DE gave up on considering how they approached the New War where loadouts were fixed.

Correct. 

It doesn't matter how complex is the pivot table in their excel. 

It doesn't matter if they use ANOVA Analysis of Variance table. 

It doesn't matter if they understand statistical distributions well. 

 

None of that is useful if DE doesn't know where they want to row. We return to the basic problem of MANAGEMENT of their HUMAN RESOURCES for the design of their game. What are their concrete goals for the game? Make money? That's easy? Everybody does that. Every known developer does that. Even EA makes money publishing excrement.

The problem is that with few variables the thing could be solved. But a game with some many variables there will be conflicts. The game grew and growth requires a lot of personnel and work divisions plus intercommunication between departments. It is expected. Even great developers still struggles with a moderate number of variables. 

We must select a path and stick with that path as a community. Warframe's developers must get rid of the AoE problem, the power creeping problem, the riven problem, the egalitarianism of players and that vision of eternal/ celestial approach to gaming. 

We want a game where we test our tools and find situations that our tools are needed. We have a full wall of redundant weapons and endless lists of Warframes where there is no playground for them that tests their uniqueness. 

 

[TheArmchairThinker]

10 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Take for example status types - in the past we used Slash, Viral, Corrosive, Blast, Gas, sometimes Cold, Radiation or Toxin.

Slash, Corrosive, Blast, Gas, Cold, and Toxin have all been nerfed heavily. Heat and Viral have been buffed. As a direct consequence, Blast, Gas and Cold are no longer used, and Corrosive only at low levels. Instead we use Heat, but mostly only at low levels as well. A net -3 to variety.

I don't see how this made anything better. I liked using Blast for CC, Cold for increasing status duration, and Gas for damage.

And why does this happen if not because "we want challenge"? And I'd say slash is still untouched and should be changed to be more effective against bare flesh and no longer bypassing armor with true damage (true damage that can't bypass shield? That's not true damage)

Corrosive itself is overly strong where you can just spam it and grineer becomes shooting target so if we want to say, by nerfing corrosive this makes armor still able to protect, not outright remove all armor and make anything "squishy"

Blast? I'm sure I saw someone saying blast old status effect was annoying because it ruins aiming from knockdown. If blast gives area debuff on enemy accuracy it would be more useful, or just stagger them instead of knockdown

Gas? Seeing how it becomes way too effective against corpus, I'd say gas being an anti infested fits more than spamming toxin gas everywhere, making gas unnecessary and you can combine it with electricity to lock them down with 2 damage instances

Cold? With up to 75% slow, it's a nice alternative to slow from warframe abilities

Viral though, shouldn't reach that much of damage increase. 50% is more reasonable

Heat should only ramp up in damage, not stripping armor

10 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Or how about melee weapons? The list of nerfs they received is near endless. Momentum (knockdown resistance) deleted. Opening enemies to finishers deleted. Attack speed reduced. Damage reduced like 3 times already. Meta mods effectively deleted. Many forced procs deleted. Many good stances deleted and replaced with worse ones. Line of sight check added. Range reduced.

Because melee is overused and "there's no challenge" in it? Well, no choice but to suck it up

10 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

It doesn't feel fun anymore, being locked into slow and awkward animations for no payoff. Just use an explosive weapon - no animation lock, far greater range and kills through walls.

Time to give LoS on explosive weapons then, no more killing from behind walls

[TheArmchairThinker]

9 hours ago, Oreades said:

I think the problem stems from the fact that they know the game needs some serious rebalancing but instead of doing that they kick the can down the road by blanket removing players abilities and scooping out more and more of what makes Warframe Warframe. Then replacing that with poor semblances of other games, ignoring why people show up to play Warframe in the first place. 

And what makes people show up to play warframe in the first place? Serious rebalancing means many things, including nerfs that take away players abilities and scooping out more of whatever you say that makes Warframe Warframe

[TheArmchairThinker]

8 hours ago, (PSN)NewYorkGameflow said:

Nerfs. I've never played a pve game that goes so hard on nerfs

Eh, bungie nerfs nearly everything fun in destiny. Take a look at their forum

[TheArmchairThinker]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

somehow we manage to get some fun out of it when some missions are difficult or challenging for even odd reasons. 

Difficult or challenging is purely numerical

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

a game with some many variables there will be conflicts

A massive blanket nerf can help, smaller variables means more manageable. A massive nerf to CC to be a different flavor or slow, stun or root with very short duration (<3 seconds) means enemies have chance to fight back. Hek, even maybe this kind of change

In the end, the so-called "difficult" and "challenging" ends with pitting you against enemies stronger than you and imposed limits to make it "harder"

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, Astorias1998 said:

I am going to be honest. 
     I think you are wrong, Op. Warframe has been consistantly one of the more fun games to play, to the point that it's amout of content, and sistems, and variety in both atmosphere and missions keep me engaged.  To the point in wich Now days I play more warframe than WoW, and I used to be a hardcore wow fan. 

I always feel that there's always something to do in game, that all things you collect matters.  But, for me the thing that I, and many others fell is that the predominance of BIG aoe wepons with the same Hunter Mminitions + viral Meta, is lame and boring. And Could hurt the gun variety of the game. 

I am not fan of AOE spam,  it would be cool if could get a buff to other tipes of damage, to make more builds viable for Steel path. 

