Can someone give me bullet points on why rivens are so terrible?

[Hypernaut1]

I really don't get the argument that they are terrible for the game. Improvements can be made, of course, but I don't get why there are so many vocal post that hate them

My bullet points why they're not bad for the game are

• gives weaker weapons a chance to be useful in sortie and other high end missions. I don't think the point was to make strong weapons weak in comparison, just to give us more options. So yes, that tiberon will still be awesome, but I'm not gimping myself heavily by taking my 4 forma Gorgon with an awesome riven. That's how the game USED to be. If you saw anyone with anything but the meta, they weren't going to be doing optimal damage. Rivens eliminated that for the most part.

• it's an excellent time and resource sink. As a vet I can always use kuva and I always have a use for kuva. As a vet rivens are STILL a relevant reward. If I dont use it, i can sell it. I think it's one of the best end game mehanics in Warframe. It gets me to try forgotten weapons and try to make them beastly. Before rivens I had 10 weapons that iwould cycle with no real reason to revisit rank and dump weapons. Before rivens I wouldve never dusted off my cyclon again, or my serata. 

• makes modding interesting again. Before rivens I pretty much copy pasted a crit or status build onto every weapon. Rivens haven't solved all modding issues, but it's become a bit more dynamic now. My zenith has an insane fire rate thanks to a riven. I would've never really discovered that without them. I have weapons with 2 different rivens that change how they play, yet both are effective (I'm at cap now though, so I need to decide which one to get rid of soon). 

• its broken up the meta a lot compared to before. Before rivens many loadouts looked exactly the same. A boltor,soma, gammacor, etc. There still are popular weapons, but they aren't as ubiquitous as they used to be. It's far more interesting now to see someone bring an awesome buzlok to a sortie and ask them what Riven they have than seeing the same old copy paste builds made popular by a tuber in every mission. My Arca is still an awesome shotgun, but I can do pretty much just as well with my Boar prime. I don't feel forced to use the meta like i how I used to feel forced to use a boltor prime in high end missions.

To me rivens are one of the absolute best additions to the game. So I don't get the hate, or just don't understand it. Sure they make some powerful weapons even stronger, but not to the point where they break the game or force everyone to get only those weapons. RNG is RNG. Some hate it, some love it. Personally, I've never had to roll a riven more than 10- 25x to get good stats. 

If you feel otherwise let me hear it. Try to be more specific than "ruins the modding system" and explain why. It's easy to throw out a bunch of supposed flaws without explanation.

Don't get my won't though, I'm not saying they're perfect. There's definitely some changes and improvements I would love to see, but despite that I still don't get the hate.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

People cant get the rivens they want and get jealous when others do. Rivens also shift the meta.

[GnarlsDarkley]

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

its broken

You gave the answer yourself. Rivens are broken. IF they would update the Dispostion every week I maybe could agree with "Rivens are a good addition" but with Tiberon Prime, Gram Prime, Sicarus Prime, etc etc having 5/5 it's kinda bs.

You still use the same mods as a non-Riven loadout just with an extra juicy 300~500% dmg, CC or what not. 

 

And no they haven't broken up the meta, they shifted to meta to once weak weapons who got a prime (see above arguments). 5x3/6x3 without all having a "godly" Lanka Riven is impossible

Edited October 27, 2018 by GnarlsDarkley

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

People cant get the rivens they want and get jealous when others do. Rivens also shift the meta.

I'm trying to see if it goes beyond riven envy.

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

You gave the answer yourself. Rivens are broken. IF they would update the Dispostion every week I maybe could agree with "Rivens are a good addition" but with Tiberon Prime, Gram Prime, Sicarus Prime, etc etc having 5/5 it's kinda bs.

You still use the same mods as a non-Riven loadout just with an extra juicy 300~500% dmg, CC or what not. 

Why does it matter that a few lucky people have extra awesome gram primes? Seriously? I don't see the big problem. We are allowed to have strong weapons as long as they aren't ruining missions by trivializing everything. 

[GnarlsDarkley]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't see the big problem.

I made an objective argument why Rivens are bad. If you think an imbalance in a game where most (maybe just many) of the players are powercreeping is good then this whole discussion is pointless

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

Rivens are combo mods with random ups and downs. 

Instead of 3 mods taking up slots you have the one and then add the others for more damage...which is not a change up but more of.

