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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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46 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

I think it's best then to have different weapons have different efficiency costs on their blocking. Like sword and boards have 90+ reduction on a block, given it's a shield. Daggers, on the other hand, have no efficiency reduction, hell maybe even cost more to block given such a poor weapon for blocking.

As for the combo counter for blocked attacks, yes. yes. yes. Again, really useful for shields.

Maybe also add little sparks that happen when reflecting attacks to add to feeling that reflecting shots.

54 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

Something to consider for UI elements, maybe start calling them Combo levels on the UI? lvl 0, 1, 1.5, 2, and so on.  This way it moves away from the mindset that this is multiplying damage. Just to throw a wild card in the UI parking lot on this, But maybe for those using the Guardian or Blood Rush have the number change in color to give an idea of the crit range to match the crit range colors. Maybe have an escalating slide up of brightness to show status? Again just a crazy idea to throw out there.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

Yes

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!

About damn time, I run throw melees a lot just for this reason. Some weapons combo really well with melee. I do hope perhaps you all can work in a way for shields to be held with one-handed secondaries.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

I am concerned about this one. Some weapons like the sword and shields could use this because it's a *@##$ to do a charged attack unless you remove the stance. Some, like the Kraken stance for machetes, are a pain because there are two very close stances and easy to mess up so they can benefit from the change. Others though like Cleaving Whirlwind really have unique mechanics in them that are a lot of fun and I would hate to see them go away. Then there are ones like for Katanas that all 3 feel so dramatically different, I don't know what would be best there.  I don't envy you guys on the work on what you have to decide here.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.

I'm glad about this, I liked what I saw on stream today. Slam attacks are so clumsy to use and some weapons have some fun slam abilities that I'd love to see them mixed in

 

 

One other thing to throw into your parking lot and consider, maybe having a catalyst/forma type thing that can be done to non-zaw melee weapons to put an arcane in them? Maybe make them gildable too? I know that may have unintended consequences but I would like to see given some of the effects available on arcane. That could possibly even open the door wider for faction specific arcanes from the syndicates.

 

Thats all. so far so good otherwise.

 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

As I understood, the free key that now's channeling will be a key for different movements with the stance. If this is like that, will not be so good considering most of the stances have 3 or 4 combos. But if there's a way to have all differents movements in the keyboard will be good, and maybe an option to switch the key for every combo in the seccion where you now see the combos would be a great idea.

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7 minutes ago, BaconPinata said:

"Dodge canceling any melee attack!"

While this isn't a bad thing, it is in no way worthy of an exclamation mark. How often do you actually end up needing to dodge while meleeing? It interrupts your combo so many will simply absorb the damage. There aren't many instances where you HAVE to dodge an incoming attack or you will take a considerable amount of damage. I won't say it won't be nice for bombard rockets and one of the 17,000 slam attacks found in the game, but it doesn't come close to making up for this.

Personally, I was really excited for this. Sick of getting stuck in uninterruptible combo animations (looking at you, Brutal Tide) while I get shot to death. Most useful on melee Limbo, as you could escape to the rift at any time.

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  • Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

a handy thing about this was when enemies/objective spawned in the walls and we had no aoe wall abilities. I hope something is done so walls arnt an issue without punch through or a frame without AOE abilities

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I feel like the most heartbreaking part about this is that despite all the good feedback, thought out suggestions, and valid arguments against some/most of these proposed changes is that they'll fall on deaf ears.

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Just now, Zetaikenshi said:

I feel like the most heartbreaking part about this is that despite all the good feedback, thought out suggestions, and valid arguments against some/most of these proposed changes is that they'll fall on deaf ears.

Ya i feel like DE hasnt taken our suggestions in a long while

Were still not getting that scaled kuva update after an entire thread begged for it

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Also, how about making maiming strike apply to heavy attacks instead of slide attacks? Less spammable, less cheesable, justifiably powerful.

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All I have to say is THANK YOU for finally addressing maiming strike and spin attack builds. Like many other essential nerfs, this one should have come a lot sooner, but it's still a development that makes me more optimistic about the future.

 

How are you going to encourage the use of different weapon classes, though? Cause if the main metric to measure the usefulness of melee remains the amount of time it takes to kill an enemy, you'd need an incredibly well balanced set of stats as to not have any weapon type outclass another in their respective niche.

1 hour ago, SpecialistOps said:

Good. Spin2Win is one of the worst metas this game has seen.


It is literally the son of coptering, the original sin.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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3 minutes ago, -Mittens- said:

Also, I speak for those who spin2win in the sense that those people enjoy efficiency when killing. It's satisfying for them to spin or cast an ult and watch a whole room of dudes vanish.

