Daily Tribute Dev Workshop!

[Nosphe57]

Il y a 2 heures, [DE]Taylor a dit :

Nan! Comme vous pouvez le constater dans l'édition (et dans mon commentaire ci-dessus), nous changeons de piste pour respecter les jours jalons originaux. Désolé pour la panique!

2. Armes et équipement. Jours 100, 300, 500, etc. 

OOOUUUUUUFFFFFFFFF 

[TheDarkZonePilot]

1 hour ago, Xavier said:

During the previous Prime Vault in the winter, DE announced plans to introduce a Prime Accessories Pack in some form. The immediate backlash was that the players that had already bought into the Prime Access to get those accessories - when they didn't necessarily need any of the prime frames or weapons that came with them - were being punished for supporting the developers.

DE responded by saying that the Prime Accessory Packs wouldn't be available for that Prime Vault rotation, and that the players that bought those packs - either the original prime access or the Prime Vault packs that were frames, weapons, and accessories all bundled together - had access to those items considerably before anyone that would be getting those cosmetics from future Vault Accessory Packs.

The accessory pack was a feature that had been requested every time the prime vault made an appearance, and when DE listened and announced they were intending to introduce them with the new Prime Vault this summer, there was an immediate backlash from players that thought that others were getting an "easier route" to the content they paid for.

The earlier access to the weapons and prime mods in the current system is a reward for veterans that have been playing this game since the Daily Tribute system was introduced. I am one of those players; I am approaching 950 daily logins. I got to experience the Zenith and the Zenistar on launch before some content creators had time to create videos for them. All of the other systems in Warframe - syndicates, resources, clan research, event weapons, endgame content - are iterative, and tend in the direction of favoring agency on the part of the player and gratifying rewards for participating in the content that DE provides. Why, then, would we expect the Daily Tribute system - which is itself a second iteration upon the daily login rewards - to remain in stasis when the improvements suggested in this workshop improve player agency and a sense of gratification?

In addition, if logging in everyday isn't hard - and I would argue that is the case - then why should we expect *reverence* from DE and the community for doing so? We are not "messiahs" because we have been playing the game longer than other players. We are veterans. We had access to all of the content in the game before these players did, and we have had the privilege - and the detriment - of experiencing these systems as they iterate. That's what we signed up for.

In this workshop, they have delineated a system where we would be getting rewards that were multiple times better than new players for the non-milestone rewards. DE clearly has laid forth a framework where players that have been around a while experience residuals for logging in everyday and supporting Warframe and its community. Don't you think it's more productive to ask for those numbers to be tweaked in our favor than it is to belittle DE for daring to iterate to make the new player experience better?

We don't deserve to be placed on pedestals for being around longer than other players, and it is absurd to me to suggest just because my experience to get access to some content was hard that someone else should have to struggle just as much. Imagine if DE adopted that mindset with the Plains of Eidolon! Everyone that grinded through bounties as they were released would be entitled to ensure that bounties never improved because "they had to grind it the hard way, so everyone else should too". As someone that has done many bounties - from launch until today - I'm glad they're in the state they are now instead of where they were last October.

Your position is antagonistic not only to new players but to the community as a whole because you seem to care more about your status as a player above others than whether or not Warframe's systems improve over time. I invite you to reconsider.

THIS is the best post ive ever read on this forum. AMEN 

[Ketoth]

This system doesn't solve the issue where players will still have to play almost 3 years to caught up the rewards, and by them will still be behind 3 years behind someone else.

I proposed something last year but didn't got that much attention here , but people said another system was being made and so got buried

Basically my proposed system would allow players get extra login bonus based on their MR ( higher MR higher bonus logins) until you meet a certain number behind the maximum possible, after that you just get 1 daily tribute.

The fully explanation of my caught system can be found in that thread with examples.

[GuardianRainwalker]

Ah the daily login/daily quest system, an important yet troublesome part of f2p and MMO game design that drives player-base numbers by keeping players that would normally go inactive at least logging in and doing something rather than wandering off and finding another game.

