is 75% DR enough?

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think the bolded part is important to consider and is really what it comes down to if Eclipse will be worth it or not for someone. A player should ask themselves "how long/what do I plan to run?". Obviously players that will go to level cap will say "not worth it", but if a player has other plans as standard gameplay such an answer shouldnt be relevant to them.

 

I find it doesn't matter what the level range is now that they destroyed Enemy Defense Scaling. Just not dying works for everything. It used to be about getting a balance between damage output and defense but that's not the case anymore. Just build defensive and let the weapon power creep and paper enemies do their thing.

We have weapon Arcanes that give half of what Chroma gets as a damage buff at this point. It's just silly.
We also beat Enemy Damage Scaling back in 2017 with 1.4 billion eHP. A 9,999 Bombard rocket does 3mil.

Is it wrong for me to assume most people who talk about level cap haven't even been close? Getting to level 5,000 which I've done took 7 hours.

[Traumtulpe]

51 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

though adaption may just be better in that case because it can ramp all the way to 90% dr?

You should use both. Though adaptation is far from a 90% damage reduction - of course it does nothing against initial hits (like occasional Bombard rockets), but it also fares rather poorly against "composite damage", that is enemies who deal multiple damage types in roughly equal amounts, since it only recognizes the highest damage type per hit.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

6 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Even if it was 99.9% DR, it'd still be utterly worthless at a certain level threshold. Enemy damage scaling increases exponentially from level 1000 onwards. The only reliable defensives in the game are Shield Gating and Mesmer Skin.

Maybe in early Steel Path it'll find some use. But for people that enjoy long endurance runs like myself, it's a waste of a subsume slot.

Such a small minority of people are ever going to fight level 1000+ enemies that trashing on something based on how good it is in that scenario seems unfair.

[trst]

Really it needs to be put in the context of the other similar options via Helminth. Where the only other sources of DR is Null Star, Defy, Elemental Ward, Warcry, and Parasitic Armor.

All of those minus Null Star grant varying amounts of armor. Most of which either being a small amount or only really mattering on already high armor frames. Making them only relevant to frames with armor scaling abilities or who can run health tanking setups. Making them all somewhat niche.

Meanwhile Null Star can get much more DR than Eclipse but requires a massive investment into duration and requires the augment to maintain any decent amount of DR. Again making it more of a niche option heavily dependent on frame/build.

 

Thus leaving Eclipse as a fully reliable 75% DR requiring no investment other than not having negative strength. Making it an option you can slap onto any frame you want a bit of extra survivability on or on already tank ones you want to become effectively invulnerable. And even if it's not the best option for shield gating setups it's still going to lengthen the time between shield gates making it a good option if that's a concern.

So yeah I'd say 75% is more than enough to justify usage.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

• maybe banshee? yeah she has silence but its kinda jank only lasts a few seconds unless you constantly run in / out of range or are packing gloom
• maybe Yareli with emphasis on maybe only because I am sure she will probably be fine with her new augement but if I wanted to free an augment slot at the cost of a subsume ?
• or wisp ? she has that high health + healing, maybe 75% dr on top of that will make her more tanky?

a Mod Slot or even two are generally far more valuable than your Subsume 'Slot' - so if you're trying to make very delicate Warframes survive, it's better to use Mods for that than lose out on all of your other choices from Helminth.

out of those, maybe you could do Wisp, if you weren't going to use something else arguably much more useful like Ensnare/Coil Horizon/Airbust/Et Cetera.

6 hours ago, Xzorn said:

You leave my 300% Duration Nova alone!

go nuts, most other Warframes just can't carry that much Duration without ruining themselves.

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Does Total Eclipse DR affect Ironskin?  Eclipse DR doesn't affect Recompense Overguard, so I wouldn't think so.  But WF  is full of surprises. 

since Ironskin is a layer on top of Health, and now even specifically is Overguard - no. nothing modifies Overguard(currently).

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

since Ironskin is a layer on top of Health, and now even specifically is Overguard - no. nothing modifies Overguard(currently).

Most things don't affect Overguard, but there are at least a couple of exceptions.  Not counting invulns and debuffs, Dodge mitigation and Ancient Healer Specter aura do reduce incoming damage to Overguard directly. I'd guess the latter is a bug, and I'd hope the former isn't.

Armor, Adaptation, airborne mitigation, blocking, and Eclipse (unaugmented) do not.  I suspect the many things I haven't tested don't either, but I'd not be shocked if there was another oddball or two.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

75% DR gives you 4 times the survivability.  Naturally it will depend on what your build is and what content you're up against, but that's nothing to sneeze at and will give frames that are normally squishy a new tool to use if they'd like to build themselves to be durable.

8 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

 

what I am curious to know do people think a flat 75% DR (that still has to be built for duration?) is enough to matter for difficult content ?

I went with Xaku (75%) into old Archon hunts solo. It wasn't enough. I think I had Adaptation at that time.

 

I wonder if it's worth. It goes from 75% to 93.75%. With the Adaptation it can go to ~99%. I'm still not sure if that 1% is enough to kill me easily. At least at "hard content" (sp, especially archon hunts).