Doing nothing but spin to win is not fun. Using really good guns, being out paced by an single spin to win user is not fun. 

I've had my fill of Spin to Win and I've only played for like 9 months now. I have zero idea how anyone can find Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E,  etc fun. 

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DE, you’re gonna have to address melee sustain, combo power ups, and various other aspects of how the system works, but I think part of the issue (as always) lies in the following:

 

DE, you guys don’t think of your game as a horde shooter. You think of it as a limited tactical shooter, where players maneuver around and take out small groups of enemies at a time. That’s fine and all, but that is very much not the game which you have actually built. You keep trying to solve the problem of players efficiently killing lots of enemies by nerfing and removing the tactics used, but you never seem to wonder why it is that you seem to perceive an entirely different game to the one that the community is actually playing.

 

 

For reference: the idea of a tactical shooter styled Warframe, with overall power level reduced, more of an emphasis on stealth, tactics, aim, positioning, and clever use of powers? I’d like that. A lot. It’s just that that game? Is not the one which you made. You made a horde shooter.

Edited by BornWithTeeth
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Not at all a fan of the melee combo counter not effecting base attack damage, I'm mixed on the power attacks using combo counters, mixed on the channeling (life strike?), the dive attacks are hekking cool, I'm mixed on the range thing and not hitting through walls, memeing strike was never going to last, I'm all for more universal combo inputs so long as those inputs still let you use some of the freaking awesome combos in things like defiled snapdragon and final harbinger. I still haven't finalized my thoughts on this but they are mostly on the negative end of the spectrum.

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Oookay these changes... As someone that regularly uses non-slide melees I'm honestly not sure how I should react to these.

Definitely need to see more footage and especially the stat changes for melee. The lack of melee combo means the buff has to be very significant if melees are supposed to compete with guns/abilities.

The reload button is empty if you're looking for a free button. I don't think it's necessary to put blocking and channeling on the same button. And how will this affect channeling mods like Life Strike?

And for the love of all things holy just get rid of the dang energy drain from channeling. The block change is already on the right direction, but honestly? Just remove channeling entirely and keep the block change, that's one less thing to worry about. The 'cool factor' should be gotten from slaughtering enemies with the enhanced melee controls, not from the LED attached to your sword.

I'm extremely skeptical of that heavy attack change. If it's still as slow as our current charged attack chances are it's never gonna see much use. And certain heavy attack animations are incredibly lacking. Also what's going to happen to melees with 2 forms of heavy attacks like the Blade & Whip? 

And how will these changes affect mods that relies on combo counter such as Body Count/Drifting Contact, Blood Rush, and Weeping Wounds? Don't tell me the counter is still going to decay or vanish instantly if I don't use a charged attack in x seconds... Same thing with Naramon passive and Wukong's passive.

Targeted slam attack is sweet.

Melee hits seems to have a little bit more impact now so that's cool too.

Range buff seems fine, again, need to test when it's implemented to find something to complain about.

Dual wielding is nice.

Dodge cancel is f**king sick.

Overall... I don't know? Controls seems to be much better now, but I'm going to have to see how it performs in actual combat before I could properly judge it.

EDIT : Also, consider buffing weapon swap speed with these changes? Part of the reason why spin2win is really popular is that you don't have to switch from your guns to use it.

Edited by TotallyLagging
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Speaking as a player who have developed a lot of affection for Zaws, I was of the opinion that melee combat was workable, but had way too much complexities and redundancy. 

I agree with the change and reasoning for splitting heavy and light attacks to make combos more interesting. In the devstream, you pointed out that there was a lot of combo when player used the lowest, most available combo to spam melee. For this reason, stances were only relevant for their spam attack. Combos were also hindered by the use of only one button, which made it really unwieldy and strengthened the want for a simple spam attack. I think that breaking down heavy attacks and light attacks is a really good idea, which is inline with the latest high profile melee-centric games (Dark Souls, Nier Automata). 

With that said, I don't entirely agree with the removal of channeling, nor with the reasoning as to why it wasn't popular. What's more, I believe the developers already know why channeling was a dud: it doesn't meaningfully change what the player does. This is exactly the same reason @[DE]Steve stated when he talked about Shield Gating and why it was not implemented (it doesn't really change how we play). By using channel build, all I do is click one more button to do more damage. While there are a lot of interesting mods to alter the behavior of channeling, after having experimenting with quite a lot of builds, I can say that you cannot afford the mod slots for a gimmick effect like armor during channel, because you really need as much damage mods as possible. It is really difficult to stray from the cookie cutter builds for melee and to still feel like you're using an actual weapon, as opposed to a wet noodle. 

