Raids were very toxic, and should not be brought back even if the idea of them is popular

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

people like the IDEA of raids, but LoR wasnt great. Personally, i think a dual railjack crew raid mission with each crew completing objectives simultaneously could be a good starting point for raid like content. 

Scarlet Spear taught us that Railjack is unstable at best and would even more of a mess than The Jordas Verdict ever was.

[0_The_F00l]

I joined the game a few years before they removed raids , 

I never bothered with them that much cause it required a lot of prep , co ordination , awareness and hoping there are no bugs. And i didn't have that many friends back then to enjoy it with.

Maybe LOR was ok , played it a few times through recruit, but JV was really something I didn't like and completely avoided. 

For me the rewards weren't worth the headache.

I only played it near the end to get those sweet emblems and was smart enough to use the raid bus for joining a relatively friendly group.

I still want raids back cause it was something for people to enjoy with friends and get challenged. And i am hoping it will be a bit better than before , time will tell i guess.

I have no doubt there will be toxicity , the current Eidolon hunts are proof of that. And i don't bother with those either (cause of multiple reasons) But you can't really stop something because people are gonna be $&*^s , people are gonna be $&*^s either way.

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I get what you are saying, I think. 

One thing people forget (heck some weren't even around for it) is that they were already trying to make it at least somewhat difficult to jump into a LOR or JV with a bunch of rando's. You had to have a key, and manually invite people using recruit chat. 

And I believe you only got one run a day. So people were a lot more careful setting up.

You can run eidolons and profit taker all you want all day long, and there is an option where you can join total randoms and just pop in together, and imo that may not be a great idea. 

I understand some people want everything pubbable and that used to be me, but I am not sure everything works as a pub without an unreasonable amount of chaos. 

Just Teralyst or PT with rando's is one thing, but doing say the entire lot of eidolons, now that is a different story. Lot's that can go wrong along the way from the pure chaos of random people. 

 

1 hour ago, Darkduprey said:

If I were the one to design them they would not exist, because I do not think such content should be allowed for non pre-made group at all.

I agree that this shouldn't be public territory, but if Tridolons are public... Then everything can happen.

[TheRealDestian]

If they want to have raids, just do what FFXIV does with its Ultimate raids and have it drop untradable cosmetics only.

That way, it's purely for prestige purposes and can't be used for anything like RMT.

[----Legacy----]

25 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said:

If they want to have raids, just do what FFXIV does with its Ultimate raids and have it drop untradable cosmetics only.

That way, it's purely for prestige purposes and can't be used for anything like RMT.

DE already tried that approach once and it ended up making community growth hard to sustain in the long term.

Players who engage with the content right away get the rewards quickly since everyone is playing the newest thing, if there are no rewards worth comimg back, a lot of players simply won't bother to come back after obtaining these prestige items.

People who joins late to the party ends up having a harder time finding players to play the content, some people who never wanted to bother with trials (usually the anti challenge crowd) start mudflinging at trials and its players while telling everyone that these are awful, that the content is a slog and that its rewards aren't worth it and should be available somewhere else and yadda yadda.

I didn't like trials back in the day and may not engage with the new ones, but as someone who loves conclave more than anything else in the game, i'd despise to see trials added back only to end up following the same way as conclave that made it end up as the most isolated content island in the whole game. 

[Yamazuki]

36 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

DE already tried that approach once and it ended up making community growth hard to sustain in the long term.

Players who engage with the content right away get the rewards quickly since everyone is playing the newest thing, if there are no rewards worth comimg back, a lot of players simply won't bother to come back after obtaining these prestige items.

People who joins late to the party ends up having a harder time finding players to play the content, some people who never wanted to bother with trials (usually the anti challenge crowd) start mudflinging at trials and its players while telling everyone that these are awful, that the content is a slog and that its rewards aren't worth it and should be available somewhere else and yadda yadda.

