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Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]


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On 2019-02-13 at 1:47 PM, LightZodiac said:

And this is a Valkyr build I'm currently working on, once again Valkyr benefits from Armor, Health and Ability Strength and other then that she basically just needs some durability/efficiency.

 

 

On 2019-02-13 at 1:47 PM, LightZodiac said:

Now Arcane Energize is kinda overkill on this build, it really doesn't need it, Valkyr gains energy when she get's damaged and when the energy is full player uses her 4 gains immortality and kills stuff and gets healed in the process... repeats. There are a couple of things to watch out for, nullifier bubbles, energy leeches... but that's what I like about this build, it's not just immortal build like Inaros... player has to play smart to make use of it.

 

your build lacks in strength which will limit survivability (unless you are building for her 4 where that is more than ok) 
I have yet to test my berserker build that does not use any armor mods (designed for star chart up to LV 100 but uses eternal war for armor (+105% armor is nothing to scoff at when you have a base of 700 armor) otherwise if you are building for her 4 bring a melee that has the gladiator mods equipped as that will give you mini blood rush (I have tested this) and with 50% base crit and some of the highest melee damage in the game you will have no problem destroying even the highest level sentiants (i tested her 4 against 20 LV 100 batalists in the simulacrum and after some rampup (cause combo counter) it started to cleave through their health despite the adaptation) also remember that her 3 does open standing finishers and her charge attack is a ground finisher. (it will do 6x and 3x damage respectivly)  

this is my umbral berserker build

I dont have the arcanes they are an "I wish" grace might not be the best bet but I think it is better safe than sorry however on this build gardian  might be better.  I sugest either useing vaserin as a jsut in case but zenerik or naromon could work (this build is fully self suficint provided enimies are highenogh level (sub forty  it can have some porblems with the lack of damage)
the forma works with either 3v's and a -; 3v's and a d; or 2v's, a - and a d

this is my normal Umbral build
https://tennoware.com/warframes/valkyr prime/11211310004w405m402p710y510i005r103y810y910p810f803b103b303
dont fully rank one of the umbrals to fit HA over rage I Feal that grace ginving a chance of +2k ehp to a frame that has almost 12K is not the best use of an arcane and with her heal being so expenceive I feel that it is better to have the chance of a heal (also I would recomend Naromon with this build as it is very melee foucused)

this is her claws build
https://tennoware.com/meleeweapons/valkyr talons/1011011000q900j910c305d803j005q003p903q203l610v
 I think CO will work but I need to test. (i dont have that mod I do however know the the gladiaor mod bounous does work see below)

Finally the statstick for the berserker build
https://tennoware.com/meleeweapons/venka prime/1121100000p703f905j910c305l610g005q003q203f805v
 it bumps the galdiator buff to 4x leting her red crit at combo 2 venka Prime is used as I hear the the pasive still pases over to her 4 if this is not true (i dont know I dont have them I am one part short) then use your favirot melee/ sword and sheild (incase of nulifiers or enemy leach eximi as my build is short on defenses).

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It's actually quite annoying. They introduced umbral mods made to be used on umbral frames but don't release any so we are kinda stuck with the current limitations possibly for years until the devs decides to address that piece of content. I wish they would at least turn them into prime mods with normal polarities if they didn't plan to do anything in that regard.

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4 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

It's actually quite annoying. They introduced umbral mods made to be used on umbral frames but don't release any so we are kinda stuck with the current limitations possibly for years until the devs decides to address that piece of content. I wish they would at least turn them into prime mods with normal polarities if they didn't plan to do anything in that regard.

they are better than what a prime version would be with the exception of the health and armor mods which are already Rank 10's also the cost helps limit the power creep that they would add other whise

 

Edited by spirit_of_76
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24 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

they are better than what a prime version would be with the exception of the health and armor mods which are already Rank 10's also the cost helps limit the power creep that they would add other whise

 

Their set bonus is, not the individual mods. The 44% of umbral intensify is exactly what primed intensify would have been. Furthermore you can't forma it so you need to give up more powerful mods if you decide to use them in combination making the trade off a pure survival choice.

