Is it okay when the dev said it's too much work for them to fix a bug so they decide not to?

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

3 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Nice try.

I thought this was a public-ish forum for all of us to share out POVs, not just to entertain those who would kvetch and moan about things?

I still play and enjoy the game, much to the chagrin of the DE haters.

Opinions are not sacrosanct, and if posted in a public forum, should be ready for dissent.

Welcome to the Internet, new here?

You can browse the net freely, but when you attack someone on a personal level especially on a forum it shows your lack of grace and decorum, you don’t like anyone being critical that’s fine that’s your right but don’t try to act high and mighty it makes you look pedantic at best amigo.

Edited October 24, 2023 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[schilds]

Fixing bugs means changing/writing code. Writing code means opportunities to introduce new bugs. Be careful what you wish for :-P.

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

If it takes an entire month for one of their programmers to fix this, then please hire me. I'll have it sorted on day one. :)

yeah, i could probably knock this out in an hour or two on my lunch break while eating a sandwich. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[kamisama85]

Posts and armchair attitudes responses like the ones in this thread are exactly how you get Pablo to never want to interface with the community ever again going forward.

Good job OP and friends.

[Aruquae]

5 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

Posts and armchair attitudes responses like the ones in this thread are exactly how you get Pablo to never want to interface with the community ever again going forward.

Good job OP and friends.

Either that or Pablo’s sitting in his own armchair having a good laugh about this thread

Anything’s possible when it comes to Pablo

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

Posts and armchair attitudes responses like the ones in this thread are exactly how you get Pablo to never want to interface with the community ever again going forward.

Good job OP and friends.

Yeah, except the way Pablo wrote his response makes him sound like something you'd hear from Blizzard on Diablo IV. If he cut off his statement with "This would require reworking every subsume", most people would just see the reasoning and come to an understanding. Throwing in the "can we afford to fix this" rubs so many people the wrong way, especially considering how much money Warframe takes in, as well as the sustainability of updates. 

I just see his comment as honesty of why the game's so broken. He's being blunt that you're more profitable churning out unfinished content instead of refining the gameplay. We see this with many games nowadays, and Pablo's just being honest.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Voltage

[Zimzala]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

You can browse the net freely, but when you attack someone on a personal level especially on a forum it shows your lack of grace and decorum, you don’t like anyone being critical that’s fine that’s your right but don’t try to act high and mighty it makes you look pedantic at best amigo.

Show me. Show me where I have attacked anyone?

I have not said I don't like people being critical.

I have stated plainly that people being unrealistic about how things get done need to realize they are uninformed.

I have stated plainly that many of the views expressed here are silly and uninformed.

Show me where I have attacked people personally.

Sure, I have called out prose and attitudes, but again, I am commenting on what people have said here, nothing about them as people.

i have waxed about it seems some people must love pain if they hate the game and it's maker so much, yet still play it, that's a pretty silly thing to do, in my opinion.

I have tried to humorously point out that sometimes, it's time to move on to a different game.

If some people cannot separate their ideas from their personal wellbeing, that's a different topic altogether.

If I come across as lacking grace, decorum, or pedantic to you, I can live with that, won't change my life.

[Hypernaut1]

55 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

Posts and armchair attitudes responses like the ones in this thread are exactly how you get Pablo to never want to interface with the community ever again going forward.

Good job OP and friends.

i remember a time when the devs would share almost everything they were working on or thinking about. Even things we never got to see in game. There was no outrage or people calling them liars. It was just a sneak peak into their development process. Some things worked out, some things didnt and the forums didnt implode. Now they need to be be careful about every statement they make or people will riot. Dev streams have been regulated to marketing for newest update now. and its mainly because people just cant respect the process. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i remember a time when the devs would share almost everything they were working on or thinking about. Even things we never even got to see in game. There was no outrage either or people calling them liars. It was just a sneak peak into their development process. Some things worked out, some things didnt and the forums didnt implode. Now they need to be be careful about every statement they make or people will riot. Dev streams have been regulated to marketing for newest update now. and its mainly because people just cant respect the process. 