I didn't like trials back in the day and may not engage with the new ones, but as someone who loves conclave more than anything else in the game, i'd despise to see trials added back only to end up following the same way as conclave that made it end up as the most isolated content island in the whole game. 

If the content type is unpopular, then it won't really matter what the rewards are unless it is insanely high. I've played plenty of games with their variant of raids, and even when the BiS equipment can only be earned from raids, and not even traded, the overwhelming majority of people refused to participate with it just being free wealth for the minority by selling runs to whales.

Just look at how unpopular SP, Eidolons, and the like ended up, and these aren't even content types that hard-require a large group of people to not mess up. Raids are either going to be annoying, or braindead easy with the inconvenience of needing x amount of people.

I would prefer difficult non-raid content that actually involve combat. I don't consider the inconvenience of group size to be a valid form of difficulty.

[Zekkii]

The most telling part is that only 20% of the survey responders thought enemies in raids should start at Steel Path level, narrowly beating Star Chart. Even though people want raids, they don't want them to be challenging. 

[Lutesque]

21 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said:

 

If they are going to be brought back there will inevitably be some unique and valuable loot that cannot be acquired any other way.

Combine this with Dependency on Team Mates and yeah... Guaranteed Toxicity.... Still Happens in Eidolon Hunts....

20 hours ago, (PSN)Viveeeh said:

If they bring back raids, do not play them if you do not like them. If DE puts some loot you really want behind them, just farm stuff, sell it, and buy the raid loot with plat. Why shouldn't raids brought back if the majority wants them back? I don't like doing Tridolons, but you don't see me go around shouting about Tridolons should be removed from the game.

That's because I'm doing that Already so that you don't have to.... You're Welcome.... 😉

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

I have no doubt there will be toxicity , the current Eidolon hunts are proof of that. And i don't bother with those either (cause of multiple reasons) But you can't really stop something because people are gonna be $&*^s , people are gonna be $&*^s either way.

That sounds like a Defeatist's Argument....

In Any Case just because people suck doesn't mean this isn't a Design Issue....

To Quote something from the Greatest Man Who is Still Alive Today:

"You have to design around how people are... Not how you want them to be" - Don Norman.

In this case OP is right.... 

Exclusive Rewards + Dependency on Team Mates = Toxicity....  Any game mode that's like this has always been this way.... Its why everybody complained about the Nightwave Challenge that asked to do Profit Taker with a Friend or Clan Mate....

I like playing with other people but I hate forced Co-Operation..... 

Actually I hate Forced Anything, 

What was I saying before I started Rambling ?

Ah yes right.... The Design needs to Account for $##& Player Behavior.... Ignoring Players might be ass holes is just going to create "Eidolon Hunts Part 2: Yo Mamma Edition"

53 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

The most telling part is that only 20% of the survey responders thought enemies in raids should start at Steel Path level, narrowly beating Star Chart. Even though people want raids, they don't want them to be challenging. 

Thanks for Reminding... I need to go Check That Out... 👀

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

That sounds like a Defeatist's Argument....

In Any Case just because people suck doesn't mean this isn't a Design Issue....

To Quote something from the Greatest Man Who is Still Alive Today:

"You have to design around how people are... Not how you want them to be" - Don Norman.

In this case OP is right.... 

Exclusive Rewards + Dependency on Team Mates = Toxicity....  Any game mode that's like this has always been this way.... Its why everybody complained about the Nightwave Challenge that asked to do Profit Taker with a Friend or Clan Mate....

I like playing with other people but I hate forced Co-Operation..... 

Actually I hate Forced Anything, 

What was I saying before I started Rambling ?

Ah yes right.... The Design needs to Account for $##& Player Behavior.... Ignoring Players might be ass holes is just going to create "Eidolon Hunts Part 2: Yo Mamma Edition"

You seem to have misunderstood or simply didnt read the whole post , especially confusing defeatist with pragmatist, which is understandable in your case.

In this particular topic the OP is not advocating for design checks or better user experience that Norman promotes , he is advocating for complete access denial to everyone just because he himself does not like it and is either incapable or unwilling to handle it via other means , which is what i have problems with.

