DE should just go ahead and put out rules for how the game has to be played.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

They're nerfing it because they did a wittle ammo nerf and people said that was too much so now they are looking for alternative solutions. 

If you all would have kept quiet and used the kuva tonkor you would have been fine, but seeing as these ammo changes were apparently too much, you will have to deal with something that is probably going to be way worse and affect ALL of the AoE weapons.

Except they haven't said squat about reverting any of the previous nerfs.  A bunch of weapons not exclusive to the launcher category are probably about to have ammo issues, stagger AND self damage.  We should NOT be keeping our mouths shut, all these nerfs need to go.  They should know people are unhappy with what they're doing.  Based on thebreactions I've seen here and in game, most of these changes are super unpopular.  

[trst]

Posts like this will continue to be nothing but troll posts until DE actually makes a meaningful nerf to AOE.

Ammo nerfs? Solved by slotting ammo mutation.

Range nerf? Ranges are still large enough to go wall to wall on most tiles,

Potential self damage reversion? Stop shooting at your own feet.

 

Come back when they actually touch their damage or put restrictions on them that aren't overcome by slotting a single mod or not spending a fifth of your ammo on a single enemy.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

 They should know people are unhappy with what they're doing.  Based on thebreactions I've seen here and in game, most of these changes are super unpopular.  

Many people are actually very happy about these changes. 

Like seriously there are people coming back to play because of these changes.

 

 

Yes many people are upset, but they're a different side of the community, and as I already pointed out, the people complaining are the ones who refuse to make it better for themselves. 

I doubt any of them tried the tonkor or building for extra ammo before complaining. 

You could probably circumvent the nerfs using only a mutation mod and energized munitions for your Wukong or Wisp, while Protea mains can just use the anchor and dispensary to have infinite ammo. 

So the top meta frames should be unaffected by these changes if you are willing to work towards them.

[MechNexus]

These posts are hilarious for so many reasons.

First, DE hasn't defined how you should play the game like you seem to want (sarcastically), but they have outlined a form of play they deem unacceptable because it's detrimental to everyone else's experience - re-read the first Veilbreaker followup post where Rebecca outlines this. (basically automation, disrupting other players, feeling pressured into a given setup)

Secondly, and this ties into the first point - DE has applied the nerfs in a way that keeps the weapons powerful, but reigns in what made them problematic - which was that they were way too powerful for how little effort they required, and involved no actual thinking or strategy, just aim wherever and everything dies. Now you need to think about where you aim to make the most of it's power.

I hate saying this, but - git gud.

[AzureScion]

Can't say about other nerfs (Styanax, Gyre, Melee meta, Maiming Strike etc) but AoE change was necessary. It has been a problem for years now and they needed to address it one way or the other, and honestly this is the mildest solution they could've gone for. They didn't take away their power - they only put an additional restriction on the launchers so that people can no longer spam bombs clearing rooms without a care in the world. 

And no, not a single ST weapon was affected by this change. The guns that spit bullets like crazy (Kohm, Twin Grakata, etc) have always had ammo problems even before this change and required people to use ammo mutation even since then. Plus headshots+armor/shield strips are stronger now so you can practically consume less bullets than it was before this patch. 

But tell me, what do you define as fun? Genuine question. Maybe we can start from that to see what the problem is.

[ant99999]

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The fact that you can't understand why someone wouldn't like nerfs just because they don't affect large parts of their arsenal tells me everything I need to know.  "I don't have that problem so it doesn't exist."  

One of my favourite build for low level exterminate is a Revenant With Kuva Zarr. Just saying.

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Self damage coming back to AOE amps that already shouldn't have self stagger.  Having it come to all AOE like self stagger did.  The Astilla never had self damage, but they stuck stagger on it because screw the handfulnof people that liked it, right?  You think that self damage isn't going to show up on literally everything that has self stagger that never had self damage originally?  My favorite, the Basmu is probably about to take off 75% of my health if something runs in front of me while I'm shooting, or a stray shot hits terrain

Ok. This is something. So your issue is with self-staggers and self damage. Well yes, I don't like how both of them are implemented (or to be implemented) into the game. They are implemented broadly over the entirety of the arsenal instead of the neccesity of such mechanic being discussed case by case.

Why didn't you tell that in the beggining, instead of being pointlessly hostile?