On the one hand, it's an important part of progression for new players. Getting even one or two extra rare resources from the daily tribute is extremely useful, two Tellurium is enough to build Titania before unlocking Uranus, free blueprints can save a chunk of credits before one has access to The Index, even a forma BP or two before they're easily available is kinda a big deal especially on a weapon with a syndicate effect.

Then you have those in the middle. In what I'd call the mid-game, once you've got the starchart unlocked and your loadout is good enough to do almost any normal content maybe once in a while a rare resource roll will let you skip a farming run, maybe, and extra forma are always nice. In the late-game which I personally consider to be MR 16 as at this point all weapons/frames/rivens are available (not end-game mind you, late-game. Big difference), what resources does a player want? Endo for leveling Prime Mods and multiple copies of Corrupted Mods, Kuva for rolling rivens, syndicate rep for trading syndicate stuff and buying relic packs, focus and lenses, stuff from PoE, and arcanes if one can be bothered to farm eidolons. And that's basically it, everything else is either easily available or is an extremely low drop rate farm like Condition Overload.

For these mid/late (not end) game players, the generic daily rewards are kinda useless, only the 50/100/200 milestones are interesting. These are the players that are most likely to both not care about, and get screwed by the daily tributes. On the one hand they might want say for example Sigma&Octantis, but are more than a year away from getting it. These are the players that need something to change to keep them actually engaged with the daily system.

And then you have the Veteran and End-game players. These players already have their 900 or more rewards, and there is nothing, literally, nothing, that you can put on the daily tributes that can impact their gameplay. They already have stocks of 100 forma already built, collected every frame and put a rector in it, mastered every weapon and kept/catad/formad their favorites. What they want is their exclusives, syandanas, glyphs, palates, armors. And more importantly they want their exclusives to stay exclusive to those that have dedicated themselves to the game.

And there's the rub. You need the vets to be satisfied with the system and its exclusives because they buy prime accesses, plat, and other accessories. You need newer players to be able to catch up in progression so they don't simply abandon the game when they see all this cool stuff gated behind literal years of time. And you need to solve the problem of the player with the time to hit late-game without all that many login days. This...is basically a mutually exclusive design problem, not even really a warframe problem, just a flaw inherent in the concept of daily quests and daily logins in general.

Far be it for me to point out the inherent flaws in a system without offering some potential solution for discussion/consideration.

The way I see it, there are two types of milestone reward #50 rewards are cosmetics with some sort of thing added on to them. #00 rewards are mechanical rewards, that is to say weapons and prime mods. Of course that pattern has been broken with the 800+ tributes, but you'll see my reasoning for pointing it out, and it might be worth shuffling a few rewards plus of minus 50 days to restore this pattern.

What one could do is have a daily tribute, and a daily goal. These daily goals wouldn't be available immediately and should be gated behind something that shows you're ready to push the progression. I'd go with all Junctions unlocked, TWW, one eidolon down, unveil three rivens. Once you have this system unlocked it'd work much like the extra goals in missions, this would be an extra goal that you're presented when you login to your orbiter for the first time (and can be checked in the menu, naturally).

These daily goals should be...easy but not simple...something like complete one of each mission type at level 30+ solo, or 100 headshots with a thrown melee weapon, something that takes longer than a riven quest and is completable across multiple missions and mission types. When you complete the goal, you get a roll on the 'everyday' rewards, this however wouldn't progress your login days counter but act as its own counter for another purpose.

That purpose? Early unlocks for _*some*_ types of rewards. When the total of your login days, and your daily goals complete equals the number of days to unlock a weapon, or prime mod, and _*only*_ a weapon or prime mod, then you'd get that unlock early. This alleviates some of the problems with progression, while leaving the exclusives for the dedicated players intact.

