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[DE]Rebecca

Discord, Chat, GOTL and more - updates & conclusions!

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My clan is trying to step in as a GOTL replacement. We have a heavily moderated discord, rules are simply "help anybody of any rank and don't be a d*ck". We have a focus on newbies, bring them in, give them full access to the research labs, and once they have a decent grip of the game and a higher MR, we choose to let them either leave the clan and venture out on their own, or become new mentors and help the newbies. We're still a clan of only 5 but always taking in newer members or experienced ones to help

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Alright, so is all bug reporting going to be in the discord now, then? Or is DE looking at the forums for bug reports too? Does anyone know if DE has beta testers testing updates before they're released?

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7 hours ago, TheArQu said:

So warframe is still M rated game with PG13 chat filter... greeeeaaaat... 

Warframe is rated "M" by the ESRB for (and I quote) "Violence, Blood and Gore".  It is NOT rated to contain other things that would separately result in an M rating.  M is a level, not a category.  Also, the ESRB covers game content, it does not cover online interactions with other players.  Feel free to check the ESRB site for details, as they record the ratings and such for games.
 

3 hours ago, RottedApples said:

ok but just to make sure you are banning this when it's spam and not just blacklisting the word trap or other such words that, while could, but for some rarely do, have negative connotations are also part of normal speech?

also i've heard some rumors and seen a couple deleted messages but i swear to god "owo" better not actually be a blacklisted word now.

  • The word "trap" by itself should not result in any action.  Using it to describe an entity in a gender-related way does earn some action.  If you used it in a different way and the bot got triggered anyways, send a support ticket.
  • The word "owo" by itself is removed as spam if it's the only thing in the message, because people will spam it until actual conversation is not possible (people trying to actually chat get scrolled off the screen).  Using "owo" in a sentence where you're actually chatting is fine.
     
2 hours ago, -CM-Kinnison said:

I still cannot mention the full name of an Actor, in a Relay chat, who starred in a show named after himself, and had a co-star named Mary Tyler Moore. Also was in the first "Night at the Museum" movie as a villain.  I got a one week chat suspension. But obvious vulgar words that start with F, S, and A are perfectly acceptable

so, the idea "We will be improving Kickbot’s responsiveness and informative nature if kicks occur, "  Seems way overdue

I can see why the bot wouldn't like that one word in the name, but the bot should only act if it's used in a similar context.  Definitely send a support ticket if it still happens nowadays by simply mentioning the name.
 

2 hours ago, notlamprey said:

If in-game chat is indeed seen as "a privilege, not a right" then

Then it matches the way many MMOs treat public chat channels.  Almost every MMO out there has some form of chat mute or restriction system, even if they rarely if ever use it.  For example I had no idea Mabinogi had a chat mute system (implemented as a status effect on the character) for the first few years I played it, until I saw somebody get muted at a GM/staff event in-game.  In comparison Runescape players earn mutes every so often, and on the far side of things there's entire levels and mechanics for mutes and chat punishment systems for League of Legends.

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5 hours ago, Rydia said:

But now people are nitpicking DE's feelings and wording and not validating their point of view, while simultaneously demanding their points of view be validated.

Last time I checked, this is a natural consequence I expect when I'm paying for a service.  You seem to shun the rights of consumers and customers, and I wonder why.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rydian said:

Then it matches the way many MMOs treat public chat channels.  Almost every MMO out there has some form of chat mute or restriction system, even if they rarely if ever use it.  For example I had no idea Mabinogi had a chat mute system (implemented as a status effect on the character) for the first few years I played it, until I saw somebody get muted at a GM/staff event in-game.  In comparison Runescape players earn mutes every so often, and on the far side of things there's entire levels and mechanics for mutes and chat punishment systems for League of Legends.

I'll rephrase and expand, to clear up any misunderstanding.

I'm aware that the policies associated with "privilege, not a right" are relatively standard for online games. I respond not only to the letter of DE's statement, but also to what I believe is its spirit. This is a statement from DE that sits adjacent to a long-running history of what some would call the "lying and implying" approach towards the frustration and displeasure of players with regard to DE's in-game (and sometimes forum) moderation practices.

It is insinuated that players "bay for blood," that they "witch hunt," that they only care about "mob justice." None of these insinuations are necessary, even if DE believes them to be accurate. These suggestions do nothing to improve the situation, and there is no reasonable expectation that dialogue can smooth over the disconnect. With that in mind, I believe they simply shouldn't be publicly aired. It's unprofessional, but more than that it's unbecoming of adults.

