"But lots of frames have bad first abilities."

[yles9056]

42 minutes ago, Loviam said:

Mesa's one is not bad. It's a flat damage buff. It's actually good. You clearly aren't using her right if you think it's bad  

No, it's bad. Ballistic Battery is clunky to use and it only adds damage to 1 projectile before you need to recharge it again. It doesn't even work with multishot.

99% of the time it's easier to just use Peacemaker. And 1% of the time you suddenly remember Ballistic Battery exists but still don't use it because you are having so much fun using Peacemaker.

Edited October 4, 2018 by yles9056

[Mach25]

42 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Stopped reading right here. 

Spores right now is arguably THE most most powerful 1 out there, to the point where it actually rivals some Ults in terms of being able to kill large numbers of mooks in a short time span. For a 1, it's stupidly broken and overpowered. No starting ability should be able to wipe a room.

 

Don't worry, Saryn baby, he's just being grumpy - don't take his feelings to heart. I'll still love you no matter how powerful your spores are, nerfed or not. 🧡
That aside, I hear ya and truly, those spores are something else. Any recommended tweaks to her first ability?

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

Stopped reading right here. 

Spores right now is arguably THE most most powerful 1 out there, to the point where it actually rivals some Ults in terms of being able to kill large numbers of mooks in a short time span. For a 1, it's stupidly broken and overpowered. No starting ability should be able to wipe a room.

 

Still take more effort to make Spores to wipe a whole room than Octavia's Mallet. That one only requires LOS instead of Interaction.

[SenorClipClop]

5 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Can we finally bury this stupid argument? ... We've reached a point in warframe where we have enough frames with good 1st that this excuse just doesn't cut it anymore and it should not be looked at as unreasonable to demand that every ability on every frame be worth using to some degree.

Well, I would say it's difficult to bury this argument for two reasons: the first is that any mention of this topic immediately becomes a discussion (so nicely done OP); the second is that it's often very difficult to determine what constitutes a weak ability, both in relation to the frame it's on and in relation to other first abilities.

First off, comparing a #1 on one frame to one on another isn't really fair. Some #1 abilities are just going to be stronger than other 1s. Atlas can one-shot bosses with his 1, Banshee gets a knockdown and maybe 50 damage on beefy enemies. The former is hugely stronger than the later in terms of damage, but Atlas is more 1-centric while Banshee rests on 2 and 3.

So I guess this raises a further question: what does "strong" mean? A first ability doesn't need to kill to be good (ie Tailwind), it just needs to fit with the frame's gameplay and how it rolls. Atlas is a melee fighter and his high-damage punches are strong, but I would argue that Sonic Boom is strong too since it gives Banshee a quick and much-needed safety button.

Generally speaking, a #1 should be a cheap ability a frame uses regularly. The only time I then see #1s as underpowered is if it's not worth the energy to cast. Right now I the underpowered 1s I see are these:

Wukong's Iron Jab. Low range, single-target but doesn't need a target to cast, easy to waste Energy on it. Improve by increasing range and making it need a target to cast.

Chroma's Spectral Scream. Slow, lowish range, not much damage and a low status chance. Improve by ramping up the speed and decreasing the tick time.

Aaaand that's it! Some other abilities could use a biiiit of extra love but aren't in dire need. Ripline could use a function to make a more visceral entrance onto enemies, for example.

 

[Ada_Wong_SG]

As a Trinity Main the Well of Life does not make much tactical sense since amidst the chaos 
it is near impossible for teammates to pick the WoL target to be of any effect.

Make WoL pulse out HP like EV does with energy, if 
the teammates is fully healed the WoL pulse can temporary add overheal of 500hp max to teammates.

[MickThejaguar]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

Generally speaking, a #1 should be a cheap ability a frame uses regularly. The only time I then see #1s as underpowered is if it's not worth the energy to cast.

There are several 1st abilities that aren't worth the energy. Excalibur's Slash Dash, Mesa's Ballistic Battery, Nekros' Soul Punch. It's not enough to just be cheap and spammable, it needs to provide something useful that you can't supplement in larger amounts with another ability. Having an ability that amounts to just being cheaper, weaker version of another ability I also have makes the ability feel like a waste. 