 

[taiiat]

50 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Most things don't affect Overguard, but there are at least a couple of exceptions.  Not counting invulns and debuffs, Dodge mitigation and Ancient Healer Specter aura do reduce incoming damage to Overguard directly. I'd guess the latter is a bug, and I'd hope the former isn't.

Armor, Adaptation, airborne mitigation, blocking, and Eclipse (unaugmented) do not.  I suspect the many things I haven't tested don't either, but I'd not be shocked if there was another oddball or two.

i didn't know Ancient Healers did, and yeah i'd assume that's unintended.

Dodge.... uhhhhh, since the game has contradictory terms, which are we referring to here? Xaku's buff?
or, Parkour? i don't mention Parkour generally because i assume it's generally assumed that Parkour always works.

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Dodge.... uhhhhh, since the game has contradictory terms, which are we referring to here?

Roll/parkour.

[UnstarPrime]

43 minutes ago, quxier said:

I went with Xaku (75%) into old Archon hunts solo. It wasn't enough. I think I had Adaptation at that time.

One of the things to be aware of is that Xaku doesn't actually have DR, but rather has Evasion.  And this difference is meaningful when Adaptation is in play.  Because Adaptation only builds stacks when you are hit, which means that Adaptation builds stacks 4x faster on a frame with 75% DR when compared to a frame with 75% Evasion.  This will result in the Evasion frame taking more damage until Adaptation reaches its cap(s).

That's why I'm not a fan of using Adaptation with Xaku, because their own passive actually fights against Adaptation.

[taiiat]

11 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

One of the things to be aware of is that Xaku doesn't actually have DR, but rather has Evasion.  And this difference is meaningful when Adaptation is in play.  Because Adaptation only builds stacks when you are hit, which means that Adaptation builds stacks 4x faster on a frame with 75% DR when compared to a frame with 75% Evasion.  This will result in the Evasion frame taking more damage until Adaptation reaches its cap(s).

That's why I'm not a fan of using Adaptation with Xaku, because their own passive actually fights against Adaptation.

and Xakus' inherent traits only apply to "when you don't get hit", so it doesn't really stack with Adaptation anyways. one protects you when you do get hit, the other "when you don't".

Edited March 14 by taiiat

[quxier]

17 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I went with Xaku (75%) into old Archon hunts solo. It wasn't enough. I think I had Adaptation at that time.

One of the things to be aware of is that Xaku doesn't actually have DR, but rather has Evasion.  And this difference is meaningful when Adaptation is in play.  Because Adaptation only builds stacks when you are hit, which means that Adaptation builds stacks 4x faster on a frame with 75% DR when compared to a frame with 75% Evasion.  This will result in the Evasion frame taking more damage until Adaptation reaches its cap(s).

That's why I'm not a fan of using Adaptation with Xaku, because their own passive actually fights against Adaptation.

Good things to know. Thanks. I would have probably get something to gather Adaptation stack.

Still, I'm not fan of other Evasion ways so Adaptation or rolling guard is my top picks.

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and Xakus' inherent traits only apply to "when you don't get hit", so it doesn't really stack with Adaptation anyways. one protects you when you do get hit, the other "when you don't".

More or less, you don't get 75% of hits. 25% of hits that hits you, will be reduced via Adaptation.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

75% is fine IMO: enough to make a difference by itself, but not so much as to allow you to be lazy and tank everything if your frame isn't set up for it or capable of tanking. ther'es plenty other ways to get tankier on top of that.

[Aerikx]

I know this'll sound crazy but what they should do is treat it similar to Styanax's Subsume.

IE: Lower Eclipse's BASE Damage Reduction to like 45% maybe 50%, but allow it to be effected by Power Strength.

This way, once a Frame is at like like 180% or 200% strength, they hit the DR cap of 90%.

I listed Styanax because with his Tharos Strike a player need only invest I believe 180% strength for a full 100% armor strip.

[_Anise_]

6 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

will result in the Evasion frame taking more damage until Adaptation reaches its cap(s).

also evasion does not stack with evasion ! (at least how I understand it)

if you have 25% evasion and 75% evasion you dont have 100% evasion, you have a 75% chance for a projectile to miss then a 25% chance for it to miss then it can still hit you

14 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I know this'll sound crazy but what they should do is treat it similar to Styanax's Subsume.

this was exactly how I saw some streamers predict it would go, a lower starting percentage so it would require a HUGE power investment to get it upto 90% and make it only fully viable for some warframes avoiding it becoming a goto add to every frame like skill

[Hexerin]

18 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

what I am curious to know do people think a flat 75% DR (that still has to be built for duration?) is enough to matter for difficult content ?

75% DR will not be enough to make health tanking builds viable on the frames you'd want Eclipse on for its DR. Full stop, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about (or are comparing to normal star chart, which is not relevant for balance discussions).

Source: Myself, a Trinity lifer. Link is 75% DR, so my natural gameplay already tells me what I need to know to answer this thread's question accurately and factually. If it wasn't for Blessing granting additional survivability, Trinity would not function with a health tanking build.