With this in mind, I personally believed that melee channel and the combo system could both be saved in one go. The solution would be to take the mobility attacks that are hidden in long combo strings, and to remap them so that they are activated by channeling. I think this is a viable solution for a few reasons: 

  • There are a lot of assets that can be reused (virtually all combo can be broken down)
  • There are a lot of way to increase a weapon class' identity (whips' channels are long ranged and stationary, katanas' channels have high mobility and "three pace" slices)
  • Stances can be used to change the channel's move (whip stance #1 gives a high accuracy and long range single target lash, whip stance #2 gives a broad slicing arc + mobility) instead of entire combo tree
  • Channeling now impacts gameplay, mobile melee attacks can be used with a lot more reliability and is distinct from normal melee attacks

This is my stance on the matter. Either way, I really liked what I saw on the stream today, and I hope that I gave good feedback to help with the design of the new melee system. I would like to conclude with a wishlist for melee 3.0: 

  • Speaking as someone who didn't use Spin 2 Win with whips, I would really like it if the whips could have a reliable way to "snipe" enemies with a single high-power lash. 
  • Speaking as someone trying a lot of gimmick builds, I would rather like if there were mod options to build a true "one-shot" weapon: right now, optimal melee builds that you can bring anywhere relies on critical chance stacking or Spin 2 Win. I really wish there was a way to make a one stroke kill with katanas reliably.

Thanks for reading! 

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Hi there @[DE]Rebecca! Thanks for the update.

If channeling is going to be removed, what is going to happen to the Exodia Triumph and Exodia Valor since those arcanes increase channeling damage? Will they now increase base damage? How will they work?

Thanks!

Edited by Jarriaga

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I'm pretty happy with this overall.  I like the changes to slam where I don't have to point directly at the ground.  Its more of an angle attack.  Having another button for combos is longer overdue as well.  Like others though I'm curious to see what will happen to certain mods like Life Strike and Blood Rush.  I'll be happy to see Spin2Win go though.  It will be curious to see how strong the new heavy attacks through combo meter are though, and just how big a damage buff melee gets.

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Have you guys ever just took all of your mods off and ran low level stuff?  That is fun.  Many if us forgot what it was like to enjoy Warframe, instead being hooked in the grind.  I love this game because the movement and combat is fun.  That's it.  

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I really don't like channeled blocking. I like running with half my energy into a room while Rage/ Hunter Adrenaline + damage reduction of normal blocking + for example Gara’s Splinter Storm filling my energy up. 

I really hope you think about that.

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5 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

Doing nothing but spin to win is not fun. Using really good guns, being out paced by an single spin to win user is not fun. 

I've had my fill of Spin to Win and I've only played for like 9 months now. I have zero idea how anyone can find Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E, Shift+Ctrl+E,  etc fun. 

"those people enjoy efficiency when killing. It's satisfying for them to spin or cast an ult and watch a whole room of dudes vanish."

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2 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

Have you guys ever just took all of your mods off and ran low level stuff?  That is fun.  Many if us forgot what it was like to enjoy Warframe, instead being hooked in the grind.  I love this game because the movement and combat is fun.  That's it.  

What’s that got to do with DE removing melee sustain from the game and acting like it’s a buff?

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

any change to channeled blocking will be great...the current energy loss PER HIT of anything is bad.

IF it was a constant energy drain..what would be the minimum? Would it be as low as 1 energy/sec? (taking into account 2 current channeling efficiency mods and zenurik's passive?)

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

how will this affect Excal's exalted blade? will his basic attack NOT have energy waves on it? dear god i hope so...that is the main reason i dislike using excal...and other excal players

Im looking forward to proper combos now that we have a dedicated heavy attack button....maybe we will finally get rid of the need for hold combos and pause combos? (ALWAYS a hassle with high attack speeds)

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

how will this change affect current mods that use combo counter? (ie, higher crit/status chance and longer combo duration)

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

still wont stop the annoying and boring memestrick meta (yes i hate it...but its sadly the only thing that does tons of damage currently after abilites and other weapons have fallen)

Edited by Kalvorax

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I love the changes to the melee mechanics... but what about Focus? I hope you do understand that this is indirect nerf to fast Focus farming for people that doesn't have much time to play. Will you finally consider buffing Focus gains for the daily cap during casual playtime? There is no reason for it to be such a slogfest. Please give us alternative ways to gain Focus outside Adaro/Onslaught by buffing the focus gains during normal missions, I have a bad feeling that it will be extremely needed when reworked melee hits live servers.