 

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

If none of the pro-nerf people are the stragglers I see in every fissure with no kills, and you're all as good and "skilled" as you claim, then why aren't you in front of the cookie cutter build bramma boy, beating him to the punch?  You should be crapping all over pubs numbers if you're all so skill based and above it all.  Not on here gloating about how something you percieved as your issue getting nerfed.

Don't project. I didn't say anything about being skillful or competing with other players for tge end screen numbers. That's a stupid thing to do.

 

The reason why I answered the way I did is because your original post isn't very constructive. I couldn't find any fleshed out arguement in there. It's all passive aggressiveness, some mentions of issues here and there, but overall reads like a complaint post. Only now I am seeing some actual points being made. And ones I can agree with.

[zuraja]

11 minutes ago, MechNexus said:

feeling pressured into a given setup

So when are they going to make Archons less miserable for people who don't want to use Incarnon guns or a Kuva Hek?

[Skoomaseller]

24 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Well, I don't know. I suppose if you try, you can extract some bits and pieces of sensible points from the OP's post.

Like yes, a lot of weaker options are still unusable. The damage system is still a mess and the game incentivizes speedrunning the missions above actually playing. This is all I can agree with.

But then all these fragments of a potentially reasonable discussion are mixed together with some conspiracies about DE wanting players to play how they like, stirred in a passive agressive way, and the resulting dish smells heavily of an angry Wukong main.

You have to have a particular attitude to be willing to find any sense in a post structured in every way like its whining about AoE nerf.

the only one so far who thinks it's structured in a way that hides a sort of whine post is you and a few others. OP is quite upfront in his post and laid out his criticisms quite clearly. there is no need for deep reading to see what OP is trying to say. idk how you're not getting his point.

not every negative post has some sort of convoluted conspiracy behind it. 

idk why you're trying to derail the post but I urge you to stop if you have nothing of value to say or discuss.

[EdinaMonsoon]

ah, your first time where the meta weapon you relied on got nerfed?

don't worry, it's a rite of passage. there's a great bunch of weapons that can handle the steel path and 100s of them can handle all starchart content

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

meta will always exist, its like a hydra

You do realise that the original legend of the Hydra ends with it being slain, right?

[Merrcenary]

also they might finally introduce kick option (like in pd2 )
so people who don't like how others play (using aoe, meta frames, socketed 5 tau gems etc) will be kicked
why not?

[EDM774]

There is an old saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
In all the years of this game's life it's been a repeating cycle over and over again.

Someone finds an interaction or combination that makes playing the game easier/faster/lessens the grind whatever you wanna call it.

They share it with friends, those share it with others until it reaches a critical mass of followers who invest into it and trigger DE's Geiger counter, promptly swinging a hammer and causing a small nuke to go off in the community with radioactive fallout affecting in some cases the whole game's direction. 
Some players leave, others persist like gaming cockroaches who just don't give a damn and new ones join with no way of knowing what happened before and the process repeats.

I'm the cockroach type. I've been playing since 2014 been trough most of the changes that shook the community, but I just keep silently playing the game, being bummed A is gone but I adapt to use B, then C etc. It's always the same thing over and over again, when the players that join after this all dies down find a new meta, which will promptly get nerfed, it'll all happen again.

[RichardKam]

46分钟前 , trst 说:

Posts like this will continue to be nothing but troll posts until DE actually makes a meaningful nerf to AOE.

Ammo nerfs? Solved by slotting ammo mutation.

Range nerf? Ranges are still large enough to go wall to wall on most tiles,

Potential self damage reversion? Stop shooting at your own feet.

 

Come back when they actually touch their damage or put restrictions on them that aren't overcome by slotting a single mod or not spending a fifth of your ammo on a single enemy.

Now now......to their defense DE never attempted to nerf AoE directly. It was automation and dominance. AoE was collateral damage, sort of.

We will see the end of changes as long as some people are no longer being able to automating and industrializing the game for their own RMT profit, and hurting DE financially.

Otherwise, self damage, and then LoS check, and finally, damage nerf.

[Kegnor97]

hace 2 horas, Hayrack dijo:

 

Best joke today so far.

The only skill you need is trading, so you can buy primes, railjack and mechs for plat. If you pay money, you don't even need any skill.

