Is DE scared to give us more Power Range or has it just been forgotten?

[Zahnrad]

First off this isn't meant as a slight against DE but more of a personal observation I've noticed for a while.

Power Duration has had new additions and Power Strength has obtained a lot of different sources. Yet Power Range seems to be getting the short end of the stick.

 

It's got me curious, how powerful/strong is Power Range compared to Power Strength and Power Duration, and is there a huge balancing reason as to why DE have avoided it?

Both the Molt Arcanes and Archon Shards fail to provide any Power Range.

EDIT: Since this thread keeps getting necro'd thought I'd just mention my opinions have changed since I started this thread.

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

It's got me curious, how powerful/strong is Power Range compared to Power Strength and Power Duration, and is there a huge balancing reason as to why DE have avoided it?

Have you seen what it can do for Volt's 4, Equinox's 4, and Saryn's 1+4?

More range would make more nukes, and make existing nukes even more OP.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

I think Power Range is the most disruptive of the bunch, not because it's "OP" but because High Range can lead to a team of 3 Tenno just watching one guy use powers, the powers are faster than the 3 tenno. And like 2 minute defense missions, and DE doesn't like that 

[Zahnrad]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

Have you seen what it can do for Volt's 4, Equinox's 4, and Saryn's 1+4?

More range would make more nukes, and make existing nukes even more OP.

I don't think it'd make that big of a deal personally. All of those nukes can already cover 50% or the entirety of ESO tiles, and the same argument could be said for Power Strength which has only ever gone up.

[Tiltskillet]

I've felt for five years or so that we've had to much modded range available, and that it's a bigger issue than strength or (especially) duration. 

I can imagine a better system where there are more range modifiers available, but it would have to come alongside a recalibrating of the base ranges of many abilities.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

When you're experienced enough in the game, you realize range isn't as important (unless it's melee).

Range invigorations are a great chance to use that extra range to offset the cursed duration mod for example.

That and it would just be too OP for the meta chasers. 

[Skoomaseller]

more range means saryn can spread spores and miasma across the entire origin system from the comfort of her own orbiter, and volt discharge will be able to shock an entire planet

but yes I want to see more options for ranged regardless lmao

[Zahnrad]

4 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

more range means saryn can spread spores and miasma across the entire origin system from the comfort of her own orbiter, and volt discharge will be able to shock an entire planet

but yes I want to see more options for ranged regardless lmao

I tend to avoid most of the nuke frames, and had to force myself to learn a Nuke for ESO recently. (I chose Volt btw)

I mostly just want Power Range so I can use it to make goofy high values since I like to maximize a specific stat on certain warframes for fun. Most of the time I do that, my build is bad and not very effective anyway.

Most meta use I'd find out of it is using it on Xaku for enhanced crate smashing potential.

[Skoomaseller]

Just now, Zahnny said:

I tend to avoid most of the nuke frames, and had to force myself to learn a Nuke for ESO recently. (I chose Volt btw)

I mostly just want Power Range so I can use it to make goofy high values since I like to maximize a specific stat on certain warframes for fun. Most of the time I do that, my build is bad and not very effective anyway.

Most meta use I'd find out of it is using it on Xaku for enhanced crate smashing potential.

yeah I know I can understand that, minmaxing.

regardless of what people think I hope we get more options for range.

[quxier]

On 2023-04-27 at 6:55 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

When you're experienced enough in the game, you realize range isn't as important (unless it's melee).

It honestly depends on frame. Some abilities don't care about range at all (Yareli/Aquablades) but need lot of strength. Other have increased power with range. Xaku is like heaven & earth with almost double amount of guns of 2nd (6 vs ~12). It's even let you disarm more often (when you are not using 4th).

On 2023-04-27 at 6:51 PM, Tiltskillet said:

I can imagine a better system where there are more range modifiers available, but it would have to come alongside a recalibrating of the base ranges of many abilities.

I think there would be have to be more than "recalibrating". We have:

Quote

•     Overextended [+90% Ability Range, -60% Ability Strength]
•  Stretch [+45% Ability Range]
•  Augur Reach [+30% Ability Range, +40% Energy spent on abilities is converted to shields]

Excluding Cunning drift which "supposed" to be "weak. All 3 gives you +165% range. Xaku/2nd guns goes from 6 to ~16.

So, let's say, we add 30% for each. (120%, 75% and 60%). That's additional 90% range, 255% total. That range would give Xaku/2nd additional 5-6. So that's goes from ~16 to ~21.

To keep Xaku/2nd ~16 guns you would have nerf base 2nd to: 4-5. I feel like 4 is weak. It would mean that we are "forced" range mod to make it "ok".

Of course they can change it like, caping max guns but that's like cheating. It's like after some point it's randomly useless. They can let us disarm more enemies with some conversion or something. Sadly they won't touch one part that isn't too powered because "they don't like it to be like Loki". With such reasonings you can expect abilities to be nerfed or some other big disadvantage.

[PsiWarp]

When they get around to Line-Of-Sight restricting every AoE ability, then we'll start seeing Ability Range mods and Arcanes pop up. Maybe even have some enemy types block LOS (Shield Lancers, enemies hiding behind Brunts/Vector Shields, Arctic Eximus, Swarm Mutalist MOA's clouds, etc).

[Tsukinoki]

On 2023-04-27 at 11:40 AM, Zahnny said:

It's got me curious, how powerful/strong is Power Range compared to Power Strength and Power Duration, and is there a huge balancing reason as to why DE have avoided it?

The biggest reason is this:
Why do we need more range when abilities can already hit further than entire tiles with the range we have?

 

We can already lock down stupidly massive areas with our abilities range...we really don't need more range than what we already have.
We really don't need to just go "Ok, I cast this one ability and the neighboring 3 tiles are all completely locked down and helpless....."