Also no, there's no power creep linked to umbral mods. Only frames who benefit from health and/or armor uses them, that's very niche by default unless you struggle that much in this game and even then giving up 2 mod slot for survival is reducing your dps by quite a lot. In fact, if umbral mods were fully slottable it would reduce the already established power creep by a good amount making survival more wanted than sheer power. 

Edited by Shelusine
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1 hour ago, Shelusine said:

Their set bonus is, not the individual mods. The 44% of umbral intensify is exactly what primed intensify would have been. Furthermore you can't forma it so you need to give up more powerful mods if you decide to use them in combination making the trade off a pure survival choice.

Also no, there's no power creep linked to umbral mods. Only frames who benefit from health and/or armor uses them, that's very niche by default unless you struggle that much in this game and even then giving up 2 mod slot for survival is reducing your dps by quite a lot. In fact, if umbral mods were fully slottable it would reduce the already established power creep by a good amount making survival more wanted than sheer power. 

not really I can make a stronger Valk with the Umbrals than I can without. the requirement is dose the frame want 2-3 of the umbral mods.  Valk would use all three of the non umbrals as would nidus, Inaros uses 2 as does Oberon.  if it is only 2 then the build is not even hard and while Rage is not as good as HA it is only 5% less energy pre-health lost you are not forced into using steal charge I have an umbral Oberon build that uses growing power in the works (i finished the build theory crafting but still need to farm the mods) it even has one free slot so I can use augments.  also when I use Umbral intensity I rarely am giving anything other than one forma up if it is on a non-Umbral frame, even then I rarely need to add extra forma especially if it is a prime.  often it lets me use other mods to cover gaps in my kit because it often hits or exceeds a threshold without a negative.  For intensify to do the same thing it would require 2 slots (one normal and an exilis) for only 1% more power strength (45% over 44%) costing 11 drain with the 2 needed polarities costing a guaranteed 1 forma it would likely be 15 drain without the forma. over one slot at 16 drain letting me use the exalis slot for things like enemy sense, range, cast speed, aviator... it all depends on how you build and what you use.   

Edited by spirit_of_76
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5 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Also no, there's no power creep linked to umbral mods. Only frames who benefit from health and/or armor uses them, that's very niche by default unless you struggle that much in this game and even then giving up 2 mod slot for survival is reducing your dps by quite a lot. In fact, if umbral mods were fully slottable it would reduce the already established power creep by a good amount making survival more wanted than sheer power. 

It's already power creep. Them being Umbra makes sure you've at least invested enough to get there, making it "free" is only going to make the power creep readily available and set mandatory mods for 90% of frames. Having UV + UI is better than, E.G. intensify+secrets so they're not exactly that niche for tanks.

 

On ‎2019‎-‎02‎-‎13 at 8:43 PM, wokfadz said:

I'm building a super tanky inaros. 

A lot of things were said already, but if you could share your planned build? Just so we can discuss it.

 

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7 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

not really I can make a stronger Valk with the Umbrals than I can without. the requirement is dose the frame want 2-3 of the umbral mods.  Valk would use all three of the non umbrals as would nidus, Inaros uses 2 as does Oberon.  if it is only 2 then the build is not even hard and while Rage is not as good as HA it is only 5% less energy pre-health lost you are not forced into using steal charge I have an umbral Oberon build that uses growing power in the works (i finished the build theory crafting but still need to farm the mods) it even has one free slot so I can use augments.  also when I use Umbral intensity I rarely am giving anything other than one forma up if it is on a non-Umbral frame, even then I rarely need to add extra forma especially if it is a prime.  often it lets me use other mods to cover gaps in my kit because it often hits or exceeds a threshold without a negative.  For intensify to do the same thing it would require 2 slots (one normal and an exilis) for only 1% more power strength (45% over 44%) costing 11 drain with the 2 needed polarities costing a guaranteed 1 forma it would likely be 15 drain without the forma. over one slot at 16 drain letting me use the exalis slot for things like enemy sense, range, cast speed, aviator... it all depends on how you build and what you use.   