That is the equivalent of saying , "nobody gets cake cause i am diabetic." , it sounds like the tantrums of a petulant child.

 

Also to highlight,

You cannot build for idiocy or toxicity while also allowing for freedom of choice and speech,

Unless you want to limit the game to canned chat with extremely linear game play , which might as well be solo.

we already have an annoyingly zealot chat moderation which is still easily bypassed by clever text play.

There can definitely be ways to control or mitigate this behaviour but what the OP suggests is not it.

 

And since you feel the need to quote the father of UX , perhaps you can give some advice on how you would design some checks to avoid such behaviors and experiences?

[----Legacy----]

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

If the content type is unpopular, then it won't really matter what the rewards are unless it is insanely high. I've played plenty of games with their variant of raids, and even when the BiS equipment can only be earned from raids, and not even traded, the overwhelming majority of people refused to participate with it just being free wealth for the minority by selling runs to whales.

Just look at how unpopular SP, Eidolons, and the like ended up, and these aren't even content types that hard-require a large group of people to not mess up. Raids are either going to be annoying, or braindead easy with the inconvenience of needing x amount of people.

I would prefer difficult non-raid content that actually involve combat. I don't consider the inconvenience of group size to be a valid form of difficulty.

That's what people usually say, yet in warframe, if the content requires paying attention to the game to be defeated AND offers no good rewards people tend to deem it as bad rather quickly since a widespread mindset seems to be that content without quality loot, good evergreen rewards or useful unique gear aren't worth being played since time spent on them is time that's not being spent doing something else with better rewards.

DE is to blame on this for constantly putting more emphasis on rewards than on gameplay itself, even though they are also the ones to blame for dumbing down gameplay to the point of warframe becoming a braindead game where failing a mission is probably a bigger challenge than completing them.

[ReddyDisco]

If raids get added, i doubt you wouldn't be able to solo them eventually. Eg eidolons, orb fights.

I'm optimistic to see what they come up with

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

14 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

If raids get added, i doubt you wouldn't be able to solo them eventually. Eg eidolons, orb fights.

I'm optimistic to see what they come up with

I mean, those don't have anything that even requires two people, just enough damage and speed from a single person.  All it would take to force multiple people to be needed for an activity is the addition of something where multiple things must be activated simultaneously.  Like the friendship doors, but without the solo exception.  Stick a few checkpoints in that require two or more people performing an action, and ensure that the next section won't trigger without the previous one (to prevent glitching out of the map past barriers), and boom.  No solo runs.  At least not without some serious glitching.

[Kontrollo]

Hot take:

Raids should be added back if only for the reason to have something that actually requires co-op again.

[ReddyDisco]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

I mean, those don't have anything that even requires two people, just enough damage and speed from a single person.  All it would take to force multiple people to be needed for an activity is the addition of something where multiple things must be activated simultaneously.  Like the friendship doors, but without the solo exception.  Stick a few checkpoints in that require two or more people performing an action, and ensure that the next section won't trigger without the previous one (to prevent glitching out of the map past barriers), and boom.  No solo runs.  At least not without some serious glitching.

Thanks for telling me Flash, don't break the timeline again

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, Darkduprey said:

Well as someone who cumulates 13k hours of gameplay in games with both PvP and raids pretty much evenly shared between the two activities, I can safely say that this sentence is either a troll of a fake from someone who tried two raids and three PvP matches in his gamer life.

Raids are something you are supposed to do with an organised group that you will play with for weeks, months, potentially even years.

If you find this group toxic and do not simply move to an other group (and there is a TON to choose from), you are the problem. Changing guild/clan/whatever in an MMO is never a problem.