If only that were the full extent of the problem, but it isn't. I think a path to reconciliation is important and necessary, but we should also consider just how long the abuse of position and authority by certain volunteers was allowed to continue. We should consider just how widely it spread, both inside and outside the game. DE could and should reasonably have known and acted to curb it long before they eventually did. I am not saying there is no path back to reconciliation, but we would be foolish to forget it all.

Viewed in that light, I am not disposed to receive DE's statement in a neutral manner. Context matters, and in this case the context compels me to be cautious.

Edited by notlamprey
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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the update. It's progress. Thoughts, opinions, and suggestions below.

Regarding chat moderation, if the filter's sensitivity to certain words and phrases cannot or will not be addressed at this time (or in the near future), a vital feature should be a message telling members why they are banned and for how long. It should remain for the duration of their chat ban.

Regarding the new endorsements system, sounds great on the surface, but the endorsements portion of the system is a mistake and a disaster waiting to happen. Is the idea to encourage Tenno to be helpful? We're already helpful. Why create a needless extra system?

Take a moment to really consider what you're about to create. You're unintentionally going to monetize the spirit right out of being a helpful Tenno. Once you create a system where a helpful Tenno is rewarded with some assigned numeric, something of value (anything), some cosmetic, you turn a gift into a transaction (between the helped and the helper) and a competition (between helpful Tenno).

I know you guys like to create new systems, reward tiers, and incentives, but this is one area where the system you're proposing will fail to address the real problem.  

Why do we help others? We do it because someone else helped us, or maybe because no one did and we want the next person's journey to be easier. We do it because it feels great. We do it because we want to teach the next generation to do better, be better, to pass it on.

We don't do it for upvotes, perks, reputation, or endorsements. 

The Guides program sought to vet helpful Tenno and then make them easily identifiable to new players. That's the core.

Getting back to just that core, I'd set aside the vetting part (initially, at least) and give every player a Guide flag. They could toggle their Guide flag to On or Off Duty, and hang out in a dedicated server. The flag will be visible beside their name and in their profile. (Doesn't have to be a flag.) I will offer, once again, these suggestions for a Member's Help server.

As for why I'd set aside vetting entirely (to begin with), that's because there's no one vetting us when we help clan mates and friends, randoms, public squad members, people on the forum or the subreddit or Twitter. We just help. At least initially, I think you could test it as is and see what stats you get back. 

If a reporting system is needed (to measure new member satisfaction with the help the received), those reports should go directly to DE (or support), their results never public. If a Guide keeps getting written up for giving terrible advice or taking new members head-first into fire-fights and Eidolon hunts and then berating their squad of confused Tenno, DE can revoke their access to the Guide flag system for X weeks and send that member an in-game message (via Ordis) scolding them and telling them to do better.

If a Guide keeps getting great feedback, they keep their flag and keep helping folks.

If the flags are given out on a trial basis for the community as a whole, it could be run a few weeks/months at a time, then closed to digest all the feedback internally.

Aside from that, I think creating a ticket or flag system or a separate new member queue could work.

Ticket/flag system

Spoiler
  • Experienced Tenno with time on their hands put up their "Guide On Duty" flag
  • New and confused Tenno put up their "Help!" flag or file a "Help!" ticket
  • All Tenno with On Duty flags up can click on the "Help!" and are matched with those who need help. Once a squad is full, the Help flag or ticket comes down.
 

New Member Queue 

Spoiler
  • Repurpose the code that creates queues for Eidolon hunting, or multiple instances of relays/zone hubs, or differentiates between Fissure, Nightmare, and normal nodes/missions
  • Experienced Tenno with time on their hands put up their "Guide On Duty" flag, lining them up for matchmaking with newer Tenno
  • Once a New and confused Tenno chooses a mission node, their auto-matched with an On Duty Tenno to help them complete X mission
1

I honestly think getting back to just the core, the basics, should be tried first. Forget about rewarding and acknowledging helpful Tenno. Focus on finding a way to make helping Tenno easier. If that system succeeds, then you can think about rewards if you insist, but rewards are completely unnecessary, imo.

As for the now retired GotL, I'd like to thank all the guides who faithfully executed their mission statement. Volunteering your time in a public-facing way isn't easy. To all of you who always did your best to help others, well done.

Regarding the GotL armor and cosmetics, maybe exclusive armor and cosmetics for a group of helpful Tenno did bother other Tenno who were also helpful but not a part of that group. Maybe it was a bad look on DE's part. But what's done is done, and the GotL armor and cosmetics should remain with those now retired Guides. 

What's more important is ironing out how to match guides to new Tenno.