No, you can't. You can make a tankier valk, this is a very different concept. Same for inaros and all the mentioned frames. Theses are frames who as I mentioned benefits from health and armor in their gameplay but the stat isn't mandatory and thus doesn't make them "stronger". You wont have an oberon or an inaros and even less a valkyr wipe a map faster because of those, that just not a thing mathematically. Arguably you last longer in endless but who cares ? 

For the sake of argument we could say that melee frame being directly tied to doing melee see their dps increased through survivability but melee frames are in the "weakest" frames in the game due to that very limitation in range. I wouldn't see a rebalancding through such means as an issue at all. 

2 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

It's already power creep. Them being Umbra makes sure you've at least invested enough to get there, making it "free" is only going to make the power creep readily available and set mandatory mods for 90% of frames. Having UV + UI is better than, E.G. intensify+secrets so they're not exactly that niche for tanks.

 

1) It's like saying primed continuity is mandatory on 90% of the frames which is a big duh if a prime variant of a mandatory mod is available.

2) There's no instance where you use intensify + secret. Furthermore the solo UI is already a mandatory and perfectly solo slottable umbral mod. UI+secrets is better than UI+UV

3) That's the goal, if it becomes that way survivability becomes more "wanted" you give up on power increasing mods and thus by default reduce the established power creep.

4) This one is more of a bland statement because I don't understand your logic, what's the point of not seeing any power increase in an rpg game ? That's literally the reason you farm in those games, they introduce stronger enemies so you need to get stronger equipement and so on, what's the point of staying with the same old thing for years without them moving forward ? Regardless of anything, I must say that it's a concept I don't understand from your part of the community. 

Edited by Shelusine
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1 hour ago, Shelusine said:

No, you can't. You can make a tankier valk, this is a very different concept. Same for inaros and all the mentioned frames. Theses are frames who as I mentioned benefits from health and armor in their gameplay but the stat isn't mandatory and thus doesn't make them "stronger". You wont have an oberon or an inaros and even less a valkyr wipe a map faster because of those, that just not a thing mathematically. Arguably you last longer in endless but who cares ? 

1) It's like saying primed continuity is mandatory on 90% of the frames which is a big duh if a prime variant of a mandatory mod is available.

2) There's no instance where you use intensify + secret. Furthermore the solo UI is already a mandatory and perfectly solo slottable umbral mod. UI+secrets is better than UI+UV

3) That's the goal, if it becomes that way survivability becomes more "wanted" you give up on power increasing mods and thus by default reduce the established power creep.

4) This one is more of a bland statement because I don't understand your logic, what's the point of not seeing any power increase in an rpg game ? That's literally the reason you farm in those games, they introduce stronger enemies so you need to get stronger equipement and so on, what's the point of staying with the same old thing for years without them moving forward ? Regardless of anything, I must say that it's a concept I don't understand from your part of the community. 

Before I answer, I'd like to get in between you and Spirit, discussing Valkyr. With umbral mods you do make her stronger, without them I wouldn't be able to reach 250+ strength for more armor and attack speed on my EW build. By extension her Exalted is also stronger.

1) Duration as a stat is not on the same level of HP/Strength and there are a more mods for duration and range than strength and efficiency. Duration isn't even that unique in function, since if we look at it in a broad sense, it reduces the energy expenditure in time, close to what efficiency does.

Duration is not needed on that many frames, while any frame using either vitality + fiber or vitality + intensify will benefit and those are quite a few more.

2) There's no instance where you use intensify + secrets. It's a perfectly possible scenario. Here is how the power creep works:

Switching a build with vitality, intensify and secrets for UI and UV leaves you with +1% strength, +110% hp and a mod slot.

After all, you can forma all you want, but there are only 8 mod slots.

So overall, not only do you end up with higher stats, but you even get to put another mod in.