I'm probably gonna sounds like a total jerk here but 13k hours is pocket lint if you wanna throw a number around to try and prove something, which is why I never did it and instead just said I've experienced raids since DaoC. If I were to put an hour number on each activity I'd likely end up at around 20k+ hours on each, then maybe 20k+ hours ontop of that on other things aswell, including less "hardcore" dedication to raids and PvP, and that is with me not actually accounting for my unhealthy amount of time spent per day in my younger years. Part of these raid and pvp activities were also combined into one in a couple of games, both with more or less PvE focus.

Changing guilds rarely helps since there are just too many people going through the content in most such games, so you will always end up with toxicity in some form. And it is also a big problem/not a solution to change guilds if there are other activities that the guild does well but suffers from toxicity in some other. Just the part of having to change a guild due to a specific mode is the very essence of toxic content. Plus I guess you've never heard of blacklists and other name/shame methods to keep "unwanted" players down outside of guilds they leave. Which was a very real thing, especially in WoW regarding raids. Didnt accept the "inner circle" loot distribution? Leave the guild and get bad mouthed by the same inner circle, ruining your rep in the new guild you find.

I guess you've also missed the gal that sold her body for phat lewt in WoW during uhm BC?

[Hypernaut1]

10 hours ago, Zekkii said:

The most telling part is that only 20% of the survey responders thought enemies in raids should start at Steel Path level, narrowly beating Star Chart. Even though people want raids, they don't want them to be challenging. 

Yeah, what was that about?  SP enemies don't even feel buffed anymore. I legit can't tell if I'm in a SP mission at times. TTK is almost at sortie levels now.

[Surbusken]

I mean you are free to disagree and bring up a counter point but don't come around town saying OP isn't make his point.

Elitism, raging and negativity from the exact place OP is pointing out, is like biblically certified. It could very well be the actual original meme of history, that's how certified it is.

 

Luckily for you, the developers know better than to add a kick function to the game.

 

... which isn't to say there aren't any number of middle of the road solutions, that raids could not work under any circumstance or using any gameplay rules.

Simply to say there is a whole bunch of people in here trying to be in denial about OP's point, which ironically speaks to his point.

How long until the negativity starts coming out and people start treating other players badly, well one post I guess?

So there you go

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Yeah, what was that about?  SP enemies don't even feel buffed anymore. I legit can't tell if I'm in a SP mission at times. TTK is almost at sortie levels now.

Unless you make the bold assumption that everyone is watching Dystopia on YouTube as their preferred Content Creator or asking extremely knowledgeable players about weapon modding, the average person is probably going to overlook a lot of math or some mechanical/multiplier functionality. Steel Path enemies weren't even that difficult to take down pre-Galvanized Mods. Those were added for the aforementioned players I described. I hope DE atleast understands that all the Raids they plan to work on don't have the same low level like a Sortie.

[Tesseract7777]

10 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Unless you make the bold assumption that everyone is watching Dystopia on YouTube as their preferred Content Creator or asking extremely knowledgeable players about weapon modding, the average person is probably going to overlook a lot of math or some mechanical/multiplier functionality. Steel Path enemies weren't even that difficult to take down pre-Galvanized Mods. Those were added for the aforementioned players I described. I hope DE atleast understands that all the Raids they plan to work on don't have the same low level like a Sortie.

To me the most disheartening part of that survey was how so many people didn't even want 100+ enemies with modifiers, or even 100+ enemies at all.

They wanted sortie level with no special conditions, starting at 50 and maxing out at 100. 

I really hope DE ignores those people. But I am afraid they will listen to them. 

How fun is a raid going to be if the toughest enemy at the very end reaches level 100 max with no special modifiers? 

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

To me the most disheartening part of that survey was how so many people didn't even want 100+ enemies with modifiers, or even 100+ enemies at all.

They wanted sortie level with no special conditions, starting at 50 and maxing out at 100. 

I really hope DE ignores those people. But I am afraid they will listen to them. 

How fun is a raid going to be if the toughest enemy at the very end reaches level 100 max with no special modifiers? 

