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[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD


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1 hour ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey! AoE will spread Spores with Toxic Lash active 🙂

I was worried that this meant Toxic Lash was basically mandatory in order to spread spores with weapons, but my gas Ignis still appears to do the job nicely with no buff required.  

A few other things worry me, but I'll reserve judgement until I have time to do an elite Onslaught run or two.

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Long Time Saryn Fanboy here,

I have always seen Saryn as an allrounder frame that you could play any mission with any build. With the Upsite for Fans to play her with the synergy of weapons(toxin  & AoE) to maximise her potential. And that was an Amazing and fun playstyle. Yes there were the optimized  "Hydron AFK" builds  ala spam 1 to win, but would be also stopped by limiting the spore castings/s or denying the player to place them on molt. So i dont quite see the point of a rework. That said here are  my 2 cent for the rework:

 

Spores:

First of all the DmgType, Viral is awesome for the fact af being equally strong among all enemy types and scaling power with enemy lvl(without being op). Corrosive on the other Hand seems ok against mid-lvl infested, S#&$ against corpus and usefull for armor. So usefull in fact it almost seems like a bandaid.

For the DMG numbers themself it is an astonishing hard nerf. At first I thought it looked nice with up to severel thousand DMG per tick, but its so incredible hard to get them even past the first 1k dmg. The Pre-Rework Saryn had solid few hundred DMG and could bring Toxin procs with them, witch combined to around 0.5k to1k dmg in most cases(in the rigth loadout).

And for the Utility of the Spell. the Range seems crippled(not sure tho) or doesnt work right, but the spreading of the spores definetly fails before building up.  The "exploding" of the spores is more like F!ck it and start a new Spore because over there is a larger squad. And most of the time you are runnig around a  single enemy to wait for more enemies for spores.

 

Molt:

Cool no inste dead molt anymore and a speed boost.

 

Toxic Lash:

Fine I guess but i dont really get why it needs to apply to other weapons. And the energy per hit were nice to counteract the "requiered" energy Plate/Energize/Zenurik/Trin to play smoothly.

 

Miasma:

Fine before and fine afterwards i think its CC is it most important part.

 

Stats:

It just seems to be somthing to irritade people from the appearend nerf. But making her unneccesaryly tanky just becouse doesnt ssems right.

 

All in all I allready miss the old one and really hope we could discuss a revert to the old Saryn.

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Tested her with my old build (100 duraton, 85 efficency, 200ish range, 175 str)

Had a lot of fun with her. I did not notice as many problem for spore spreading as other people although the range is very crippling. Adding to that I want to cast all 4 abilities frequently now (I melee with saryn usually), energy cost does seem to be an issue. I wonder if range is worth it at all anymore and efficiency + str and a bit duration for miasma might be the way to go.

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I feel like she is in a weird place, clearly geared for higher level stuff just because of the damage she can output. For lower end stuff I feel like using toxic lash and miasma is all she is going to use, with spores being used as her main "high level" stuff.

But, so far, I like it. It feels good, somehow. The only tweak/change I would do is make Miasma a toggle power or give it more of a visual 'pulse' outward that's affected by duration(Like Nova's Molecular Prime). I hear Miasma I think "CLOUD OF DEATH!" Which...this is more of a spray of death currently....So yeah, Miasma as a toggle power would be the only change i'd do at this point in time.

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Tried the new Ceres defense tileset with Saryn Prime.... previously a spore cast on 1 enemy and have him killed, all other enemies in the map will instantly die too. Now the spreading seems much slower.

Also now I cannot spread spores on 2 or more groups of enemies spread out at different area because recasting spores will detonate the old ones. 

New spores work well in Onslaught because of the constant large number of enemies spawning. It doesn't feel that good in normal missions though.

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I'm loving her so far, I actually reduced the amount of ability strength I put on her because of how quickly the damage can ramp up when the mobs are nicely grouped up. Being able to reduce her ability strength allowed me to contribute more to her durability and I'm just loving these changes. There is a bug with spores however as I am sure was mentioned already, where the spore icon is locked to active when there are no spores around. The only way I found was to die and then resurrect in order to fix the bug. 

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Just now, Alanthier said:

Molt is still as useless as ever.  it literally never tricks the enemy into firing at it.  You always maintain aggro.

Forgot to mention this but I agree.