As for Rebecca's choice words in the OP, we could focus on the tone and phrasing, or we could focus on progress. I think we should focus on progress, just as so many asked DE (and the community) to focus on progress and ignore Rahetalius' tone, choice words, and delivery. His videos had a core message that, at their heart, came from the right place, even if he could've delivered it with more objectivity and less sensationalism. 

The same is true here: don't lose sight of the core message. Remember that at its heart the post is about progress. It's not perfect, but neither was the criticism that brought us to this point.

Yes, we do hold DE to a higher standard than the playerbase as a company and a service provider.

Yes, it's tricky when the company is as tight with the community as they are.

Yes, I wish Rebecca's OP had a stronger acknowledgment of what went wrong and that DE takes full responsibility (I'm not looking for a hanging), but that clearly isn't going to happen.

I'll take this and hope we keep moving forward, not backward.

Edited by Rhekemi
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Being a Guide has been a both a pleasure and a job for me. There have been days I haven't felt like logging into the game at all because I was just too tired to handle it. There have been other days I've been so energized and excited by the response I've gotten from helping people that I can't wait to log in when I get off of work. There's been amazing days, bad days, and more often than not just normal days, and I wouldn't change any of it. Despite my working situation changing and me progressively getting less time to devote to Guiding, it's been an integral part of why I play Warframe for far longer than I've officially been titled, "Guide." The ending of this program is extremely bitter sweet for me. On one had, I know I need the mental space to breathe, on the other, I will miss it wholeheartedly as much for what it stood for as the people I got to meet in and out of it. Through Warframe I have met some of the most amazing people I've ever had the luck to encounter. This game, more specifically the community this game fosters, has changed my life in pivotal ways I never could have imagined when I first picked it up something like six years ago. Being a Guide of the Lotus has been integral to much of that time, but loosing it will, I hope, lead to a new beginning with bigger and better things.

No matter the fact that the Guide of the Lotus program is over, none of us nor the vast number of people doing what we do without the fancy title, are going to stop. We're still going to be out there answering questions, helping people one on one, bug reporting, and otherwise supporting this community with everything we have. It's just part of who we are. I sincerely thank anyone and everyone for supporting it in their own way, and I especially thank the people who looked at us and followed our example without any prompting or reward. You're the ones who really helped make this community what it is, and that legacy will not be ending just with the GotL program being over. This community is amazing. We have some bad apples, to be sure, but any group of people will. With luck and support, I think DE can make a really good thing out of this suggested new program, and I'll be happy to help it succeed as best as I can. So thank you all for your kind words, criticisms where they're due, jokes, and everything else you've done to make our community what it is.

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🎵 This is the dawning of the Age of Entitlement 🎵

Seriously though, as someone who just likes to play this free game, these changes seem good. 👍

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9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Out of curiosity, what will happen to the GOTL armour?

Hopefully it goes away, as it was part of the reason GOTL became a bit of a kakshow in the 1st place. People joining for the sake of armour and not to actually be helpful to newer players.

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Can we get access to the GOTL armor via a Mini Event/Tactical Alert or somekind of Discord reward in the new Official one? After seeing that armor in game it would be a shame to see it vanish forever. 

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Just now, esfulador said:

Can we get access to the GOTL armor via a Mini Event/Tactical Alert or somekind of Discord reward in the new Official one? After seeing that armor in game it would be a shame to see it vanish forever. 

It's not gone forever, former guides have it still.

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3 hours ago, Rydian said:

Warframe is rated "M" by the ESRB for (and I quote) "Violence, Blood and Gore".  It is NOT rated to contain other things that would separately result in an M rating.  M is a level, not a category.  Also, the ESRB covers game content, it does not cover online interactions with other players.  Feel free to check the ESRB site for details, as they record the ratings and such for games.

 

As a polite correction:
As of 18/12/2018 (earliest date I could find) Warframe is rated on it's Youtube channel with "Users Interact".
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiH5O7bGTsU

From the ESRB website (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.aspx) :
"Users Interact - Indicates possible exposure to unfiltered/uncensored user-generated content, including user-to-user communications and media sharing via social media and networks".

Not that this matters, again it's DE's decision on how the game functions and not all chats are filtered/moderated, but the online interactions aspect is now covered, whether this be DE's own addition to their videos or a change in ESRB's assigned rating I don't know.

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I will point out a major flaw in just making any small meme word have the possibility of chat suspension or ban. Any mean veteran player can just go ahead and tell noobs who dont know the chat system to type those things in. Actually a pretty common thing that happens right now and if you make a more global GOTL like system whats gonna end up happening is some real scummy people are gonna have a big "Reputable, you can trust me" tag slapped on them so they can go around and use the chat filters against people.