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17 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

it's an huge bandage that DE is ripping off right now, no matter what they do with melee rework an large number of players are gonna be mad over it. Spin To Win, killing enemies from an room over, melee's phasing trough walls can and IMHO should be gone. the biggest outrage will come from people who bought/worked hard to get their "god" whip rivens and such. It sucks for them, but when their whips even out pace tiberon prime with multishot, crit chance and crit damage. Something is wrong and it was clear to DE, it should of been clear to everyone. 

If melee is supposed to be so far better then guns, why are guns even in the game? 

The way I see it, melee is (and should be) more powerful than guns because you have to get in close to use it, range rivens and Primed reach notwithstanding.

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1 hour ago, lihimsidhe said:

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system.  Without going into too much detail the player does not have to choose between 'firearm mode' or 'melee mode' as a Tenno does.  It also has a unified combo system.  Meaning that regardless of the weapon a DMC player has the combos they learned for their first weapon works on any subsequent weapon they acquire.

While there is a lot more to DMC's combat than that, Capcom's approach has created a combat system that is near peerless in its execution.

Warframe is a different game on many levels so a straight copy and paste into Warframe wouldn't work well as any of us would hope.  However, there are 4 things Warframe can import from DMC that would work wonders:

  • The elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode'.  
  • The implementation of universal combos.
  • A massive reduction in aerial attack cooldowns.
  • A way for Tenno to launch enemies into the air a moderate distance (think of an Operator's Void Blast but sends an enemy straight up).

How It Would Work

Quick Melee Is the Gateway to All Combos. Any combo a stance grants can be executed with the quick melee button.  However, considering Berserker and Fury are a thing, the commands to execute said combos need to account for this.

Combos Have Universal Inputs. Once a new player learns the combos for their MK-1 Bo or Skana, they now know how to execute all combos Warframe will throw at them.

At Least Two Types of Combos Per Weapon. An AoE focused one (because Warframe is a horde game) and a single target focused one.

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can press a single key to block or a combination of keys to block and they... block.  No switching to a dedicated melee mode to do so.

Channeling Becomes a Universal Buff Mode. Available at the press of a single key, the Warframe surges with void power. A warframe's parkour, firearms, melee, blocks, and abilities are all buffed in some way.  Adjust the energy economy to be proportionate to the buff granted. The reason channeling isn't in widespread use is because by time the average player switches to melee mode to use it, Mr. xXSpin2WinYOLOXx just cleared half the room.  It's as the old saying goes: if you can't beat them, join them.  

Aerial Combat. As it stands now there is a 1-2 second delay between aerial attacks and I have no idea why.  If players could launch enemies into the air and pursue them with flurries of aerial attacks, I would wager a lot of Tenno would find that fun and useful.

Make Wall Attacks Useful, Please. I have tried my hardest to use these in combat and despite my best efforts they just aren't.  Simply allow them to travel in the direction a player is aiming alongside with a massive buff to distance traveled and just like that, they are now worthwhile.

Charged Attacks. Take inspiration from Ninja Gaiden.  If charged attacks evoke a sense of power and unleash a massively amped up attack, I'd wager Tenno would use them.  Especially in solo.

Not all Down Attacks Should Be Slam Attacks. A Tenno's option while in the air is either to do an attack that prevents them from attacking for 1-2 seconds, period or a slam attack.  There are times I'm looking down just to track the enemy but I know if I attack I'll slam and put myself in danger. Give us more options of what to do while airborne.

I feel if the above suggestions were followed not only would it be of a lesser scope than what DE has planned but it would be a more accessible system overall that gives rise to depth built on the backs of proven legends such as Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden.

The biggest problem still remains though: DE could create the most exquisite combat system known to man BUT the enemies in Warframe are dumb as #*!%.  Fodder.  Trash mobs.  But that's a whole other day.  A whole other story.

While it would be nice to have all these functions available on a unified combat mode, keep in mind that console controllers are pressed for space as it is.

Warframe, when it first released, had a unified mode, and no melee-only combat. There was no channelling, no blocking without the Reflect mod, no combo counter, or anything. When they did Melee 2.0, they were able to add all those features, because they could repurpose some of the buttons that previously were bound to gun-related combat.

If there were a unified mode, how could we block or channel or have charged attacks without using any additional buttons?

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Whats gonna happen with Life Strike, and how is it going to affect us to be draining energy constantly?

Edited by XzWasPzX
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