3) Survivability is already wanted, apart from the rare Ivara/Octavia 4h cheese builds, I've yet to see on the forums a build that doesn't have at least one survivability mod and is meant for above level 50.

4) My logic is simple. In the current state of the game we solo Eidolons and Orbs, last as long as we can stave of boredom in Arbitrations and Eso and this is done with not much effort involved. This game (thankfully) doesn't offer the same old hamster wheel every 3 months, to artificially prolong it's "late game" with bigger numbers, its it tries to add different activities. Therefore we don't need more power.

Also a good RPG "increases" power by adding diversity to your play, not by giving you bigger numbers, as the latest AAA titles leave you to believe.

Edited by Ver1dian
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On 2019-02-14 at 3:26 AM, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

This problem was meant to be. The umbral warframe mods are to be used on Umbra. Sure, you can forma the hell out of your other frames, but they still won't fit. It's nice to see people talking about their umbral builds, they surely put a lot of thought and effort in them, but personally I wouldn't do that. Tempting, but feels like you are sweating too much for something won't work perfectly anyway. And if you forma too many slots, there's not much chance for variability either.

Umbral melee Saryn though 👌🏿

All 3 Umbral mods and;

Efficiency: 150%

Duration: 50%

Range: 250%

Strength: 100%

With rage 👌🏿

And regenartive molt 👌🏿

And a condition overload Zaw 👌🏿

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56 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

Before I answer, I'd like to get in between you and Spirit, discussing Valkyr. With umbral mods you do make her stronger, without them I wouldn't be able to reach 250+ strength for more armor and attack speed on my EW build. By extension her Exalted is also stronger.

1) Duration as a stat is not on the same level of HP/Strength and there are a more mods for duration and range than strength and efficiency. Duration isn't even that unique in function, since if we look at it in a broad sense, it reduces the energy expenditure in time, close to what efficiency does.

Duration is not needed on that many frames, while any frame using either vitality + fiber or vitality + intensify will benefit and those are quite a few more.

2) There's no instance where you use intensify + secrets. It's a perfectly possible scenario. Here is how the power creep works:

Switching a build with vitality, intensify and secrets for UI and UV leaves you with +1% strength, +110% hp and a mod slot.

After all, you can forma all you want, but there are only 8 mod slots.

So overall, not only do you end up with higher stats, but you even get to put another mod in.

3) Survivability is already wanted, apart from the rare Ivara/Octavia 4h cheese builds, I've yet to see on the forums a build that doesn't have at least one survivability mod and is meant for above level 50.

4) My logic is simple. In the current state of the game we solo Eidolons and Orbs, last as long as we can stave of boredom in Arbitrations and Eso and this is done with not much effort involved. This game (thankfully) doesn't offer the same old hamster wheel every 3 months, to artificially prolong it's "late game" with bigger numbers, its it tries to add different activities. Therefore we don't need more power.

Also a good RPG "increases" power by adding diversity to your play, not by giving you bigger numbers, as the latest AAA titles leave you to believe.

You can reach 250+ strength easily on any frame and even go far beyond that. The only scenario where you wouldn't be able to would be if you slot vitality/fiber which doesn't make you stronger just tankier as previously said. That extend to the exalted which you usually don't use for damage anyway

1) Duration is exactly on the same level as strength, HP and armor are subpar stat increase, it is directly linked to your ability to play the game, it isn't mandatory or that important at all. Except maybe on some specific frame who relies on HP to do their things but that's still niche. Duration is much more generalized as a needed stat and primed continuity even more generalized as a needed mod for fleeting. 

2) Yeah, going by that logic there's a scenario where everyone use ammo case as well, that's still a bad choice in every sense of the term. I don't get your argument. I don't even know what you are trying to address here relative to what I said.