It is kind of like getting cake to go along with your breakfast donut- you already have the sweet...but now you getting more sweetness but with no real essential nutrient. 

What Rivens show is that mods should become modular as that is basically what they do. You can add one mod into another mod already slotted and the two combine. But instead, they made a slot machine that is controlled by a mining material instead of real world money.

At least that is my take on it.

[Synpai]

On 2018-09-11 at 10:59 AM, Synpai said:

Haves vs HaveNots is very much a thing, that is driving riven economy through the roof and not "effort" because rather than "Hey I need to go farm until I get serration." It's "Hey I need to go farm until I get lucky enough to roll serration from a pure RNG list." It's a system of luck where someone can get a GOD roll for a strong weapon from unveiling, whilst another spends 200+ rolls to get nothing. Because of this reason alone, prices are absurd.

You can opt out just as easily, but your riven-less weapon is factually not the same as a weapon with any "appropriate" riven (Getting -damage is obviously a hindrance). This problem exists and the only counter is to get lucky or buy it, but the issue is that you may never get lucky. Pure RNG means you could theoretically roll hundreds of times and get garbage (or not at all and get perfection).

Weapons and their stats change, mods change, variants happen. Meaning your 300+ rolled riven has less value than a riven that has the same stats but one roll (because it has the chance to change or improve if needed). This means that when it comes to Riven's there's no progression and that effort is not being rewarded. The Riven system could have scaled stats based on the MR of the person using it (instead of arbitrarily coming with a MR lock value).

 

The purpose of rivens was to "balance out" the weapons, or at least give lesser used/powered weapons a chance. Which is why I believe all weapons should just have a "Riven Imprint" (could still take up a mod slot) that is unlocked via plat or by doing challenges (maybe doing x headshots or kills using the weapon). Such that players could trade their "Riven imprints" with others so long as they both had them unlocked. That way every weapon can have a riven and everyone can get one (just would take time to finish the challenge/to the stats wanted, but not as much as currently).

 Anyone with a bar chart can tell you what happens when you give rivens to a select few weapons (because it's random and has a cap you CANNOT get a riven for every weapon). Only SOME weapons grow in strength, and the cap only ensures that players have to be selective (Other than a few rivens I'm saving for variants I don't bother with garbage weapons I.e: Embolist).

These last points are debatable, but I really wish normal rolls cost a higher, more appropriate value in credits and holding stats cost Kuva just as much as I wish Riven's had interesting effects (like chain lightnings on third hits, or slowing enemies on crits, etc) and not percentage gains. We have a whole currency that we really can't use up thorough normal play (not to mention it would allow people to PLAY the game in any fashion and still be able to get rolls without necessarily having to hardcore farm for days on end, but still allowing the option). Games like Diablo 3 and The Divsion have systems similar to this, and it at least takes out SOME of the RNG (not to mention they typically have ways to obtain these things in base gameplay or through in game purchases/crafting. Rivens don't really accomplish their goal, but could have rewarded dedication to weapons, had intersting effects and used the more common currency to allow experimentation or allow people to streamline rolling as opposed to bottle-necking with pure RNG.

1. When it comes to Riven's there's no progression and that effort is not being rewarded. The Riven system could have scaled stats based on the MR of the person using it (instead of arbitrarily coming with a MR lock value). You can unveil a god tier riven or roll 200 times and get nothing of much value due to the pure RNG nature. Rivens do not reflect effort or dedication to a weapon, just luck.

2. Lack of access and control causes inflation of prices. Another victim of the RNG system. Due to the lack of access players have to choose between which weapons are improved, and sorry to burst your bubble but the weapons won't be that bad to begin with unless you're waiting for variants.

3. They do not actually make underrated weapons better. Most of the weapons they make better, actually weren't that bad to begin with. It's a % based gain, so lower tier weapons cannot, even with a great roll match that of higher tier weapons. Embolist, Furis, Cestra, etc. can barely hold a candle to the Pyrana Prime, Lex (+variations), Marelok (+variations) before rivens are even involved. With rivens....I mean 3000% damage on the furis would still be laugable compared to like 300% on the Miter.

4. % gains are not "interesting" they provide no room for experimentation. Negatives are only sometimes an issue and weapons are very clear cut with which stats are beneficial.