Then the only remaining issue is the hardest of grinders...the ones that make MR 20+ in two to three months...that's a bit trickier. Some way to get another daily goal once it's complete would work, as that would only affect the progression items, and not the exclusives. It would have to be something that is obtainable but in low enough quantities that getting more than say five in a day is not exactly feasible without a good bit of luck....This might be a solid extra use for Synthetic Eidolon Shards.

Wow..that's a doozy of a post...I should tl;dr this...but nope, the complexity is too high for a tl;dr.

[GA-Bulletproof]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb rune_me:

I would say awesome, good for student X, like any sane person would. Since I would have known personally how hard and difficult it was to study, I would of course be happy for anyone who didn't have to go through that nonsense. And since students X's grade, whether he failed or got an A, in no way, shape or form would affect me or my grade, there's no reason at all why I shouldn't be happy for him. Unless of course I was a petty miserable human being.

This sounds like generation entitlement all over again.

"No i don't want to work for that but i deserve to have it anyways"

How can someone appreciate the grade he was given without working for it. Same goes for the login rewards.

The best example you basically made yourself. If you get an A in your test and the guy that walks in gets the same thing, what does that say about your A? No Skill or effort recquired!

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

24 minutes ago, Andrew7811 said:

This does not solve the issue I, a MR 25 player, with almost 900 login day reward, have when it comes to inviting new players to the game. I do not like to have to tell them that you will need to play for two to three straight years just to get ALL of the login gear.

Why even bring it up? A new player has so much other stuff to do and figure out if they even stick with the game long to reach their first milestone. It's not they'll be able to max a primed mod any time soon and there are oodles of more readily available fun weapons to play with.

I would think it would be far more disheartening to hear that the cool frame or weapon they want is currently vaulted, or that it takes 3.5 days to build a new frame after you've farmed it's bps and collected the resources, etc. The existence of login rewards shouldn't even be a blip on their radar.

I've read some compelling arguments for further changes, but this?!?

[krabbie229]

if scaling rewards will be a thing, maybe you should add the free plat again. But use reverse scaling. New players need the plat more. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteveCutler]

This is very disappointing. I was under the impression that this was going to be reworked to fix the issue of it taking literally years to catch up and obtain all the equipment. These proposed changes will not fix this issue. All it will change is that you'll be able to pick the order you get things in, but you'll still have to wait 200 days for the chance to make that choice, and you'll still have to log in every day for literally years in order to get everything. Please rethink this.

[ClonedPickle]

So let's say you can pick whatever you want from the pool every 50 days. ~~~oh no~~~ now players can have all the weapons in 200 days!! My prestige!!!! DE how could you!!!

That's not actually a problem. That's a good thing, and the 700 day wait to be able to tick off the final bits of MR available is really annoying. Honestly it was less annoying back when the weapons were hidden in my profile but now the Zenith and S&O are greyed out and taunting me.

Also, new players aren't going to do that. Potatoes and boosters are incredibly valuable to newer players, and I wouldn't be surprised if new players would honestly just prefer to take those rewards at 50 and 100, and maybe even 150! I dunno. But let's say a new player wants only the exclusive stuff: the four weapons, the three useful primed mods. That's still 350 days of logins to get it all. That's still a year of logging in. That's long enough.

There's a lot of posts in this thread from angry vets moaning about how it's not fair that new players won't have to slog like they did, and that's really hurtful and backwards thinking and doesn't help the game get better. I suspect it's not just vitriol from those vets that makes DE reluctant to have it be a 50-day-whatever-you-want system, but also some internal reasoning. I don't know what that reasoning is (and I hope it's not just "mhm yes players should have to log in every day for two years to get all the weapons in the game yes good"), but yikes. This rework as it's proposed really doesn't do all that much. At the very least just put the weapons and the mods in the same 100-day pool, but a 50-day-whatever-you-want would be so much better. Exclude the cosmetics, sure. Throw the vets a bone. If it's useful, let new people have it.

 

Also, sending out my thoughts & prayers to any newbies that pick Primed Sure Footed as their first primed mod, you poor things.