And that is the main problem, the game is so laking in challenge that any minor inconvinience like the ammo changes causes the playerbase to react in the way of the OP, with that mentality any attempt at creating any challenging content will be poorly recived if it does so much as managing to kill you

[Surbusken]

That's the whole point of it all.

Corporations are all about consumer control, while "playing" per definition has to some elements of creativity and unpredictable outcomes.

 

Would it be fun to play poker, if you stacked the cards, knew everyone's hand and had the dealer dictate every action? Generally, the more you are dictated, the more fun you have?

That's the disconnect, that they don't get.

 

Can we increase montlhy player retention, if we install a weekly, 5 year grind? That's the powerpoint slide they are looking at, with some quote from a corporate analytic.

"Fun" is like a planet in another galaxy, in an alternate universe.

[Zimzala]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

...  I'm trying to make a point.  People are having fun but all DE can do is tell us we're not having fun the right way.  It's their game, not ours, and we need to play it how they want.  They won't address that the reason these metas exist is because most of the alternatives are utterly useless in comparison.  No one but a new player or a bored meme artist is modding for puncture over slash.  But they won't adjust anything to make alternatives better.  Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind but they won't adjust the grind or the weapons.  They'll only nerf the methods people use to go faster....

The hyperbole here is the only thing this post has right from my POV.

So, yet another change was made to the game, more changes are coming, nothing new here, same as it has been for years, some people deal with change, others act like entitled children who think playing a game is an 'investment' or something.

You literally sound like a child at a birthday party when told they can have only a piece of cake, not the whole thing to me here.

You then say, after you say DE runs the game, that the complainers dictate it all and contradict half your 'argument'.

I get it. You see any reduction in player power some kind of terrible crime against humanity and you love to play the martyr, even for those 'whom you are not a part of'.

My suggestion?

Get over it.

[Crossader]

56 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

There is an old saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
In all the years of this game's life it's been a repeating cycle over and over again.

Someone finds an interaction or combination that makes playing the game easier/faster/lessens the grind whatever you wanna call it.

They share it with friends, those share it with others until it reaches a critical mass of followers who invest into it and trigger DE's Geiger counter, promptly swinging a hammer and causing a small nuke to go off in the community with radioactive fallout affecting in some cases the whole game's direction. 
Some players leave, others persist like gaming cockroaches who just don't give a damn and new ones join with no way of knowing what happened before and the process repeats.

I'm the cockroach type. I've been playing since 2014 been trough most of the changes that shook the community, but I just keep silently playing the game, being bummed A is gone but I adapt to use B, then C etc. It's always the same thing over and over again, when the players that join after this all dies down find a new meta, which will promptly get nerfed, it'll all happen again.

True 

[--END--Rikutatis]

They have, OP. Read the news and the patch notes. The rules are: no easy automation (afk farming style); no ruining or disrupting the other players experience; no option so overpowered it renders everything else irrelevant. 

Meta AoE launchers did all of those. So get over it. If braindead afk farming with a launcher spamming explosives nonstop at the floor is the only way you can have "fun", it's time to look for a new game. Rebb seems far less lenient than Steve was, and I'm loving it. 

If you are willing to budge an inch and adapt a tiny bit, you can even still spam explosives, just requires a very tiny change in build and playstyle. Basically use ammo mutation and don't keep your finger pressed on LMB nonstop for the entire mission and you should be fine.

[MechNexus]

4 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

They have, OP. Read the news and the patch notes. The rules are: no easy automation (afk farming style); no ruining or disrupting the other players experience; no option so overpowered it renders everything else irrelevant. 

Meta AoE launchers did all of those. So get over it. If braindead afk farming with a launcher spamming explosives nonstop at the floor is the only way you can have "fun", it's time to look for a new game. Rebb seems far less lenient than Steve was, and I'm loving it. 

If you are willing to budge an inch and adapt a tiny bit, you can even still spam explosives, just requires a very tiny change in build and playstyle. Basically use ammo mutation and don't keep your finger pressed on LMB nonstop for the entire mission and you should be fine.

Adding onto this, ammo mutation seems to bypass the usual pickup rate on weapons like the Bramma - i've been getting a pretty hefty amount from a single secondary ammo pickup on mine.