5. Re-roll economy is terrible. Whole new resource that players can't really get through normal means of gameplay meanwhile we have access to more credits than we can ever spend with no way to sink them (of course the cost of rolls would have to be higher, but still). It's fine to be pure RNG with something like credits due to the sheer quantity you obtain through any means of play, while Kuva could've been for special rolls.

[Guest]

• Way too many layers of RNG, at very least there should be a way to lock one stat
• The disposition mechanic was pretty questionable to begin with, DE refusing to update dispos makes it even worse
• There's a very small set of stats that are considered "good" (though this problem is mostly caused by the damage system itself)
• DE has driven themselves to a corner, there's no way to fix any of these issues without pissing off a huge amount of players (because obviously their trades are more important than what's good for the game)

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Why does it matter that a few lucky people have extra awesome gram primes? Seriously? I don't see the big problem. We are allowed to have strong weapons as long as they aren't ruining missions by trivializing everything. 

I don't mind it either. Sometimes I get lucky with an obscenely powerful riven, sometimes I don't. I think most people end up getting a great roll and not even realizing it because of having a great understanding of Warframes mechanics and potential. 

For example, I have..

Staticor-Geli-ignidex

+40.7% SC
+45% Heat
+46% Cold
-16% Dmg to Infested

And I'm often told to reroll it. Makes no sense when I can have a corrosive, radiation, and blast on a weapon with +90% SC, armor stripping capabilities, CC capabilities and radiation effects on a secondary so it has tons of multishot. 

Nobody understands this because it doesn't have CC CD and MS/DMG so its trash.

Most players in Warframe now unfortunately run to the frums to cry about EVERYTHING. DE ________ too hard. DE _________ unfair. Which is why we dont have any challenge left in this game. So rivens just fall into that category in my opinion.

[SirKnum]

Tl;dr of the posts of Synpai and Pr1A:

- RNG

- not all guns are the same

- I need to move out of my comfort zone to get Kuva and/or trade for plat

 

Really strong argument!

[Gabbynaru]

• Spoiler

  The only difference is that you don't pay real money for each roll.

   

[Volinus7]

Interesting 

Any Warframe youtubers want to do 10000 riven rolls compilation? 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Volinus7

[Hypernaut1]

7 minutes ago, Synpai said:

1. When it comes to Riven's there's no progression and that effort is not being rewarded. The Riven system could have scaled stats based on the MR of the person using it (instead of arbitrarily coming with a MR lock value). You can unveil a god tier riven or roll 200 times and get nothing of much value due to the pure RNG nature. Rivens do not reflect effort or dedication to a weapon, just luck.

2. Lack of access and control causes inflation of prices. Another victim of the RNG system. Due to the lack of access players have to choose between which weapons are improved, and sorry to burst your bubble but the weapons won't be that bad to begin with unless you're waiting for variants.

3. They do not actually make underrated weapons better. Most of the weapons they make better, actually weren't that bad to begin with. It's a % based gain, so lower tier weapons cannot, even with a great roll match that of higher tier weapons. Embolist, Furis, Cestra, etc. can barely hold a candle to the Pyrana Prime, Lex (+variations), Marelok (+variations) before rivens are even involved. With rivens....I mean 3000% damage on the furis would still be laugable compared to like 300% on the Miter.

4. % gains are not "interesting" they provide no room for experimentation. Negatives are only sometimes an issue and weapons are very clear cut with which stats are beneficial.

5. Re-roll economy is terrible. Whole new resource that players can't really get through normal means of gameplay meanwhile we have access to more credits than we can ever spend with no way to sink them (of course the cost of rolls would have to be higher, but still). It's fine to be pure RNG with something like credits due to the sheer quantity you obtain through any means of play, while Kuva could've been for special rolls.

1. I disagree. There's is progression. A vet with 90 will have a stronger arsenal petal than without any. That's progression to me.  

2. market prices are irrelevant. You're not supposed to always choose what you get. It's a staple of ARPGs. For the most part, it's easy to buy a Riven if you aren't chasing the meta. And if you have ameta weapon, you don't NEED a riven for it anyway. Rivens take you out of your comfort zone and ask you to try weapons other than your favorites.

3.i disagree. My furis with a riven is awesome and I take it into high end missions. Yes, a euphona with a riven can still be stronger, but so what? Not everyone will have a euphona riven.