[(PSN)DIZZYRATCHET]

I say of they are really going to switch it to the new log in system then they do this
Our current log ins stay as is until our next milestone while having the new system. Kinda like 2 dailies until the original milestone is reached. After that new log in system will take control. Thats only if they decide to keep it this way

[Hammer_of_Sol]

Casualising the login rewards but will there ever be something that locked behind a time wall that shows how long you played?

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

How can someone appreciate the grade he was given without working for it. Same goes for the login rewards.

There is however no "working for it" with the login rewards. No effort is required to type in your password. Thinking that that is work, and that by logging into an account you deserve a special price (because yay, you remembered your password) IS the very definition of "generation entitlement". Oh look, I was there, now give me a trophy.

5 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

The best example you basically made yourself. If you get an A in your test and the guy that walks in gets the same thing, what does that say about your A? No Skill or effort recquired!

Someone else's grade would have no impact or effect on mine, at all. If I put skill and effort into my work, then I would proud of that. I could care less about the grade.

[(XBOX)SquirtDatBleach]

With the discussion around the new tribute system people have either enjoyed it or have been up in arms. Those people who are angery are generally those who are close to let’s day 300 days and now they’ll have to wait until 400 to get the weapon they want. Well I have a solution for that 

I call it the legacy system:

heres how it works

the current pile of daily weapons will be renamed to “legacy” versions (ex. Legacy Zenith, Legacy Azima. Etc.) These legacy weapons can be traded, not by player to player but to a faction (the one I have in mind is cephalon suda). These legacy items are one time trade with suda to obtain “normal” versions of the daily weapons. This will allow lots of players getting screwed over by the new system to trade in a legacy weapon and get the one they want. Along with this, I propose the legacy weapons get a slight visual tweak (give them gold trimmings or something along those lines). A huge complaint of the new system is the lack of prestige for the veterans. If you are a veteran you can strut the same weapon as everybody else (stat wise) but you have a cooler version of it. 

This system solves many things:

people getting screwed over by the new days 

veterans who want the prestige of the weapon 

and it just looks cooler

 

i would love to see this implemented as I really want to get my hands on some of the daily tribute weapons but understand and respect the anger of the veterans. Thanks!

[BiancaRoughfin]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

On the new system it now scales based on the amount of days you have logged on. They increase by 25% for every 50 days. So for the example of Endo, the starting value will be 50 Endo, someone at 400 days, will get 3x the rewards as someone just starting, 150 Endo. For the veterans on day 900, it would be 275 Endo. This is just free Endo for logging in that now scales better - we know that’s not headline news, but it is better.

 

MR	Old Endo Average		Days	New Endo Average
1	50		1	50
5	57.5		200	100
10	65		400	150
15	72.5		600	200
20	80		800	250
25	80		1000	300

Wile grateful that the rewards now increase with time, i do feel they are still not very significant, considering a player of any Rank can get over 400 Endo as a single mission reward in 5 minutes or Less (Defense/Excavation).

I think these rewards should also scale with the player`s MR Rank, not only to give newer players more reasons to invest in gaining Mastery Rank but also to give players that have dedicated them self to the game for longer, something that is more proportional to a Sorties reward (Which any player can still earn far more than in a day with a few hours playing).

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

Please make resource "scaling" be not only about the number of the resource that you get but also the type of resource that you get.  What I mean by that is a MR 4 player is probably happy to get 1 or 2 orokin cells from login.  At MR25 and sitting on 600 orokin cells already the game could give me 1 or 50 more and I just wouldn't care either way. 

Now give me a cetus wisp or a nyth or a nitain and that I would care about even if it was just 1 or 2. 

Most importantly as the game evolves update the system to give the new stuff.  It should be obvious that the three things I listed off as stuff I would want are both harder to get and newer to the game.  Fortuna is going to dump who knows how much new stuff on us that we going to start at zero with.  Getting that stuff from login would be a welcome bonus.