3 hours ago, Aerikx said:

I know this'll sound crazy but what they should do is treat it similar to Styanax's Subsume.

IE: Lower Eclipse's BASE Damage Reduction to like 45% maybe 50%, but allow it to be effected by Power Strength.

This way, once a Frame is at like like 180% or 200% strength, they hit the DR cap of 90%.

I listed Styanax because with his Tharos Strike a player need only invest I believe 180% strength for a full 100% armor strip.

Relevant:

Edited March 15 by Hexerin

[-ShadowRadiance-]

19 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I was looking at Eclipse to potentially make some squish frames not squish but looking at the announced change the subsume version is a 75% DR capped at 75%

the DPS portion of the skill is an abysmal 30% to the base calculation now but DE justified this heavy double nerf on the back of the skill having an optional damage reduction

anyway the dps potion while suck isn't what I was focused on, I saw a few streamers suggesting the DR portion would be perfectly fine if it started at like maybe 60% and required a LOT more strength investment to bring it upto the same 90% that mirage gets.

what I am curious to know do people think a flat 75% DR (that still has to be built for duration?) is enough to matter for difficult content ?

 

Personally, im planning to use the dmg reduction on my Titania. The only thing that bothers me, is where to fit in total eclipse augment cause i -cant- get rid of anything... unless i change my build entirely. (Aoe Thermal sunder build) which is ideal for Total eclipse. 

 

  edit*

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Most things don't affect Overguard, but there are at least a couple of exceptions.  Not counting invulns and debuffs, Dodge mitigation and Ancient Healer Specter aura do reduce incoming damage to Overguard directly. I'd guess the latter is a bug, and I'd hope the former isn't.

Revenants Thrall ability does. And strips overguard *chuckles* also gives you a slave.

 

Edited March 15 by -ShadowRadiance-

[Drachnyn]

On its own no, 75% DR doesnt get you far. With a bunch of armor, adaptation and HP you could get some mileage out of it though. Regular run of the mill SP missions or netracells shouldnt be a problem with that.

[quxier]

7 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

7 hours ago, Aerikx said:

I know this'll sound crazy but what they should do is treat it similar to Styanax's Subsume.

this was exactly how I saw some streamers predict it would go, a lower starting percentage so it would require a HUGE power investment to get it upto 90% and make it only fully viable for some warframes avoiding it becoming a goto add to every frame like skill

Cap of 90% for armor/shield stripping is like trolling (to use better words!). Here you can armor/shield strip... but not exactly. Whatever your build is you still have to 2x cast it. I would prefer lower starting point and normal cap (100%). And in case of Thanos strike, it's still very active ability so it doesn't have to be nerfed to 90%.

 

[Marvelous_A]

It's more than enough together with Adaptation, Aegis and Shield Gating. And it's also easy to build for.

[Aerikx]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Cap of 90% for armor/shield stripping is like trolling (to use better words!). Here you can armor/shield strip... but not exactly. Whatever your build is you still have to 2x cast it. I would prefer lower starting point and normal cap (100%). And in case of Thanos strike, it's still very active ability so it doesn't have to be nerfed to 90%.

I'm confused by what you mean here.

Tharos Strike is not capped. It fully armor strips if players hit (I believe it's 180% str)

I was saying that DE should lower the DR % on Subsumed Eclipse, so players can choose to build for as much DR as they like via Power Strength, up to a cap of 90% which is what most other DR abilities cap at.

[quxier]

Just now, Aerikx said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Cap of 90% for armor/shield stripping is like trolling (to use better words!). Here you can armor/shield strip... but not exactly. Whatever your build is you still have to 2x cast it. I would prefer lower starting point and normal cap (100%). And in case of Thanos strike, it's still very active ability so it doesn't have to be nerfed to 90%.

I'm confused by what you mean here.

Tharos Strike is not capped. It fully armor strips if players hit (I believe it's 180% str)

 

Yes, Tharos strike is not capped (100% armor/shield strip). I'm saying that it doesn't need 90% cap. 90% would be "troll move".

3 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I was saying that DE should lower the DR % on Subsumed Eclipse, so players can choose to build for as much DR as they like via Power Strength, up to a cap of 90% which is what most other DR abilities cap at.

+1 In this case 90% sound nice.

[Traumtulpe]

7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Source: Myself, a Trinity lifer. Link is 75% DR, so my natural gameplay already tells me what I need to know to answer this thread's question accurately and factually.

That's a great point; I tried Trinity myself a while back and had the exact same experience - with Link only, as great as it is for making you status immune, enemies *will* still kill you.

[Aerikx]

13 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

enemies *will* still kill you.

While I am entirely on board for making Eclipse DR powerful. I just want to state that enemies SHOULD still be able to kill players.

What fun is a game that has no fail condition, threat, or danger to gameplay? 

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

On Merulina's health pool?  The wiki says Total Eclipse doesn't work on that currently.  If you mean on the DR Yareli gets from Merulina, I don't know.  Although I would either expect it to work or expect the wiki to say something about it if it didn't.

Yeah was thinking of the health pool of the fish. It probably woks like it does with Nezha, Eclipse reduces the health damage that passes through after the 90% absorbtion.