To compliment the new nerfs kit: I would actually find it interesting if Molt not only works for once, but also lures enemies closer. 

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Just now, kyori said:

Tried the new Ceres defense tileset with Saryn Prime.... previously a spore cast on 1 enemy and have him killed, all other enemies in the map will instantly die too. Now the spreading seems much slower.

Also now I cannot spread spores on 2 or more groups of enemies spread out at different area because recasting spores will detonate the old ones. 

New spores work well in Onslaught because of the constant large number of enemies spawning. It doesn't feel that good in normal missions though.

Oh oh, it works fine in onslaught!? Nono that must be a mistake because the big tinfoil hats claim that this rework was done in response to onslaught so what you are saying must be IMpoSsiBLe!!!

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1 hour ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

I have... I guess kind of a question.

when toxic lash is active her uaa... her chest seems to get a tad bit larger. it might just be the skin. it might just be the color change or lighting.

but looks different.

The glow on Saryn's chest is not new. In addition, it is suspended around the model with an inch or two gap, giving the impression of altered size.

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3rd impression: Void survival. Once it goes it seems to do good job against armour, the spreading was low range - nothing like before. Better than in Kuva fortress and the missions before - longer sightlines? Not really a friend of the spread range.

And venom dose augment doesnt work.

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Longtime Saryn player, I'll post my current findings and feedback.

tl;dr version: saryn's ability to spread spores is now very weak and does not currently synergize with team play. Paired with the removal of toxin stacking, Saryn just can't compete with or even reliably assist other damage dealing frames. Can't damage reliably, can't debuff reliably because your spores will NOT SPREAD when your teammates are playing the game. Go Equinox, Mesa or Excal for damage. Saryn is okay for solo semi-tanky high damage.

What I wanted out of this change:

  • Team Synergy with spores
  • consistent debuff mechanic
  • consistent damage mechanic

What we have so far:

  • Spores only spread properly when they are popped OR when the target dies via spore damage OR by the saryn that cast the spores (and pops for toxic lash from that saryn)
    • tl;dr Saryn doesn't even have synergy with other Saryns anymore. If your teammates get kills it will severely hamper your ability to spread spores for debuff or damage stack. Lots of recasting.
  • In addition to synergy issues, Spore spread was nerfed down to 1 spore per pop/kill/toxic lash bullet. This has a very very noticeable effect on spore spread. In team play, your teammates will not remotely be able to help you spread and you will have to recast a lot. In solo, you'll find it very difficult to spread spores to faraway mobs because they simply don't transfer as rapidly as they used to. unreliable debuff
  • In addition to the number of spores spread, the range of the spread even with solo Saryn is still inconsistent. I've done several test runs in Adaro where I kill an enemy and an enemy ~20m away doesn't get infected even though my listed range is ~34m. Sometimes faraway mobs do get infected due to unique effects like the torid cloud. Toxic lash does help the spread consistency but it would be very nice if it simply worked as stated. I expect a mob in range to be infected if I kill a nearby infected enemy whether lash is up or not.

 

Conclusions

I understand why these tweaks were made and that Saryn could be very powerful if spores were both easy to stack and easy to spread. I can understand why the developer needs to monitor these tweaks carefully.

...All I want is to have fun playing with my friends. I really like Saryn and I really want her to add something to team play. I really like the spore counter and I wish I could get it to 100% uptime. I think it'd be really interesting if her armorstrip debuff was reliable. This might encourage alternatives from the 4x Corrosive Projection meta and spawn all sorts of interesting builds and synergies.

Very powerful stuff isn't a weakness in a game, especially when it keeps people playing and makes it more fun. Spore's damage stack is very powerful, but counterbalancing this power with crippling uselessness everywhere else isn't a solution I'm liking a lot at this moment.

Changes to Molt are great, Toxic Lash is interesting but doesn't fix spore spreading, Miasma is great. low duration is good on saryn to keep that cc rolling.

 

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The following fixes for Spores just went live in Hotfix 22.20.2!

  • Fixed a case where Clients may get stuck unable to cast Saryn’s Spores anymore if they cast Spores on a target that dies during the cast.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores HUD indicator disappearing for Clients after Transferring to and from the Operator.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores not doing damage while in Operator but damage continuing to increase over time.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores active indicator remaining when switching to Operator.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores breaking if you go through the Onslaught Conduit while Spores is active.
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I'm not sure what the re-cast to pop your own spores feature is supposed to accomplish. It does trivial damage and seems to just be a noob trap or is bugged and is supposed to do something else? Why would I want to clear all my scaling spores to do a couple ticks of damage and start all over again rather than just let them keep ticking? Pressing that button while spores are up just seems like a bad idea currently. 