[BabyPhon]

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

EDIT - 2:31 PM EST

After reading your feedback, we are switching the tracks for Primed Mods and Weapons/Equipment to respect current milestones. The main post has been edited to reflect this change, here's the list of updated tracks for posterity:

1. Sigils and Resources. Days 50, 150, 250, etc.

2. Weapons and Equipment. Days 100, 300, 500, etc. 

3. Primed Mods. Days 200, 400, 600, etc.

So i need to wait another 130 days for primed sure footed which was suppose on day 900 now become 1000? i should be get it in 1 month according to current system tho, It's 4 months more, even tho many people think it useless mods, but i want it and quite anticipating it and you increase it to 4 more months that's not fair, how about applying this change after people get past their current milestone?

Or

How about making old+new login existing together, so for example on day 900, we can choose 1 from either primed sure footed (old login) or weapons/equipments (new login)?

[Chronozilla]

I'm assuming the syandana and armor are fixed at 800 and 1000 days and will be excluded from the choice-every-milestone system? Since they're purely cosmetic and would satiate the vets with their exclusive thingies.

[GA-Bulletproof]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb rune_me:

There is however no "working for it" with the login rewards. No effort is required to type in your password. Thinking that that is work, and that by logging into an account you deserve a special price (because yay, you remembered your password) IS the very definition of "generation entitlement". Oh look, I was there, now give me a trophy.

It's about persistence. Nothing in this game you really have to work for. You just need to be persistent enough to farm the same boss 15 times to get that last BP or run 20 relics to get the rare. In Warframe being persistent is bascially the work you put in. See it as you will but the argument just because something seems overwhelmingly easy for you it can't be worth a reward doesn't make too much sense when the narrative that drives the login rewards is the same for the entire game.

[-InV-igo95862]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GamerGodLink said:

Learn to read. Timing for each category isn't changing.

100, 300, 500... Each step is 200

500 + 200 = 700

700 + 200 = 900

900 + 200 = 1100

Weapons and armor is now at 900 and 1100. The new armor was at 1000

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

It's about persistence. Nothing in this game you really have to work for. You just need to be persistent enough to farm the same boss 15 times to get that last BP or run 20 relics to get the rare. In Warframe being persistent is bascially the work you put in. See it as you will but the argument just because something seems overwhelmingly easy for you it can't be worth a reward doesn't make too much sense when the narrative that drives the login rewards is the same for the entire game.

Which is why I will never support a login system in any form. Rewards should be given for things you do in the game, not just for logging in. Like I said, a login system is just a "participation trophy". You don't even need to be persistent. I could just login and then immediately log out again. I could be MR 1 and have done nothing in the game but still have 600 days of logging in. Which is also why I don't think X number of days should be more rewarding than 1 day, or 10 days. 

[Ulvra]

Sounds lovely, the only concern I have in regards to the new system is that you (DE) make it clearly visible if a player already has a certain item or make it impossible to pick a dublicate of things like sigils, weapons or primed mods, so you don't end up making a boo boo and accidentally picking a double.

[Voltage]

I think the current plan is fine as it gives players choice. Digital Extremes promised player choice, not faster login rewards. I believe the only additional changes that should be made are more rewards for players approaching 1000 days. Hopefully this is addressed when they said "evergreen rewards".

[LSG501]

Scaling 'day to day' based off of our MR.. could you maybe remove some of the rubbish rewards like gallium that a higher MR isn't going to need and give us things we actually need like kuva.  I have ZERO need for most of the current reward resources, weapon/frame blueprints etc outside endo and forma that drops from logins.  Also to be perfectly honest, (I'm at over 800 days and MR25) 250 endo is kind of nothing when you consider we're the players going after maxing mod levels mods that cost up to 40,000 endo and 2mil credits

 

Things like rivens mods, imo, shouldn't be in the early stages either, considering that most rivens have a higher MR requirement they're kind of a pointless reward for the lower days, not to mention it could completely skew a new players experience. 