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Is anyone else having trouble getting the roles they react for in the #welcome channel? I keep reacting for PC but nothing seems to happen.

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Just one thing noob is a term usually use in a derogatory manner to demean said person of being new to a game. The term newbie is the you'd wan to use in your official statement,  as it means someone that is inexperienced.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

To be extremely clear: our in-game chat is a privilege, not a right. Anyone spamming ‘Nezha is a trap’ or other permutations of spam and then decree victimhood should not be surprised when we don't reverse suspensions.

"Spam"

Ah. Ok. I see how it is.

So in essence, you really don't have an intention to change, just to keep saying you are while continuing to feed outrage culture and take none of the complaints against doing so seriously.

I'm so surprised. No really. So, so surprised.

I'll be keeping Region turned off and continuing to warn anyone asking about the game what kind of... To put it as nice as I possibly can... "Unpopular people" moderate it. I expect nothing to change, as it hasn't the many times in the past, and all the same problems to reemerge wearing a new mask.

To anyone planning to respond to me: Save the apologetics. I've heard them all by this point. I'm just here to state my displeasure with hollow, deaf responses like this and move along.

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16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Out of curiosity, what will happen to the GOTL armour?

Wondering this too... And the other cosmetics. 

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Hey, since bug reporting for warframe on discord was mentioned in the post, I'd like to know how to officially do this properly in the correct place(s).

Do we bug report in the discord, or on the forums?
Are the forums still relevant for bug reports, or are they now obsolete in the face of discord?
Is DE taking bug reports on both discord and the forums (won't that be a bit more spammy and harder to sift through)?

Seriously though, what is going on with bug reporting?

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-05 at 12:12 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The main reason for this is simple:

Everyone wants to help, so why don't we open that up to the community at large!

Srry  but I need to be honest!, it's a cliché sentence...I can't stop to think it's linked with Reddit Drama. 

https://ibb.co/1X0MN77

 

Edited by (PS4)AleDiorio

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Michaelcf1 said:

As a polite correction:
As of 18/12/2018 (earliest date I could find) Warframe is rated on it's Youtube channel with "Users Interact".
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiH5O7bGTsU

From the ESRB website (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.aspx) :
"Users Interact - Indicates possible exposure to unfiltered/uncensored user-generated content, including user-to-user communications and media sharing via social media and networks".

Not that this matters, again it's DE's decision on how the game functions and not all chats are filtered/moderated, but the online interactions aspect is now covered, whether this be DE's own addition to their videos or a change in ESRB's assigned rating I don't know.

For some reason the ESRB has Waframe listed twice with the same info, differing in the mention of user interaction.

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=33895 (not rated)
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=10000951 (mentioned)

The first ID follows the format of current games (with a really recent game being ID 35640 for example), but the second ID doesn't seem to match the format of other games I checked out.

 

11 hours ago, KubrowTamer said:

I will point out a major flaw in just making any small meme word have the possibility of chat suspension or ban. Any mean veteran player can just go ahead and tell noobs who dont know the chat system to type those things in. Actually a pretty common thing that happens right now and if you make a more global GOTL like system whats gonna end up happening is some real scummy people are gonna have a big "Reputable, you can trust me" tag slapped on them so they can go around and use the chat filters against people.

That's the very first actionable offense listed in the chat moderator guidelines.

Quote

Moderators are authorized to act upon the following:

  • Baiting others to trigger Kickbot

    • Tricking players into sending messages, words, or terms that are flagged by Kickbot, resulting in the player being kicked from chat

And people certainly do get removed from chat for doing it (when they're caught).

 

9 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I expect nothing to change, as it hasn't the many times in the past

Some troublesome mods have been removed, the guidelines were redone and are publicly available on the website now, and DE hired professional moderators to help during off-hours.  That sounds like multiple changes to me.  If you still have concerns, there's some things you could do depending on what the concern is.

  • If the concern is about a policy or the rules, you could post feedback in the forums or send it to the community inbox.  If you think certain rules need re-wording or changing, if you think that some involved groups aren't working together in the way they should to solve problems, etc.  Of course it'd be best if you actually gave constructive feedback by outlining what the problem is and what change is needed to solve it.
     
  • If the concern is about a specific person or incident, please gather evidence or enough detailed information for support to find the incident in the server logs (like usernames and dates), and submit a support ticket to report the individual to get them taken care of.

 

 

Edited by Rydian
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