3) On these forums, maybe. I mean it's a forum where someone tried to argue that the only valuable arcane is arcane guardian. Clearly there's a trend for survivability here. But the reality is that mathematically it doesn't matter one bit, heck I did my sorties with an unmoded excal and a braton for the lols. Survivablity is just handicaping you in this game, it prevents you from clearing areas a lot faster than you would without it. Not saying that it isn't an interesting stat, I mean I have frames with umbral mods because it's fun but it doesn't make these frames stronger at all. I am just slower and take more damage for free and that's I think an interesting bit. HP is fun, not objectively strong. Hence there's no reason not to give more access to it. 

4) That's your opinion and I respect that but I don't agree with the viability of such thing. Numbers shows clearly that warframe gain new players once that activity comes but fails to retain player base because there's actually nothing to retain them. That lack of "hamster wheel" is part of that issue. That's the objective truth. Furthermore the rest of my argument already explain it isn't a boost in power.

AAA games reduce grinds and make a game easy to pull as many casuals in. That doesn't make it good, just profitable financially. (and none of my suggestions goes against that)

Edited by Shelusine
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2 hours ago, Shelusine said:

No, you can't. You can make a tankier valk, this is a very different concept. Same for inaros and all the mentioned frames. Theses are frames who as I mentioned benefits from health and armor in their gameplay but the stat isn't mandatory and thus doesn't make them "stronger". You wont have an oberon or an inaros and even less a valkyr wipe a map faster because of those, that just not a thing mathematically. Arguably you last longer in endless but who cares ?

 

I can build a Valk with similar strength to my Umbral build but it will have more downsides like efficiency, duration and range because it can't make use of a "free" transient fortitude whose cost is not to the usability of the frame but to the total capacity of a frame.  Also, Valk as a melee specialist wants health and armor so she can take a hit because she does not have damage mitigation outside of a massive armor poll giving her the second highest EHP before abilities.    There is not a Valk build in the game that does not use heath and armor unless you are building for her 4 and you would still use some health and armor so that you have time to regain your energy.  

You argue that it does not increase the power of a nidus, Oberon, inaros, Valk because survivability does not = damage but for tanky frames survivability does equal damage because it means that I can walk toward the enemy to hit them with my melee, stand there and shoot regain infinite energy form the damage dealt by my foes letting my sustain costly abilities that protect frailer DPS Frames or just deal damage more effectively.

With more health and armor, My valk can spend more time attacking and leaping into combat with a melee fed by the blood of fallen foes and not spend time swapping between her 4 and another weapon for healing.  

My Oberon has more health and more armor (from his 2,3 combo) than a non-umbral version with better efficiency and range than a comparable a build with comparable strength and again he draws strength form how long he can last not his damage output he CCs and Heal's slaying ads is not his job protection the squad is.

Same goes for inaros or nidus they don’t care about dealing damage they have guns for that they care about surviving everything the enemy can throw at them so they can group up the enemy and buff/support the team.  

As stated by @Ver1dian what the Umbral mods give are options on how to build a frame.  Gara might not need a lot of health but her 4 scales off of her armor and enemy health (infested boilers are the healthiest unit in the game) by using UI and UF I can make her 1 and 4 stronger than I without increasing the cost of her 2 (form maintenance or on cast).  Is it an optimal build, maybe I will need to look at the stats the thing is it offers more options more way to try things.  

I forsee that as more umbral fames are released we will get more umbral mods (redirection, fast deflection, stretch, and streamline are the most likely  but I would rather Umbral Rage or more umbral utility than frame ability affecting mods) you will have to choose do I want to have a cheap more specialized build or an expensive jack of all trades build.   
 

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1 hour ago, spirit_of_76 said:

 

I can build a Valk with similar strength to my Umbral build but it will have more downsides like efficiency, duration and range because it can't make use of a "free" transient fortitude whose cost is not to the usability of the frame but to the total capacity of a frame.  Also, Valk as a melee specialist wants health and armor so she can take a hit because she does not have damage mitigation outside of a massive armor poll giving her the second highest EHP before abilities.    There is not a Valk build in the game that does not use heath and armor unless you are building for her 4 and you would still use some health and armor so that you have time to regain your energy.  