[Magneu]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

Nekros' is only useful with an Augment. Otherwise, it deals less damage than Wukong's 1, and that might as well be someone poking someone with a marshmallow.

Excalibur's is awful for multiple reasons. It's unpredictable, it can't proc Crit or Status, it's hardly buffed at all by his other abilities, etc.

For Excalibur, you seem to be missing;

1. Affected by rivens if EB isn't out.

2. Affected by combo counter AND can massively increase combo counter if using the augment.

3. Deals knockdown AND makes Excalibur immune to damage while in the animation.

4. If EB is out, not only do you use the base damage of EB before combo counter multipliers, but it also gains (a) the crit and status chances of your EB and (b) the ability to shoot sword waves with EACH enemy hit.

5. It also benefits from stealth/blind multipliers.

6. It's super easy to use. Enemy in base 12m in a roughly 45 degree cone in front of you, it'll hit it, no matter how many are in the cone.

With a 2x multiplier I've seen five digits worth of damage WITHOUT EB out. With EB out, it can deal with sortie levels heavies. Blinded enemies with EB out and it can OHKO sortie three enemies while also providing CC via knockdown/status procs via the waves it throws out each time it hits an enemy.

Basically, the exact opposite of everything that you've claimed.

[VanosPrime]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Stopped reading right here. 

Spores right now is arguably THE most most powerful 1 out there, to the point where it actually rivals some Ults in terms of being able to kill large numbers of mooks in a short time span. For a 1, it's stupidly broken and overpowered. No starting ability should be able to wipe a room.

 

I think they should remove the damage from it and have it just be an aoe armor stripper. That alone is powerful enough. You can have the counter like it does now but it interacts with miasma's damage and once Miasma is used it either resets the counter or uses a percentage of it.

[Sziklamester]

All abilities should be worth the energy what you spent on them.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

7 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

As funny as I find this, no. Volt's 1st is actually fine. It's meant to be small area CC, not a destructive barrage of Sith lightning.

UNLIMITED POWEERRRRRRRR

[MirageKnight]

19 hours ago, VPrime96 said:

Still take more effort to make Spores to wipe a whole room than Octavia's Mallet. That one only requires LOS instead of Interaction.

So wait...having to actually target an enemy...within range...somehow justifies how obscenely OP Spores is? How it can utterly trivialize gameplay on small maps and make life boring for other players?

Really?

The logic and rational you people use at times.

By that argument, Oberon's Smite should have the same room-clearing capability as Spores, because - like Spores - Smite requires you to target an enemy. Yeah, let's make Smite scale and spread similar to how Spores does. I'm sure everyone would love that /s

 

 

[CoolDudeMcCool]

49 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

So wait...having to actually target an enemy...within range...somehow justifies how obscenely OP Spores is? How it can utterly trivialize gameplay on small maps and make life boring for other players?

Really?

The logic and rational you people use at times.

By that argument, Oberon's Smite should have the same room-clearing capability as Spores, because - like Spores - Smite requires you to target an enemy. Yeah, let's make Smite scale and spread similar to how Spores does. I'm sure everyone would love that /s

 

 

I'd love that. It'd be way too OP, but I'd love it.

[Azamagon]

23 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

You have no idea how much I want to replace Chroma's fire breath with a wind up Opticor Blast...

 

 

"Pocket Godzilla" achieved if implemented...

You know, I've been pondering a rethink of Spectral Scream too, but something that can work while flying too (to keep that dragon feel).

This was my idea:

Imagine an elemental orb, that deals damage to any enemy that comes near it as it passes by them, in a wide area (like an Arca Plasmor shot, basicly). However, as the orb travels along, it also drops elemental residue behind it, which falls downward to the ground, hurting anyone it falls over. Once that residue lands on the ground, it stays there for a duration, dealing damage to anyone passing through it:

* Powerful blast attack "feel"? Check!
* Elemental rain / carpet? Check!
* Useable effectively both from the air and on the ground? Check!

 

[icyspark123]

came to say hi and I will do nothing with this conversation so uhmmmm NOTICE ME SENPAIIIIIII

[Duality52]

On 2018-10-03 at 4:47 PM, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

 

Rhino's Charge - a little more damage, though i wouldn't mind it being changed to something that has more weight to it, where you charge it up and then shoulder-barge into an enemy at max sprint speed, dealing massive impact damage, and even more damage if Iron Skin is up. would love the effect of turning enemies into red mist, but that's probably not for everyone.