I love the new spore counter, I'm glad they added that.

The UI no longer shows the duration on Miasma or Molt, guessing that's a bug. (edit: I see molt does show as a buff/timer at the top, just not over the icon at the bottom like normally). 

I thought maybe you'd use this opportunity to allow spores from multiple Saryns to stack, but that doesn't seem to be the case. You can cast spores on 1 mob if another Saryn also has spores up (testing in Simulcrum with a friend), but you can't spread your spores from that one target onto other targets that already have spores. Not sure if that was just a bug or if you just still intend to not let multiple Saryn's in the same squad use spores effectively. 

edit: Also, I think the corrosive/viral swap isn't really that useful. Viral on spores was useful on everything, corrosive is not. Now the universally useful proc is on the much more expensive 4 and will not keep itself up indefinitely (so on higher level or tanky mobs the viral proc may fall off before the mob dies).

Edited by Borg1611
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Saryn can't pop spores with certain beam weapons like the Convectrix.

Also the Torid, so probably AOE weapons need to be looked at for popping spores.

Edited by Braneman
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First impressions of new Saryn in a kuva survival:

I quite like this new rework. I'll admit that the spores are useless until enemies are around level 65ish, but they truly begin to shine after level 100. Combo-ing the corrosive spores with viral miasma and a torid with radiation was pretty deadly. Enemies were dying left, right and center. However I felt that the spores weren't spreading properly at times, my build has +235% range and sometimes enemies that were about 10m away from popped spores wouldn't contract them. I'm hoping this is a bug. The operator switch removing the spores counter is a bit annoying but this will probably get fixed. Molt was really nice, as it actually lasted longer than half a second against level 130s which provided decent cover for me and my squad. Toxic Lash is really nice now. This ability felt pointless at all levels before - your melee weapon would kill stuff quickly enough at low-mid levels, but then you would just die if you tried to melee at high levels. I went from rarely using it before this rework to basically having it active at all times. Miasma is great, really high damage and the viral procs are useful (I'd still prefer if spores had them though). One thing I particularly liked is that miasma no longer pops spores, meaning I don't have to build up all the spore damage again. 

My issue with the rework:

As a Saryn main, I enjoyed Saryn a lot because spores were viable in many aspects of the game, at all levels. However, they are rather lackluster against lower levels. Now instead we're back to having miasma being the ability that is spammed to kill low level enemies. I understand that some people may like this as it will replace the hole that ember filled before her rework, but I find this playstyle extremely boring and I don't think I'll be playing Saryn outside of sortie 3, ESO or survivals anymore. I'm not sure what to think about spores being cast-able once. As mentioned above, there is a weird issue preventing spores from spreading properly. I'm hoping that spreading spores without this bug is simple, else they should make it so you can re-cast it at least 3 times without them all popping. As for the spore's corrosive procs...I'm not a fan. Corrosive spores are just not useful especially when you have 4 CP's or are against corpus. I completely understood Pablo's logic with swapping miasma and spores' damage types (Spore has 3 procs per second on an enemy, miasma has 1 = more corrosive procs per second = faster armor reduction), but I feel that viral had much more utility against all factions and trying to spread viral with miasma is extremely energy-consuming and you have to use it quite a lot. I have a couple of ideas to make this better (Quite simple ideas, but hear me out) :

1. Revert spores back to viral, make miasma corrosive but have it reduce armor every second, like a DoT version of Oberon's Reckoning (I prefer this).

or

2. Make an augment for miasma similar to Nyx's augment for her Chaos, but better. Essentially, using miasma places a large area. Any enemy that enters gets a viral proc and some damage.

In conclusion, I like this rework as I play Saryn a lot when it comes to high level content, and she is brilliant at it if played well. However, I think spores should return to being viral and miasma to corrosive. I also hope that the spore spreading issue gets fixed and if it's still difficult to spread them even with +280% range, then the ability to recast it should return or limit it to 3 casts rather than 1 as it allows spores to reliably cover a large area, and I feel that DE doesn't want to make the recasting unlimited cause it'd probably be quite broken. I'm excited to play test this a bit more in ESO and in endurance runs against the other factions. 