You argue that it does not increase the power of a nidus, Oberon, inaros, Valk because survivability does not = damage but for tanky frames survivability does equal damage because it means that I can walk toward the enemy to hit them with my melee, stand there and shoot regain infinite energy form the damage dealt by my foes letting my sustain costly abilities that protect frailer DPS Frames or just deal damage more effectively.

With more health and armor, My valk can spend more time attacking and leaping into combat with a melee fed by the blood of fallen foes and not spend time swapping between her 4 and another weapon for healing.  

My Oberon has more health and more armor (from his 2,3 combo) than a non-umbral version with better efficiency and range than a comparable a build with comparable strength and again he draws strength form how long he can last not his damage output he CCs and Heal's slaying ads is not his job protection the squad is.

Same goes for inaros or nidus they don’t care about dealing damage they have guns for that they care about surviving everything the enemy can throw at them so they can group up the enemy and buff/support the team.  

As stated by @Ver1dian what the Umbral mods give are options on how to build a frame.  Gara might not need a lot of health but her 4 scales off of her armor and enemy health (infested boilers are the healthiest unit in the game) by using UI and UF I can make her 1 and 4 stronger than I without increasing the cost of her 2 (form maintenance or on cast).  Is it an optimal build, maybe I will need to look at the stats the thing is it offers more options more way to try things.  

I forsee that as more umbral fames are released we will get more umbral mods (redirection, fast deflection, stretch, and streamline are the most likely  but I would rather Umbral Rage or more umbral utility than frame ability affecting mods) you will have to choose do I want to have a cheap more specialized build or an expensive jack of all trades build.   
 

You'll have to show me what build you use because I don't see a scenario where it's possible. Also, melee specialists "benefits" from health and armor, it doesn't make them stronger at all as their kit already allows them to tank without any need for those stats. Valkyr 2 and 4 already allows her to perfectly tank level 200 enemies without any investment in those stats, that's already endless level which as already said no one really cares about. Also, most valk build don't use health and armor, actually even I as someone who really don't play the frame knows that. You just press 2 and spin through the level, the higher your strength, the faster it goes. Nothing can kill or harm you. Even the most used build on warframe builder agrees with that fact.

For the rest, Survivability is a comfort not a strength for tanky frame. You make it sounds like they can't walk toward their target or shoot them etc without health and armor  or that being able to stand still increase your dps which is completely wrong. Don't get me wrong it's fun but there's no difference between being mobile and non-mobile dps wise. In fact being mobile removes the need for health and armor so your dps increase by default.

So, again, no there really isn't any power creep. If anything what we learned from this discussion is that it would increase the power of players (like you I assume ?) who likes to stand still and do nothing substantial for those who already move around except adding more fun. 

Its almost been a year without umbral frame, I wouldn't expect to feature to be touched upon for a long time. (which again is my complain)

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what are you guys worry about so much?  We are getting umbra forma which we were hyped about it long ago and now they are unleashing more umbra mods so its obvious we are getting the umbra forma soon and HOPEFULLY SOON.  So everyone don't have talk about the umbra mods being massive pizza eater on our frame.

Edited by ChaoticEdge
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58 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

I wonder if it means no more Umbra frames 😕

i dunno

we were told it would be its own series, my guess this is a way to make normal primes semi useful against sentient to a degree , and if paired with paracesis they can be close enough that it wont anger dedicated prime users i think

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

i dunno

we were told it would be its own series, my guess this is a way to make normal primes semi useful against sentient to a degree , and if paired with paracesis they can be close enough that it wont anger dedicated prime users i think

Where is my dedicated Volt Umbra?😏

I want my Sentient Nuker while my Operator is running around swinging the  Paracesis...whoops?

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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2 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

dunno but i have my dedicated excal umbra  🤔

Don’t be a jerk, Mak.

We know YOUR wish came true...

I want my Alt-Discharge Sentient Nuker while my Operator is running around swinging the  Paracesis...whoops?

Shouldn’t have said that???

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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