So much this^^.

We now have a literal army of armchair pundits that get their dopamine fixes off of critiquing things they don't even understand, just so they can feel better about themselves.

From the movie Phenomenon. Not a perfect analogy, but this is exactly how I see most of the militant gamers:

• Doc : [after hearing several of the townsfolk openly disparage George in the Bar]  Why do ya have to tear him down? What are ya so afraid of? What have you got to lose? He wasn't selling anything! He didn't want anything from anybody! He wanted nothing from nobody! Nothing! And you people have to tear him down so you can sleep better tonight! So ya can prove that the world is flat and ya can sleep better tonite! Am I right? Am I right?... I'm right... The Hell with all of ya. The Hell with everyone of ya.

  [storms out of the Bar] 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

And now we're stooping to personal attacks and ad hominem in the desperate effort do justify bugs not getting fixed. Yeah, it's all my fault that DE can't fix their bugs, right right.

But you are twisting what has been said. You are disengenous in this case. This is about one particular frame regarding bugs tied to one specific system for that frame alone. This isnt about not fixing bugs, it is about those fixing bugs already, or getting hired to fix bugs having their time wasted for 1 month to fix 1 frame out of 50+.  There is no reasonable justification to dedicate that much time for such a specific bug that affects so few when they can instead use that time to fix bugs that cover a wider part of the playerbase.

Now if this was a thing tied to transference for all frames and helminth skills it'd be a completely different thing.

The funny thing is that we just recieved a patch with a massive amount of bug fixes, from those affecting systems to those that affect performance. Which makes you look even more disengenous in this case.

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, Corvid said:

Somehow, I don't believe you.

ClearHDD the servers IS a solution.

[kyori]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

This is not a good excuse for any company, and I'm not even talking about DE.

Yes, very unprofessional. I knew their attitude and habit since 2-3 years ago when I met a similar attitude of response from 1 of them on the devstream couch, for voicing concern over a major storyline that turned out to be just a quest.

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, kyori said:

Yes, very unprofessional. I knew their attitude and habit since 2-3 years ago when I met a similar attitude of response from 1 of them on the devstream couch, for voicing concern over a major storyline that turned out to be just a quest.

How is it unprofessional to do the troubleshooting and determine there is not ROI for the company in making a change and therefore allocating resources elsewhere?

Sound like the work of a professional who has the whole picture.

Is it disappointing? Perhaps. 

Unprofessional? Show me. Be specific. Show us a code of professionalism this ROI conclusion violates.

I'll wait.

[NekroArts]

54 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Throwing in the "can we afford to fix this" rubs so many people the wrong way, especially considering how much money Warframe takes in, as well as the sustainability of updates.

Every single one of us has/will find themselves in a situation where an "outside Karen" tells us how we should be doing our jobs and we, the ones that "knows what's best" because we are directly involve, respond with something along the lines of "not how it works" or "not worth it". It's always going to be a &^%# experience, shouldn't have come to a shock if a little attitude leaks outs like that.

[S2Weak]

The code is probably very inelegant if they need to change every subsume ability to keep umbra excal's state.

An overhaul on lower level code for umbra excal or subsume ability is probably more future proof.

So the question is: Is it worth it to clean up a frame that is a milestone for every player or a mechanism that changes core gameplay synergy.

 

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

I've always thought that. this is nothing new for me. If you observe DE over the years you ultimately have to come to the conclusion.

It's a shame.

[(PSN)Unstar]

9 hours ago, Kooooooooooooooo said:

We finally get the answer after years of reporting, and they are making excuses.

Does it really need to take a month to make changes to each ability one by one in order to fix the problem?

Can't you fix it in an alternative way that allows us to disable the sentience mode of umbra?

I really don't appreciate his attitude.

I'm going to take your reply in good faith and assume that you aren't understanding the full context in which Pablo made his comments, so I'll try to add that context in the hopes that it makes the understandably bitter medicine go down a bit smoother.