4. I agree that stats could more interesting. That doesn't make rivens terrible. It's an issue where it can use improvement. Doesn't ruin the game and the game is still better for having rivens

5. I disagree here. I get enough kuva through sorties and floods to satisfying my riven rolling. Personally I don't obsess over perfect rollszl, so I roll as I get them. I don't stress it and burn myself out over trying to acquire 50k kuva a day.

 

These are just my takes on things. I'm no authority, so don't get offended.

[Sloan441]

They're bad for two reasons: 

1) The dispositions aren't updated with new weapons. So you see easily avoided issues like with Gram Prime and Tiberon Prime--which aren't avoided and bloody well should be. 

2) Desired rivens can't be reliably farmed. You have to rely on buying the rivens you want from fellow players, not from playing the game. This flies in the face of the actual goal of, well, actually playing the game. 

The system isn't going anywhere at this point, but it's badly implemented and desperately needing some revision--the above being very egregious reasons why. 

 

[Lazarow]

Speaking of rivens and Gram Prime, I hope that melee 3.0 brings better stats for all melee so they can compete with Gram Prime and its 5/5 disposition, if that doesnt happen....

Spoiler

....nerf Gram Prime *grabs popcorn*

 

[Kialandi]

Rivens are good in theory, but not in practice. 

• Weak weapons stay weak and good weapons get even better. Embolist is still garbage even with a god-roll Riven.
• Dispositions haven't changed for over a year. Apparently Tiberon Prime is rarely used.
• Rivens changed almost nothing when it comes to builds. You will still use Serration, Split Chamber etc. along with your multishot/damage Riven.
• Rivens are glorified slot machines. Sure you don't have to pay real money for them but you have to pay with lots of your time.

[SneakyErvin]

The problem is that the dispo hasnt been looked into for a long long long long long time aswell as some new weapons getting released with a strong dispo just because it had an unpopular/weak non-prime variant, like Tiberon and Gram for example.

If they did quarterly dispo changes based on use, or simply made dispo changes made on actual weapon stats there really wouldnt be an issue with rivens.

In a perfect setting all rivens would have a dispo value based around the weapons stat distribution and not popularity as it is claimed to be now. Primes, vandals, wraiths etc would have the same dispo, based on the highest "tier" weapon within the category. So for example a Braton that has 3 different "tiers" would be based on the prime variant stats budget (or whatever they use when they design weapons), same deal with Gram and Tiberon.

This would in the end mean that a Tonbo, Lesion, Orthos P and a Kripath would be close to equal with a riven equipped.

For weapons that still dont have several tiers/versions there would be a dispo rebalance when they get one. So for instance now a Tonbo would sit at a strong dispo just as it does, but if a prime version gets released that is better, the dispo would change accordingly based on that.

They could also tie the disposition value to the weapon as a scaling mechanic so for instance a Gram would get stats as if it had strong dispo but the prime version would scale as if it was of a weaker dispo. This would however be counter productive since a regular Gram could with the right stats be as good as the Prime, which would be a step backwards in actual progression. So basing it on the highest tier of a weapon type would be the best since it would keep the idea of progression.

[DeMonkey]

On 2018-10-23 at 12:34 AM, DeMonkey said:

Because they no longer follow their design intent?

Because weapons that could actually use Rivens have stupidly low dispositions, whilst blatant powercreep has high dispositions making them more creepy?

Because the games balance would actually be better off without them in their current state?

Because DE have admitted dropping the ball when it comes to them, and it's always good to see people actually doing something after such a statement?

If only someone had already posted this somewhere where you would see it...

49 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you feel otherwise let me hear it.

And yet no matter how many times people do, you don't listen, you're so incredibly dead set on this "Riven Envy" train of thought that you cannot see any other opinion as even remotely valid.

It's even reached the point where you're so intent on not listening that you just type completely dismissive responses and demand I ignore you.

[trst]

Really the major reasons people dislike them are:

• Rolling a perfect "godly" Riven is "too" difficult and rng reliant
  • On top of too many people believe every non-perfect Riven is literally useless
• People believe that other players charging 10k+ platinum and other playing willingly spending that is an issue
  • As well as believing that this is some Corpus-level scheme by DE to milk us for money despite the fact that players set these prices, not DE
• People think that making a weapon go from dealing 2x an enemies max health to 4x an enemies max health is a balance problem
  • This also compounds with the previous issue despite the fact that DE does not want us spending 1+ hours in endless missions

 

Rivens do need work done to them but the issue is so grossly overinflated by players that it's outright laughable at this point.