Let's back up a bit. Before DE releases any sort of raid, they better consider addressing the elephant in the room of the damage system. Multipliers need to be squeezed for one, and Viral and Slash need to be nerfed as well. Viral should cap out at 200% health damage and Slash can't be allowed to bypass all armor. Make Gas competitive to Toxin as well. DE would either need to make enemies ludicrous levels or actually tune the game a bit better so you don't need to see an enemy with 4 digits to have a threat in a mission when you're geared.

But yes, I know what you mean and it really just ends up as a coin toss for us as to whether DE is designing something they want long-term players to engage in or something for the average joe who logs in once every few months for mainlines.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

I just want to say that I hate the typical gatekeeping in Raid/Trial content.

I barely got into any of the Raids in Warframe before some catastrophic failure splintered the group.  Barely had time to figure out what even went wrong to improve for a future attempt.

I played Destiny a good bit, and I'd often spend a lot of time getting into a group for its Raids.  None of Destiny's content was particularly difficult, but they were hellbent on not providing internal matchmaking or even in-game lobbies.

I still haven't touched any trials in Elder Scrolls Online.  They provide matchmaking for the Dungeons, and some of those can be really tough, but they're also provided in different difficulty levels.  It's weird that Trials don't get a similar treatment.

And this seems to be the standard in the game design for Raid/Trial content: some romanticized but impractical idea of cooperation turning into gatekeeping content to only the players that are socially networking within the game, clans, et cetera, as if any of the content created is of such difficulty that it could not possibly be researched or comprehended at an individual level, then barring proper matchmaking.

If that's what Warframe's revitalization of Raid/Trial content eventually brings us, it would be a real shame.

[RichardKam]

Given how friendly the tridolon hunting is, I am not really optimistic about raid.

Guys, you don't actually want raid, you just want to play raid with a perfectly coherent team, while in reality most of the time you will play with a random squad that 2/4 of them dunno how raid works.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

23 hours ago, Darkduprey said:

If I were the one to design them they would not exist, because I do not think such content should be allowed for non pre-made group at all.

Didn't both LOR and JV require a key and pre-game lobby with at least 4 players to start at all? Warframe trials all required pre-made groups in that sense. Kind of hard for the game to tell the difference between a coordinated raider and a rando from recruit chat if they can only arrive through host's invitation. 

DE looking into raids and missions that require more cooperation is a welcome news. Hopefully, this time, DE connects the raids to a logical story thread that players are aware some "questlines" end with raids.

LOR and JV were unpopular for many different reasons but gauging from the reactions to their removal vast majority of players simply didn't know of trials' existence because nothing in the game even hints at existence of such things. Unless you were there for the only advertisement those raids ever got, which was during their launch, there was no natural lead for players into trials. 

[HonorGuard2074]

Used to raid a LOT in Warframe when they were around

Worse toxicity I ever saw was simply a united groan when we had that puzzle section in the trials due to no one liked standing there all day ,but beside that it was VERY welcoming to my knowledge and not any more toxic than the rest of the game

[MajMishap]

I was disappointed reading the survey results too since I liked raids about half-way between PVP and Eidolons which I considered an improvement but abandoned as soon as maxing out focus.    Reading the questions it was already obvious that the survey was designed to demonstrate how popular the idea was so results not too surprising though.

One curious result was the low level desire compared to the high have them at all desire.  I had assumed the demand was mainly from folks who wanted rewards to sell which were elitist-only to acquire.  Results seem to put "OMG No raids please" and "must have SP+ enemies or it will suck" in the same bucket so seems I was wrong.  Maybe folks really do just want a more co-op mode despite how vocally they hated the original RailJack.

I hope they don't repeat JV though.  That was extreme toxic because you could not meaningfully contribute without being hard-carried a few times first -- if you missed the first 24 hours where everyone was in the same forced-fail mode then too bad you are now a dead-weight pariah.  What great fun.  I hope any checkpoints / pre-requisites have separate matchmaking.  (  pre-req was removed by Nidus quest just before JV itself but "should we have large clan only for first year game modes" was not on the survey ).