There are a lot of reasons that bugs don't get fixed, but at the core is simply that fixing bugs costs dev bandwidth, and dev bandwidth is limited.  So which bugs do we fix?  Unfortunately the answer will never be "all of them", because even in the biggest companies never have enough resources for that.  The answer comes from a process called "triage".  In short, you look at how hard a bug will probably be to solve, and you compare that with how beneficial solving the bug will be to the overall population of users.  The more beneficial solving the bug will be, the higher the priority.  The more difficult the bug will be to solve, the lower the priority.  In other words, the bugs you solve first should be the ones that provide the most "bang" for your "buck".

And the unfortunate reality is that that means that bugs that are difficult to solve that offer more meager benefits may never be solved, because there might always be more impactful bugs that should be solved first.  And this isn't the case just with games, but with all software products.

So with that context, we can try to address Pablo's (rhetorical?) question: is it worth a programmer's time for a month to change the way that 50+ Warframe's subsume abilities function so that this situation that happens when one specific Warframe uses a subset of subsume abilities no longer happens?

Everyone is entitled to their own answer, but for me, I'm sorry to say that answer is "no".  There are so many more important bugs in the game that I would rather see fixed that impact so many more people, so many QoL improvements that I think would be far more beneficial to the game and the player base as a whole.

Which isn't to say it wouldn't be nice if your bug were somehow solved someday; that would be nice!  But in the likely case that it isn't, I hope you understand that it's not out of spite or apathy, but because the devs want to use their limited bandwidth to make the game the best it can possibly be for everyone.

[Traumtulpe]

So can we maybe ignore the professional trolls and get back on topic? The topic was that bug fixing isn't cost effective in case you need a reminder (I wouldn't blame you with the deflecting that's been going on).

For context I've played Baldurs Gate 3 recently, and I was very pleased that the developers have fixed a huge number of bugs since release. I bet if they'd shrugged their shoulders and said "well you already bought the game, no sense in fixing stuff now" they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

[Zimzala]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So can we maybe ignore the professional trolls and get back on topic? The topic was that bug fixing isn't cost effective in case you need a reminder (I wouldn't blame you with the deflecting that's been going on).

For context I've played Baldurs Gate 3 recently, and I was very pleased that the developers have fixed a huge number of bugs since release. I bet if they'd shrugged their shoulders and said "well you already bought the game, no sense in fixing stuff now" they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

And DE just produced a very long list of bug fixes, so they do their part as well.

WF would not be as popular as it is if they had not continued to work on things and fix bugs over time, even if they don't get them all, just as the BG3 developers have not gotten them all, nor WoW developers, nor Diablo developers, etc.

Bug fixing can be cost effective, but some bugs are minor enough and impact gameplay little enough that there is no ROI in the eyes of the developer to fix those bugs.

This may, in fact, come as a disappointment to some players, but this is the reality.

There is nothing unprofessional in directing development resources toward the most ROI, be the Return $, player retention, or enjoyment.

What part would you like to discuss in more detail?

No one here has the whole picture, only the professionals that create the game have the data.

So, all we can do here is speculate.

Again, what parts would you like to continue to speculate about in more detail?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Zimzala
words

[kamisama85]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So can we maybe ignore the professional trolls and get back on topic? The topic was that bug fixing isn't cost effective in case you need a reminder (I wouldn't blame you with the deflecting that's been going on).

This is just your take.
You in particular have a strong bias towards DE with respect to bugs in general. Most of your posts are always about your personal frustrations over bugs bugs bugs. I get it, you want your game to play exactly how you want, when you want.

Unfortunately for you, Unstar's response is the best response in this thread. That is the true reality of the situation. Frustrated people will always try to involve money and greed into the explanation for why companies don't do things. It's not so black and white and not everything is for nefarious intentions. There are a plethora of technical hurdles, whether you are willing to accept those are difficult or not, that make these actions difficult to pursue.