[TouFuub]

One simple bullet point:

• Why adding in controversial balance system when you can actually make effort to weapon balancing in the beginning?

Haven't they done such weapon balancing with e.g. Sicarus Prime?

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

If only someone had already posted this somewhere where you would see it...

And yet no matter how many times people do, you don't listen, you're so incredibly dead set on this "Riven Envy" train of thought that you cannot see any other opinion as even remotely valid.

It's even reached the point where you're so intent on not listening that you just type completely dismissive responses and demand I ignore you.

Sigh. Thank you for calling me out master debator. Bye now.

[Yagamilight123]

hace 1 hora, Hypernaut1 dijo:

I really don't get the argument that they are terrible for the game. Improvements can be made, of course, but I don't get why there are so many vocal post that hate them

My bullet points why they're not bad for the game are

• gives weaker weapons a chance to be useful in sortie and other high end missions. I don't think the point was to make strong weapons weak in comparison, just to give us more options. So yes, that tiberon will still be awesome, but I'm not gimping myself heavily by taking my 4 forma Gorgon with an awesome riven. That's how the game USED to be. If you saw anyone with anything but the meta, they weren't going to be doing optimal damage. Rivens eliminated that for the most part.

• it's an excellent time and resource sink. As a vet I can always use kuva and I always have a use for kuva. As a vet rivens are STILL a relevant reward. If I dont use it, i can sell it. I think it's one of the best end game mehanics in Warframe. It gets me to try forgotten weapons and try to make them beastly. Before rivens I had 10 weapons that iwould cycle with no real reason to revisit rank and dump weapons. Before rivens I wouldve never dusted off my cyclon again, or my serata. 

• makes modding interesting again. Before rivens I pretty much copy pasted a crit or status build onto every weapon. Rivens haven't solved all modding issues, but it's become a bit more dynamic now. My zenith has an insane fire rate thanks to a riven. I would've never really discovered that without them. I have weapons with 2 different rivens that change how they play, yet both are effective (I'm at cap now though, so I need to decide which one to get rid of soon). 

• its broken up the meta a lot compared to before. Before rivens many loadouts looked exactly the same. A boltor,soma, gammacor, etc. There still are popular weapons, but they aren't as ubiquitous as they used to be. It's far more interesting now to see someone bring an awesome buzlok to a sortie and ask them what Riven they have than seeing the same old copy paste builds made popular by a tuber in every mission. My Arca is still an awesome shotgun, but I can do pretty much just as well with my Boar prime. I don't feel forced to use the meta like i how I used to feel forced to use a boltor prime in high end missions.

To me rivens are one of the absolute best additions to the game. So I don't get the hate, or just don't understand it. Sure they make some powerful weapons even stronger, but not to the point where they break the game or force everyone to get only those weapons. RNG is RNG. Some hate it, some love it. Personally, I've never had to roll a riven more than 10- 25x to get good stats. 

If you feel otherwise let me hear it. Try to be more specific than "ruins the modding system" and explain why. It's easy to throw out a bunch of supposed flaws without explanation.

Don't get my won't though, I'm not saying they're perfect. There's definitely some changes and improvements I would love to see, but despite that I still don't get the hate.

The only argument is that people that start that type of threads are the ones that cant get a riven for the weapon they want or pay for them .

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

If only someone had already posted this somewhere where you would see it...

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Honestly, the disposition of weapons frequency doesn't alter gameplay*. 

We all know Gram and Tiberon will get a disposition nerf. Why get all bent out of shape that it hasn't happened immediately?

Also, the games balance is a problem that players want (not including myself). Notice how most players say the problem with rivens are "you cant roll what you want" or "lock in a stat" rather than they throw off the balance of the game in their existence.

Edited October 27, 2018 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

We all know Gram and Tiberon will get a disposition nerf. Why get all bent out of shape that it hasn't happened immediately?

The problem isn't that it's eventually going to happen the problem is that there is no consistant system..... it just happens whenever and when it happens it is likely to be a massive disposition swing from 5 all the way down to 1 or 2. That kind of massive irregular swing is just going to end up doing is making even more people upset. 

Rivens need to be consistently re balanced in reasonable increments instead of the "it happens whenever it happens and wow that's gonna be a doozy"