Saryn's Spores - fine as it is

 

Trinity's Well of Life - increased healing and range.

 

Missing a few frames in between those aforementioned frames, which I assume it's accidental.

Nova (Null Star) : I don't usually play Nova, but her Null Star be ordered into an offensive or defensive stance (think of a bee hive). Offense, the orbs absorb damage similar to Antimatter Drop to inflict more damage. Defense, protects Nova instead while an Orb will dissipate if Nova takes a certain amount of damage.

Revenant (Enthrall) : Friendly fire renders it useless if you can't get the animation out fast enough. Make it similar to Nyx's Mind Control or give the Thralls a "grace period" when they get converted for few seconds then they are vulnerable.

Titania (Spellbind) : Unusually sluggish. Speed up the animation. The mini disarming and status immunity is fine, but the excessive ragdolling makes it annoying. Tone down the ragdolling as they're floating or lock them in place (Khora's Strangledome in a way).

Edited October 5, 2018 by Duality52
Added Nova

[TioMegaManX]

Just the 1st? try having only one consistent ability or one ability that makes your frame reliable, so many come to mind.

[SPplayer76]

You are absolutely right, people that make these half baked non arguments can't be reasoned with either, because anything you say will be met with a resounding, "meh" as they continue to pretend like they've somehow have this insurmountable point. It happens with a lot of stuff in this game, something is problematic to grind for, here comes the people who somehow persevered or got lucky to say, "It's really not that bad." Something has prohibitively high research costs, here come the old players who already have a mountain of the resource to claim that it's not an issue. Some enemy is badly designed, here comes the players who know the "trick" to trivialize them and claim that the enemy is easy. These people arn't understanding the actual issues with things, and are only upset when it happens to directly effect them.

[Dishonored]

Saryn 1 Delete Bombard if you combine with her 3 
😂👌

[Xarteros]

On 2018-10-04 at 9:02 AM, angias said:

-snip-

Also mesa's one too.

Mesa's 1st power is actually great for heavy hitting weapons like Opticor and Lanka. It provides a sizable boost to the weapon's pre-elemental/pre-crit damage, so anything that crits nice and heavy with a few elements on it tends to scale up deliciously.

Like, I use her 1st power to one-shot all the heavy dropships on PoE during late-tier bounties.

[angias]

Il y a 3 heures, Xarteros a dit :

Mesa's 1st power is actually great for heavy hitting weapons like Opticor and Lanka. It provides a sizable boost to the weapon's pre-elemental/pre-crit damage, so anything that crits nice and heavy with a few elements on it tends to scale up deliciously.

Like, I use her 1st power to one-shot all the heavy dropships on PoE during late-tier bounties.

Actually didn't knew that.

I'll try it has soon has i can.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

3 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Mesa's 1st power is actually great for heavy hitting weapons like Opticor and Lanka. It provides a sizable boost to the weapon's pre-elemental/pre-crit damage, so anything that crits nice and heavy with a few elements on it tends to scale up deliciously.

Like, I use her 1st power to one-shot all the heavy dropships on PoE during late-tier bounties.

Hold up, that's how it works? Well hot dang! I'll need to try this out later tonight

[Zeclem]

On 2018-10-04 at 4:35 AM, MirageKnight said:

Stopped reading right here. 

Spores right now is arguably THE most most powerful 1 out there, to the point where it actually rivals some Ults in terms of being able to kill large numbers of mooks in a short time span. For a 1, it's stupidly broken and overpowered. No starting ability should be able to wipe a room.

yeah when her entire kit is based around her spores, its bound to be op. and no, it doesnt wipe a room without interaction and time to get some damage. 

saryn does not need any nerfs, especially not when likes of mesa and equinox exists. shes only "op" in eso, and same can be said for several other frames as well. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Zeclem

[wiinston17]

I broke my "1" on my keyboard while playing as nidus and saryn as my mains. Had to rebind my 1 to a mouse button

[BDMblue]

Any 1 that fires a projectile weaker then a shot from your primary is useless. If your 1 fires bolts and does not kill a level 300 bombard it’s useless.