Beyond that, this thread is filed with people such as you who NEED Pablo to be portrayed and likened to Blizzard Pablo for the sake of having something to throw stones at in public and accent your frustration loudly. OP and others did not even bother to point out was the rest of the tweet that followed because it wouldn't fit the narrative fully:

Feel free how you want to interpret Pablo's words, but even unhappy customers need to know when to wise up and walk away too instead of taking a beating to no end. Otherwise it means you're generally content with the product you have in hand.

[Zimzala]

32 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

... OP and others did not even bother to point out was the rest of the tweet that followed because it wouldn't fit the narrative fully...

Well said.

It's fine to want things.

It's fine to want things that are bug free.

It's also fine to accept the reality that modern computer software is not and never will be bug free.

It's not a cop out. It's not saying that no bugs should be fixed. It's not saying no one will ever bother to ever fix any bug, ever again.

It's not being a bootlicker or a white knight or a simp or a dev apologist.

It's just accepting reality.

I might ask in general, in what reality, real or virtual, is everything bug free? Insects aside, our modern world is full of bugs, from our processes to educate to the way we communicate and interact. 

The world is not a perfect place, why does anyone expect perfection in a video game made by humans?

Everyone has the choice to focus on the Fun or focus on the Bugs.

From the evidence we have at hand, DE does a ton of bug work, even one's specific pet-peeve has not been addressed. 

It's obvious DE continues to evolve and fix the game, how is this not enough?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Zimzala
speeling

[Tiltskillet]

9 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

 . . .  the rest of the tweet . . .:

 

Thanks for showing this. I'm not on twitter, and they've made it more difficult for guests to look up full conversations, so I might never have seen the Furious Javelin reply if you hadn't.

[Traumtulpe]

52 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

unhappy customers need to know when to wise up and walk away

Why is it that when DE's shortcomings are discussed - nobody has ever tried arguing that they actually do a satisfactory job on stuff like bugfixing - the response is always "shut up and go away"? I just want the broken stuff to get fixed. Maybe within a year or so, that really shouldn't be too much to ask I don't think.

I never even mentioned Blizzard, and I have no issue with Pablo, but the fact of the matter remains that Pablo did voice what we all know - DE doesn't fix bugs because they don't think it's worth their time, and time *does* mean money in this case.

There is no getting around this point, they *could* fix bugs, they *choose* not to. They choose *not* to hire another programmer, and they *could* afford to.

I think as a customer it's the absolute correct thing to do in this situation to say "Hey, I'm not satsified with your service. You're cutting corners and it's plain to see, do a proper job please."

[Genitive]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Why is it that when DE's shortcomings are discussed - nobody has ever tried arguing that they actually do a satisfactory job on stuff like bugfixing - the response is always "shut up and go away"? I just want the broken stuff to get fixed. Maybe within a year or so, that really shouldn't be too much to ask I don't think.

I never even mentioned Blizzard, and I have no issue with Pablo, but the fact of the matter remains that Pablo did voice what we all know - DE doesn't fix bugs because they don't think it's worth their time, and time *does* mean money in this case.

There is no getting around this point, they *could* fix bugs, they *choose* not to. They choose *not* to hire another programmer, and they *could* afford to.

I think as a customer it's the absolute correct thing to do in this situation to say "Hey, I'm not satsified with your service. You're cutting corners and it's plain to see, do a proper job please."

But you will never be satisfied, no matter what they do. Say they fix all the bugs, you will return here the next day complaining about something else. That's what you do. And even when people prove you wrong you will proceed to ignore them, just like you have been doing in this thread.

You don't get a discussion because you are not interested in one. What you're interested in is validation of your opinions.

Just do us all a favour and put people you don't like on your ignore list and proceed talking to those you agree with.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, Genitive said:

But you will never be satisfied, no matter what they do.

That's just not true at all. Just take this update for example, I'm quite happy that pets got reworked and looking forward to the rest of the rework to come.

How did you even come to that conclusion?