I am glad that we have seen a lot of nerfs in things that are dominant, that way it encourages people to change builds from time to time and prevents stagnation, many people would say: "Why did DE dosen't make the other mods equally as good instead of nerfing de "GOOD ONES"" But some modes just by how they work are incredibly and so utterly broken that that isn't possible, and I prefer that they take some meassures to prevent power creep. 

And you can actually cancel melee animation by rolling, it was part of the melee revamp a few years a go.  As far as the other bugs of glaives and Heavy attack that dosen't hit... I haven encoutered any.  I always find melee too powerful anyway, and now with the recent adition for guns I find myself enjoy the game more, than just pressing "E" to win. Thankfully now I can use all my arsenal to win and play. 

I already don't play on public just because of my style of play dosen't align with the majority of Spamming Kuva bramma + Saryn every mission. ANd to be honest it would be cool to see more variety in weponry, But aoe by it's nature is too powerful.  

 

You raise good points here. For starters, I rarely experience the bugs others say they experience...not until I am in a pub match. DE can't fix someone's internet so, if the bugs are lag based then DE can't really fix that. Thankfully, ping settings usually can fix the majority of this issue.

Now, as a vet, I can completely understand the arguments regarding being overpowered, not strong enough for steel path, not good enough to beat the quest, can't handle Mot, steel path is too easy, etc etc etc. I've taken myself out of the debate STRICTLY BECAUSE I'M A VET. I've played this game for an ultra long time and there's no way in hell DE can ever find a big way for me to not be OP without taking away my massive arsenal of gear. I have the right tools for every single situation they can throw at me because they've spent almost a decade building, creating and throwing stuff at me while giving me almost a decade of powerful weaponry to fight back with. I'm supposed to be a mechanics master at this point!

That, I think, is a "non problem" problem. I get some players want to be challenged with their best gear but, for a game literally based on a power fantasy, 99.5% of the gear IS good gear and it's our own fault because we complain if it's not. To top things off, when more challenging gear does come along (Yureli, although she's actually a freakin monster tank and acolyte killer now that I understand her kit better), players scream at DE, call her trash and demand buffs. Same with Xaku, Caliban, guns, self damage, viral, heat and on and on. 

So, it's the same, draining questions again that players refuse to answer by a  majority: Should DE do what needs to be done and make the game more challenging? Can the players tolerate a two or three month bug cleaning sweep? Are players willing to have some gear and mods removed, allowing the actually tactical enemy factions to overwhelm you?

[TARINunit9]

12 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Take for example status types - in the past we used Slash, Viral, Corrosive, Blast, Gas, sometimes Cold, Radiation or Toxin.

We NEVER used Blast or Gas in the past. They were equally terrible before and after the mega-update (Gas was just terrible in different ways before and after)

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Difficult or challenging is purely numerical

Parameters are variables. Yes, no novelty here.

But difficulty is more than that. Difficulty is memory too, quick reaction on tight situations, judgment and decision making on uncomfortable conditions. 

Position, preservation, priority and preference. Those are the elements of difficulty in any game. 

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

A massive blanket nerf can help, smaller variables means more manageable. A massive nerf to CC to be a different flavor or slow, stun or root with very short duration (<3 seconds) means enemies have chance to fight back. Hek, even maybe this kind of change

Enemies must FIGHT back otherwise there will be NO challenge at all other than a screen saver emitting endless radiation due to special effects on screen. 

Yes, enemies should have powerful weapons, limb damage similar to Horizon Zero Dawn, enemies should work in teams protecting each other. Imagine how annoying is a Bastion being protected by Orisa and pocketed by Mercy. 

Howe dangerous is an accurate Kefrii's Widow Maker with a powerful rail sniper cannon protected by a Winston and Lucio. These are components of difficulty that must happens within the enemy. Enemies should have artillery and backup from heavy units. Look for example Titan Fall 2. 

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

In the end, the so-called "difficult" and "challenging" ends with pitting you against enemies stronger than you and imposed limits to make it "harder"

 

THAT'S THE IDEA. We, the Tenno/Drifter are not Celestials or Eternals. We can get our ass split at any given moment when the enemies are greater in number,  has better fire power, have a high damage per second weapons and have Area of EFFECT weapons. We must get a taste of our own medicine. The enemy should stun and stagger us more aggressively but with a faster knockback response. 

What we have now are a lot of Roadhogs hooking frames. Those numb scorpions that pulls us forward are supper annoying because the animation after the knockdown is super slow. Warframe should recoup and probably parry that FAST. Even master chief can parry grenades and hooks with his repulse wave push but he can get damaged or even get his ass beat. The Tenno has lived a dream of winning all the time. He must get his ass beat and learn that every fight is a risk. 

 

Players in this game has been pampered and cuddled way too much. They need a dosage of their own medicine.  Tenno must learn how such beating tastes. 

[Felsagger]

Let ME answer your questions. 

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

 

Should DE do what needs to be done and make the game more challenging?

 

YES. THEY MUST. 

WE want to know defeat. 

WE want to have a good worthy challenge that makes us sweat. 

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

 

Can the players tolerate a two or three month bug cleaning sweep?

I can tolerate SIX MONTHS or even a year if the game improves in graphics, performance and quality. 

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Are players willing to have some gear and mods removed, allowing the actually tactical enemy factions to overwhelm you?

 

Why not make enemies challenging. Gear and mods can be modified on certain missions or for some type of games mods and gear could be completely removed. The quest did that. It worked fine for me.