[(PSN)Synkreto]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just put out rules and set builds and loadouts and tell us how you expect us to play so that we can finally figure out what fun is.  Obviously we can't do that on our own because they're doing everything they can to herd us into and away from things.  

 

Loki with all movement and defensive mods, with the wall latch set so I can hide up in the rafters away from the scary level 15 enemies that I'm not supposed to kill too fast?  Latron, right?  Can I at least use the prime?  Don't worry, I still have my damaged serration mod.  And impact damage, I can out that on so that I'm not using the bad ol viral slash meta,  right?

People will say troll post, but for the mods:  I'm trying to make a point.  People are having fun but all DE can do is tell us we're not having fun the right way.  It's their game, not ours, and we need to play it how they want.  They won't address that the reason these metas exist is because most of the alternatives are utterly useless in comparison.  No one but a new player or a bored meme artist is modding for puncture over slash.  But they won't adjust anything to make alternatives better.  Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind but they won't adjust the grind or the weapons.  They'll only nerf the methods people use to go faster.

 

They'll listen to players crying they can't keep up in a meso fissure or universal medallions in conclave, but they won't look at mountains of negative feedback or bad reviews.  It's not obvious there's a specific way we're supposed to play.  Just go ahead and spell it out already. 

50 Frames . Hundreds of weapons . Gazillions of MODs an other addons like Arcanes etc . to play around with . Idk rly how many mission types and gamemodes . Side activities. Heck, one can even make a career as a collector and/or trader on Wf and enjoy the hell out of it, without being bothered the slightest bit by changes to ammo XD .

And your critique boils down to "They'll only nerf the methods people use to go faster." .

Not on one word in your post shows any consideration for the huge variety of gameplay and tools Warframe offers . Nope . "going faster" . Thats what you are on about . No consideration for people actually enjoying slower paced gameplay, because they enjoy certain weapons, frames, missiontypes more . No consideration for the diverse missiontypes ( newsflash, some missionstypes, going fast means to not shoot at all ...and nothing has changed there really XD ) .

From your narrow persepctive, I can understand that it looks like DE is out to get you, to ruin your fun. But there really are lot more people playing the game, in many different ways, playing it for many, many different aspects than "going faster" .

[Mag_Gaming]

11 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

 Rebb seems far less lenient than Steve was, and I'm loving it.

You and me both.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's a sandbox like any other game. Find like minded Tenno and make a clan.

[Zimzala]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Synkreto said:

From your narrow persepctive, I can understand that it looks like DE is out to get you, to ruin your fun. But there really are lot more people playing the game, in many different ways, playing it for many, many different aspects than "going faster" .

So much this ^^.

Great post.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I see a lot of people putting a lot of words into the OP's mouth, that the OP didn't say.

DE seems to nerf anything that players find that helps them get ahead in a fun way because it "wasn't intended" in their design. We don't know what their intent was until they nerf things that are suddenly not good in their eyes. (some things were coded into the game, are not abuses, and are still labeled in this way, such as Venari healing defense objectives, and Styanax's using other abilities while airborne - even with in-game tips that advised using those tactics... but suddenly, that's not right.)

AoE is encouraged by DE's design of the game, because the goal of most game modes is to kill many enemies quickly. OF COURSE AOE will be a dominant weapon type. That's no surprise, and it's not something to nerf because it's invalidating other options... it's the most effective tactic... the only way to change that with nerfs, is to either make them too weak to take out enemies faster than single target weapons, or make them too cumbersome to use (at which point, it's just removing fun)... Apparently, using AoE to deal with hordes is now against DE's design? (I've posted my solution to this, but it requires new game modes and objectives that AoE does not help players achieve most effectively, so AoE is no longer the "META".)

Those are what I see as the most recent examples of the type of actions the Original Poster is referring to, and it doesn't require a person to be personally impacted by the nerf for them to see a pattern and speak up about it, because eventually, the "not my problem" viewpoint will leave you in the crosshairs of one of DE's often heavy-handed nerfing bouts (unless you actively seek out using the LETA (least effective tactics available...))

[(PSN)Synkreto]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's a sandbox like any other game. Find like minded Tenno and make a clan.

And/or say hello to the WF speedrunning scene maybe. And go find out and learn what the real "Go faster" people in the Game actually do .