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It seems like my spores have a bad habbit of getting stuck in a corner, forcing me to either go run down that one mob that's hiding at the edge of the tile (saw this in Onslaugt) or burst and recast.  

Which leads to the second observation, burst and recast is cluncky.  Again, in Onslaught, so the chaos might have confused me; but the burst seemed to take more than one press some times, and then there seemed to be a delay before I could recast.  This part feels like a problem. 

Is it possible to get back the multiple instance from the last version somehow?  Like reduce or reset the damage counter when you cast to infect a target again, and have the burst triggered by button hold?  

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After 3 more hours of testing i can say i DON'T like the change to spores, i miss the way they worked before and i miss that toxin procs can't be spread and carried, no matter if it was only the highest DOT being carried over but spores were fine as they were..they were 100% spreading more reliably even at 160 range ( although i always ran higher ranges but i did play several endurances at 160 just for the sake of it ) due to the possibility to re-cast them on another group of enemies, and honesty i don't care if they have infinite duration and scales up in damage they were much more enjoyable before ( for me )

Molt & toxic lash changes are welcome, you could have just added the option that we can't cast spores on Molt if it was your main concern about turret Saryn.

About miasma all it needed was a hallowed reckoning treatment, have it strip a % or armor, longer duration and dmg+% of enemies max healt dmg to make it scale, also the fact it doesn't restun a second time on the same enemies is totally bollocks..

I'll give it the benefits of the doubt and go for more hours but i have played enough long endurances and not necessarily using the noob meta maiming slide with toxic lash, to already know i liked how spores worked BEFORE,and even if i said that spores now feel more brutal / powerful if you manage to keep them up and running, i still prefer the old ones

Edited by arm4geddon-117
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So my thoughts on Saryn's rework:

1. her new spore mechanics make you hate your teammates because they kill your spored mob and bye-bye damage boost. Maybe if you want to Solo stuff alone, that's great but....

2. Toxic lash isn't spreading spores, at least not consistently.

3. I never really used miasma because it wasn't nearly as effective as gas amprex and spores, and I am a melee player.

Overall: This seems like a HARD NERF to me, and one that makes me hate playing with others.

QUESTION: Why would you make changes that DISCOURAGE team gameplay? It's a team PVE Horde shooter.... WTF?

DE - stop calling stuff a re-work when it's a NERF. Alternatively, if you disagree w/ this being a nerf, then please explain.

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

The following fixes for Spores just went live in Hotfix 22.20.2!

  • Fixed a case where Clients may get stuck unable to cast Saryn’s Spores anymore if they cast Spores on a target that dies during the cast.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores HUD indicator disappearing for Clients after Transferring to and from the Operator.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores not doing damage while in Operator but damage continuing to increase over time.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores active indicator remaining when switching to Operator.
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spores breaking if you go through the Onslaught Conduit while Spores is active.

God Bless you guys work fast

Edited by Cibyllae
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Of course need to test her more since her kit has changed but in general Saryn seems nice after the rework.

 

One suggestion that would be very useful if possible to make her Spore recastable on tap and explode on hold.

 

P.S. Her new sounds are a bit hard to get used to for now 😄

Thanks for update!

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5 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

Spores spread when the enemy dies of the spore? There you have it then. You won't see them spreading nicely in team play then.

 

Spores spread when either:

An enemy is killed by Spores or
An infected enemy is hit with a weapon affected by Toxic Lash

"

Spores 
Inflicts target with a pox of Corrosive spores. Spread spores to nearby enemies by destroying them or killing their host (*Specifically by the spores themselves or by the hand of the Saryn who owns those Spores).

"

I see what you mean though.

Edited by Rhokkes
wrong info
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3 minutes ago, Rhokkes said:

Spores spread when either:

An enemy is killed by Spores or
An infected enemy is hit with a weapon affected by Toxic Lash

"

Spores 
Inflicts target with a pox of Corrosive spores. Spread spores to nearby enemies by destroying them or killing their host (*Specifically by the spores themselves or by the hand of the Saryn who owns those Spores).

"

I see what you mean though.

Yes, to clarify:

When your teammates kill the spored enemy it won't spread. And it's quite the gamble to rely on them popping spores with their weapons.

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