 

Even some of the "shorter" range abilities are quite huge compared to most tiles and can lock them down.
For exmaple take Vaubans Bastille, but more importantly it's vortex form.
That has a base range of 10 meter radius...which is decent but not huge.  You can already make that become a rather sizable 28 meter radius pull....that completely and utter ragdolls all enemies and renders them unable to do anything except float there.  Works through walls and everything and makes some mission types, such as interception, painfully boring.
And you want to add more range to that?
How many tiles in the game can you put down a 56 meter wide area of "Turns off enemies" and not have that be enough?

 

There would need to be major reworks to abilities and how they function and their base ranges before DE could consider adding more range options to the game.

[Hypernaut1]

I feel like range is already ridiculous as it is.

What ability do you want more range on?

[Zahnrad]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I feel like range of already ridiculous as it is.

What ability do you want more range on?

I like fun meme builds like Minmaxxing.

I don't care about Meta or Effectiveness I just want to push things to their limit simply for fun.

For a specific ability? Xaku's 4th for crate smashing. That's the only example I can think of where I'd use it seriously.

[trst]

LOS restrictions started becoming a thing as players started locking down and nuking enemies through walls and in neighboring tiles. So I wouldn't expect DE to start throwing more range at us without them going through and adding LOS to all abilities.

Though I wouldn't be surprised to see variants of Stretch eventually. Like Archon Stretch didn't modify the amount of range but I could see them making some other variant with a conditional modifier/downside.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

On 2023-04-27 at 12:55 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

 

Range invigorations are a great chance to use that extra range to offset the cursed duration mod for example.

 

The limbo duration mod

Meanwhile ability efficiency with only two sources and a hard cap of 175%.

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, quxier said:

I think there would be have to be more than "recalibrating".

So I wasn't very clear, but that's not my preference.  I'd rather DE kept range modifiers the same and recalibrated base ranges that need it, both up and down.  Or reduced the total amount of range bonus available and recalibrated base ranges--a lot more up and few if any down.  But the safest and definitely easiest choice is:  just don't mess with range at all.

 

[Mieo_Mio]

Mirage and Saryn are bad enough with overextended. When you can finish a defense round with never having seen an enemy... Something is broken.  I left Octavia off the list because issued mallet damage is blocked by static collision.    

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

2 hours ago, Mieo_Mio said:

Mirage and Saryn are bad enough with overextended. When you can finish a defense round with never having seen an enemy... Something is broken.  I left Octavia off the list because issued mallet damage is blocked by static collision.    

Plus it's calculated based on the enemy's feet or something, so it's even easier to block than most people think.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Well one aspect to consider, is that generally speaking, DE isn't a singular entity and neither are we the players. For example, I have met way more players who are against the idea of increased range in Warframe and against power creep, than DE. Then within DE, there are likely different ideas and views about what can be done with such aspects of the game, but less preference based and more centered around the game balance/state and potential ramifications. Also since they a professional business, you won't necessarily be privy to such internal disputes, like you would fans on a forum. They'd also present a better united front. 

Basically its not really just DE being concerned with such potential power issues, but fans as well, which complicates things, because hypothetically if all fans/potential wanted a billion plus increase in range with shards or Arcanes, and such a scenario would result in bug money at DE, then as silly as a billion percent increase in range would be, it would be done. Except obviously most fans don't want that, and even the small small minority that might, wouldn't be offset by breaking the game for the rest. 

Also, DE does have to consider a lot more variables, than a player and there preference. Like they do have to consider the meta players and players who play to try min/max and will try to use the most broken builds. There are quite a few Warframes that would dramatically increase in power because of range buffs. Equinox, Saryn, Lavos, Protea, Xaku off the top of my head. A lot more if you are just considering non Steel Path missions. Range can be deceptive state to consider, because you are also dealing with volume. Bit like how the AOE increasing Primed Mods were a bit broken, because its not just a strength increase in one direction, but multiple. As someone who often tests out Invigorations frequently, usually its the range increases that are the most broken/significant generally. Duration on certain Warframes, but even then, they are usually more about offsetting other issues or being a comfort, like having to recast less etc

[Zekkii]

The main problem is the nature of abilities that benefit from Ability Radius.  Almost all of them are spherical.  As an example, increasing the radius of a Sphere to 2.8x increases the volume to 22 times its original volume.

If they had more of a linear scaling like power duration, most power strength abilities, or even line-range abilities then I'm sure they would have added more range mods.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I don't think any of you guys ever use Limbo with max modded range, with invigorate, plus reactant buff. Boy was that a fun week.

[0_The_F00l]

More range is point for point more likely to be disruptive than power strength or duration or even efficiency ,

I have had this discussion before with others , 

Duration scales linearly ,

Efficiency has a cap ,

And Strength tends to give diminishing results the more you stack on , 

But Range on the other hand tends to rise by a power of 2 (area) or 3 (volume) so it's easier to get out of hand.

Many abilities also can hit through obstacles and between tilesets. It has the greatest potential to #*!% things up.

Would i love if my Equinox could cover the entire map ? Yes , but i can see how it could also be much more overpowered above a certain threshold (it already screws some things during a fissure where i gain a range boost).

[Mieo_Mio]

13 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I don't think any of you guys ever use Limbo with max modded range, with invigorate, plus reactant buff. Boy was that a fun week.

In index every time. Goal tending.

[cute_moth.npc]

Increase the range cap..

Then turn the base range down on all of the massive area skills that lock the game down in perpetuity.. Some of those numbers getting halved would really help.

Affected Warframes will get boosts in other categories in order to stop being such one trick ponies.

I'd be up for that :)