 

Adding forma as a reward is nice idea but maybe they could have an increased drop rate on the normal daily rewards depending on your MR, they're already in the drop table but really rare in my experience, instead of being a '50 day reward'.  If I need to wait '50 days' to pick one I'll have basically built 50 in that time by doing them daily in the foundry.

Also why no large quantity of Kuva, I'm not on about 6k like for sortie, I'm on about a really good lump of kuva like 30k or even a bit higher. 

 

Can we at least keep some sort milestones as milestones to show we've put the time into getting them.....even if it's just things like the syandana and armor.  Before people say it I'm at around 820ish days so I'm still 180 days from the armor using the current system.  I'm personally fine waiting that time, even though there's a completely pointless booster, reactor (I'm swimming in them at mr25) and sigil at 950 days and a primed mod I'm never likely to use at 900 days. 

 

Also a little side note based on what's written here, the irony in this rework is that the milestone changes don't actually give any options to those in the 800+ day range other than giving us a choice of bundle on the 850 and 950 day intervals, at 900 we'll pick the only primed mod left for us to pick and at 1000 days we'll pick the armor, they're the only options we have...  So could you maybe expand a little on what you intend to do after 800 days where things aren't quite as 'clear cut' as when it comes to the order of items.  I'm assuming they'll be sticking to the existing days too as if we go by the changes mentioned it could actually take longer to get some items.

 

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:



 

Under some amount of debate is also Milestone rewards such as Primed Mods and Weapons, being tradable. At this time, we are removing this from the plan.

Good, they should not be tradable, it's bad enough things are being changed so people can get things that some of us have spent 700 days working to get in far less time but to allow them to be traded is just plain wrong and to put it bluntly (imo) insulting to those of us that have spent the time getting them prior to this intended change.  IMO you should also only be able to get the items once too.

 

Also as others have said, hopefully our current time investment isn't going to be reset. 

[llamabrown]

1 hour ago, Duduminador said:

A Reminder:

On every game out there. Login Rewards are invitations, not prizes on their own. It's meant to encourage players to come back often for the occasional rewards and check the game, see what's going on. Maybe you caught that alternate helmet for one of your favorite frames on the alert? Maybe there is a Catalyst invasion up, maybe you are really not into playng that particular momment, but you still checked in.

Let me point this out: it HAS to be encouraging, instead of shoving an almost 2 year long run of logins, that's NOT encouraging, it's in fact discouraging.

It's NOT about your prestige, it's not about keeping people from getting the Sigma & Octantis that you just got. The prestige excuse does in fact the opposite purpose of what login rewards exist for.

Agreed. Well said.

Basic Skinner behavior modification at play with log in rewards. But there is a sweet spot for how long you leave people to wait for that positive reinforcement. 2 years is too long. I get some people have done all of them. But DE what percentage of the population do they represent? 5%? And is that really the best way of getting folks to log in?

[Xavier]

So, with the original iteration of this Dev Workshop, people who were approaching the 300-day milestone were upset that their Zenistar access was being pushed to 400 days. Now that the Dev Workshop has been edited, there are people upset that the new armor set seems to have been pushed from 1000 days to 1100 days.

In addition, there are people that have suggested that they would prefer all milestone content be available at every *50 day milestone.

I suggest a compromise: All *50 day milestones remain as they were in the original version of this Dev Workshop. The *00 day milestones would then allow players to select from *all* daily tribute primed mods, weapons and cosmetics (syandanas, armor sets, etc.). This ensures that everyone is still acquiring items at relatively the same rate - which I think is the primary concern with regards to letting every *50 day milestone allow every item, that everyone would opt for the cosmetics and boosters last.

And it gives players more agency to decide whether they would like to prioritize their mod collections, mastery, or cosmetics. I think this resolves a few of the issues currently being faced with the 200 day rotations at the same time as preserving most of the original intent of this Dev Workshop.

Thanks again for all the hard work!